Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2005-09-27 03:17:48 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Thank the NSA, not NASA !! These two are very different organisations.

Thank them both, but NASA merits a whole lot more thanks. NSA's SELinux
is a dwarfed by NASA's contributions one way or another.

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Sharninder]

>>
>> I don't remember offhand if Cray has contributed anything, but did  
>> you
>> know that the NSA (the US National Security Agency) was  
>> responsible for
>> the development of SELinux? Not only did they contribute it back,  
>> most
>> distributions ship with it these days.-
>>
>
> Thanks - thats education and good to know and 3 cheers for NASA -  
> really

Thank the NSA, not NASA !! These two are very different organisations.

--
Sharninder


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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Sunday 25 Sep 2005 12:34 pm, Raj Mathur wrote:
> Despite a lot of searching, I have not been able to get a clear idea
> of the status of the User Group in Bangalore and Linux Bangalore --
> are either of them community or do they represent a single entity --

this discussion may help clarify your thoughts:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon/4841.html

-- 
regards
kg

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
ಇಂಡ್ಲಿನಕ್ಸ வாழ்க!

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2005-09-25 12:34:28 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> however, the moment you bring the Free Software part of FOSS into the
> picture you are implicitly acknowledging that the freedom aspect of
> software is at least as important to you as the technical aspects.

Maybe's it's being called FOSS.in as a sign that the "L" (Libre) isn't
important. :-)

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Raj Mathur]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> "Sandip" == Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Sandip> On Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sandip> wrote:
>> Call is social responsibility, call it a *"request from the
>> community"*

Sandip> Sounds more like dictating a social *duty*.

>> This, however, is from the view point of a community versus
>> corporate - where the community is the large amorphous mass
>> (whose collective resources base is large but individual
>> resource base disparately distributed) and the corporate are
>> the proprietory privateers (who have even larger private and
>> unshared resources) whose sole motive is profit, wherever it
>> may come from and whatever the cost. So is there a
>> responsibility with that freedom , to access code, to make
>> profits etc and my uneducated question is are they giving back
>> from where they have taken -

Sandip> Somehow there is this difference in attitude between Free
Sandip> software folks and the *BSD guys that keeps irritating me.

Sandip> Our main idea is to benefit the *community* right? By the
Sandip> community, for the community ... that is what we would
Sandip> want to say, right?

Sandip> So what is this antagonism towards people making money or
Sandip> people with wealth who are using this software? Why do we
Sandip> care? As long as the community keeps getting better and
Sandip> better over time, we have accomplished what we have to.

Sandip> When you use words like "responsibility" or "giving back",
Sandip> you *are* talking about strings attached to using Free
Sandip> software. If there are such strings, put them in the damn
Sandip> licence, otherwise nobody has the right to interpret the
Sandip> licence or its "spirit", whether they are Free or closed
Sandip> source software people.

I agree with Sandip: making money from FOSS is perfectly legitimate
(dammit, I do it myself!), and you cannot ask the user of a software
for anything beyond what the software license enjoins him/her to do.

However, we're digressing a bit from Pankaj's original questions,
which were purely about foss.in.  foss.in claims to be a community
FOSS event.  Pankaj, I and a number of other people whom I've talked
to seem to believe that both these adjectives are open to question.

1. Can you promote FOSS (note: this is different from ``Promote
Linux'') by promoting proprietary software?

The term FOSS espouses both the Free Software (freedom) and Open
Source (technological, commercial) views of software.  If it were a
purely OSS (Open Source Software) or Linux event, there would be no
issues; however, the moment you bring the Free Software part of FOSS
into the picture you are implicitly acknowledging that the freedom
aspect of software is at least as important to you as the technical
aspects.  In those circumstances promoting proprietary software
contradicts the stance that you claim to have taken.

2. Until one has a clear idea of how much money is going into whose
pockets, calling the event a community event is completely wrong.

Despite a lot of searching, I have not been able to get a clear idea
of the status of the User Group in Bangalore and Linux Bangalore --
are either of them community or do they represent a single entity --
which is the reason the foss.in promoters need to clarify and set the
minds of the community at rest as soon as possible.  If that is not
done the only conclusion that I will be able to draw is that the event
is masquerading as a community event while actually being a means of
making money for a single entity.

I didn't see Atul Chitnis' response to my earlier queries in the
thread he had jumped into earlier.  Either he's busy or he considers
these questions not worth answering.  However, I believe that both
questions are important to the Indian Linux community and need to be
addressed.

Regards,

- -- Raju
- -- 
Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://kandalaya.org/
   GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5  0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F
  It is the mind that moves
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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Sandip Bhattacharya]

On Saturday, 24 Sep 2005 12:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Call
> is social responsibility, call it a *"request from the community"*
>

Sounds more like dictating a social *duty*.

> This, however,  is from the view point of a community versus corporate
>   - where the community is the large amorphous mass (whose collective
> resources base is large but individual resource base disparately
> distributed) and the corporate are the proprietory privateers (who have
> even larger private and unshared resources) whose sole motive is profit,
> wherever it may come from and whatever the cost. So is there a
> responsibility with that freedom , to access code, to make profits etc
> and my uneducated question  is are they giving back from where they have
> taken -
>

Somehow there is this difference in attitude between Free software folks and 
the *BSD guys that keeps irritating me. 

Our main idea is to benefit the *community* right? By the community, for the 
community ... that is what we would want to say, right?

So what is this antagonism towards people making money or people with wealth 
who are using this software? Why do we care? As long as the community keeps 
getting better and better over time, we have accomplished what we have to. 

When you use words like "responsibility" or "giving back", you *are* talking 
about strings attached to using Free software. If there are such strings, put 
them in the damn licence, otherwise nobody has the right to interpret the 
licence or its "spirit", whether they are Free or closed source software 
people.

- Sandip


-- 
Sandip Bhattacharya  *Puroga Technologies   * [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Work: http://www.puroga.com  *   Home/Blog: http://www.sandipb.net/blog

PGP/GPG Signature: 51A4 6C57 4BC6 8C82 6A65 AE78 B1A1 2280 A129 0FF3

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

Now I'm confused.

At 2005-09-24 12:39:26 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> There is that cliched statement of freedom - "ones freedom ends when
> it begins to affect anothers" [...]
>
> they are not (rather should not be) free to choose to *not contribute*

Why not? And what are you saying they should contribute, exactly?
And how do their decisions in this regard affect your own freedom?

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote:
> At 2005-09-23 16:35:27 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>What does Cray / NaSA and the likes actually give to the community -
>>will they give their source code - ever. I have my doubts - so then
>>what is their stake ?
> 
> 
> NASA has contributed a *lot* to Linux. Donald Becker's work at NASA is
> how Linux first got into the supercomputing space (Beowulf), and he's
> the reason the kernel has such excellent Ethernet device support. Ask
> Google about "cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov" sometime.
> 
> I don't remember offhand if Cray has contributed anything, but did you
> know that the NSA (the US National Security Agency) was responsible for
> the development of SELinux? Not only did they contribute it back, most
> distributions ship with it these days.- 

Thanks - thats education and good to know and 3 cheers for NASA - really
> 
> (But that's not the point. It *doesn't matter* what anyone's stake is.
> Anyone may use free software for whatever reason, as long as they are
> complying with the terms of the license. It doesn't matter if you like
> them or not, or what they believe in. That's what "free" means.)

I won't argue at the licensing terms - of course they may be complying 
with the licenses  and again everyone is free to choose whichever way 
they want to go. But is open source and the *community initiative * only 
  about about complying with licenses. There is that cliched statement 
of freedom - "ones freedom ends when it begins to affect anothers"  - so 
their ( the solid  state commercial interests) freedom does not just end 
with everything is *free forever and after* thats the ultimate fantasy 
of the capitalist crowd- they are not (rather should not be) free to 
choose to *not contribute* - irrespective of licenses. Because it would 
be nice to think we are not talking only licenses and legalities. Call 
is social responsibility, call it a *"request from the community"*

This, however,  is from the view point of a community versus corporate 
  - where the community is the large amorphous mass (whose collective 
resources base is large but individual resource base disparately 
distributed) and the corporate are the proprietory privateers (who have 
even larger private and unshared resources) whose sole motive is profit, 
wherever it may come from and whatever the cost. So is there a 
responsibility with that freedom , to access code, to make profits etc 
and my uneducated question  is are they giving back from where they have 
taken -

Maybe for this discussion I bring my own baggage of what a communtiy 
should be like and what the big corporate brother is up too.


ram
> 
> -- ams
> 
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> 


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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Abhijit Menon-Sen]

At 2005-09-23 16:35:27 +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> What does Cray / NaSA and the likes actually give to the community -
> will they give their source code - ever. I have my doubts - so then
> what is their stake ?

NASA has contributed a *lot* to Linux. Donald Becker's work at NASA is
how Linux first got into the supercomputing space (Beowulf), and he's
the reason the kernel has such excellent Ethernet device support. Ask
Google about "cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov" sometime.

I don't remember offhand if Cray has contributed anything, but did you
know that the NSA (the US National Security Agency) was responsible for
the development of SELinux? Not only did they contribute it back, most
distributions ship with it these days.

(But that's not the point. It *doesn't matter* what anyone's stake is.
Anyone may use free software for whatever reason, as long as they are
complying with the terms of the license. It doesn't matter if you like
them or not, or what they believe in. That's what "free" means.)

-- ams

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Saurabh Nanda]

> Watching for this thread to continue with interest. Is this not like
> all the people who are for democracy but are not willing to do
> anythingon their own to bring it about? Rise up and numbers will sway
> the tide of thought.

Out of curiosity - how many people from Delhi (or ILUG-D for that
matter) are planning to go to B'lore for foss.in (or would've gone if
it would have not been promoting proprietary software)?

Nandz.
--
http://nandz.blogspot.com
http://foodieforlife.blogspot.com

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Raj shekhar]

in infinite wisdom Sudev Barar spoke thus on 09/23/05 14:05:
> On 9/23/05, Pankaj kaushal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Lastly why post on Delhi LUG? Go ahead and post it on fss.in lists.

I think foss.in lists are moderated and Pankaj's email will get moderated.

-- 
Raj ShekharY!IM : lunatech3007
blog : http://rajshekhar.net/blog  home : http://rajshekhar.net
Disclaimer : http://rajshekhar.net/disclaimer

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Re: [ilugd] Where is the community?

[Sudev Barar]

On 9/23/05, Pankaj kaushal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Since early this month, a discussion has been floating around and has
> been quite visible. Some background can be found from the following links.

A little less of verbosity and simpler words will make your message
clear to all. Secondly (and this is to all @linux-delhi.org) please do
use your personal email address rather than that of LUG-D as the
opinion of LUG-D may / may not be in line with your thought.

Lastly why post on Delhi LUG? Go ahead and post it on fss.in lists.

Watching for this thread to continue with interest. Is this not like
all the people who are for democracy but are not willing to do
anythingon their own to bring it about? Rise up and numbers will sway
the tide of thought.
--
Sudev Barar
Learning Linux

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[ilugd] Where is the community?

[Pankaj kaushal]

Hello all,

Since early this month, a discussion has been floating around and has
been quite visible. Some background can be found from the following links.

http://kingsly.net/kingsly/Linux/bangalore/no-blug/
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg12585.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg12589.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-bangalore-2005/message/2274

Firstly, I resent the uncouth act of dealing away with linux-bangalore.
To the average intellects rampant here, the "gospel of ignorance" seems
to be the sage advice, but has anyone noticed that it is a rhetorical
advice and never works?

Secondly, a message to the organizers of foss.in. FOSS encourages
perspicuity and openness. Have the promoters of foss.in been completely
transparent in their dealings? Who are the decision-makers? Where is the
accessibility to the financial accounts?

Who and where is this community which is being talked about? Can I ask
for a little openness in the dealings of foss.in? In the light of the
above posts its trifling to talk about the promoters of foss.in and the
community being the same or even sharing the same ideas. Secrecy about
how much money is going to whom is not act likely of a community.

Can I ask for transparency in the selection process of the papers to be
presented? Can we have the mailing-list archives of the paper selection
group released to public when the schedule is announced?

Alas, it is never going to work, because, like corruption or thievery or
mistrust, it takes a single cell to thwart the whole system, where
society necessarily became law-laden, lock-decorated, and mistrustful,
and that is the nature of things as it stands.

It is infantile to call an event which does not adhere to FOSS as
"foss.in." It is about time that propagators of free and open source
software took a look at where they stand.

   I'll find a day to massacre them all,
 And raze their faction and their family...
   William Shakespeare, in Titus Andronicus

P.
-- 
Alas, even today there's little worth thinking and saying that does
not grievously wound the state, the gods, and common decency.
-Goethe

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