Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages as strike-trough
Hi, unfortunately I have some Outlook-users on my IMAP server. When a Thunderbird user deletes a message, it vanishes from the mailbox and moves into the Deleted Items box. From an Outlook client the same deletion does not delete the message but displays it in strike through letters - the message can still be opened. Does anybody know the reason? Can I change this behaviour either on the client or the server side? Thx in advance Thomas Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages as strike-trough
On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 15:27 +0100, Thomas Schlosser wrote: unfortunately I have some Outlook-users on my IMAP server. When a Thunderbird user deletes a message, it vanishes from the mailbox and moves into the Deleted Items box. From an Outlook client the same deletion does not delete the message but displays it in strike through letters - the message can still be opened. Does anybody know the reason? Can I change this behaviour either on the client or the server side? This would be because in Thunderbird you actually can configure things, while in Outlook the users are forcefed. When you delete messages in Outlook, it merely marks them as deleted (strikethrough), the user must separately choose Edit/Purge Deleted Messages to get rid of the messages (no it's not even shortcutted by default). Thunderbird seems to be configured by default to _move_ the message to the Deleted Items-folder and thus they vanish from whatever folder they were. A few users of ours moved over to Thunderbird because of this MS 'feature'. Poltsi -- Paul-Erik Törrönen, Cardinal Information Systems Ltd. Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 C 00150 Helsinki, Finland Mobile: +358 (0)40 703 1231 Phone: +358 (0)424 792 204 Fax: +358 (0)424 792 207 http://www.cardinal.fi/ Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages as strike-trough
Paul-Erik Törrönen wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-11 at 15:27 +0100, Thomas Schlosser wrote: unfortunately I have some Outlook-users on my IMAP server. When a Thunderbird user deletes a message, it vanishes from the mailbox and moves into the Deleted Items box. From an Outlook client the same deletion does not delete the message but displays it in strike through letters - the message can still be opened. Does anybody know the reason? Can I change this behaviour either on the client or the server side? This would be because in Thunderbird you actually can configure things, while in Outlook the users are forcefed. When you delete messages in Outlook, it merely marks them as deleted (strikethrough), the user must separately choose Edit/Purge Deleted Messages to get rid of the messages (no it's not even shortcutted by default). Thunderbird seems to be configured by default to _move_ the message to the Deleted Items-folder and thus they vanish from whatever folder they were. A few users of ours moved over to Thunderbird because of this MS 'feature'. The IMAP specification was written with a bias towards flat-file formats that put multiple messages in a single file. The ability to mark a message as deleted, then remove them all in one operation is considered an important way to reduce the load on a server. Even with file-per-message formats, like cyrus or maildir, a visible indicator that a message still needs to be purged is very useful, and arguably eliminates the need for a special trash container. Many webmail administrators were burned by this lack of feedback, as roaming users went over quota because they deleted without purging. It's not easy to explain to a user that delete doesn't actually delete the message, and this definitely presents a usability problem common to all IMAP implementations. I don't know how configurable Outlook is, but this might be a rare case where it chooses a sane default. In fact, whenever I configure Thunderbird for a user, I always set it to mark messages as deleted. It saves me a lot of headaches, and knowledgeable users are able to customize the settings to their liking. I'll even go further, and say that Thunderbird, IMHO, does everything wrong during intial account setup: - automatically shows only subscribed folders - automatically selects plaintext logins - defaults to a single SMTP server for multiple accounts - default uses HTML for composing messages - hides deleted mail In spite of these flaws, I prefer Thunderbird as an email client. At least it lets me alter this behaviour, even if it is after initial account creation. In any case, this is a client-side issue, and anything you attempt to do on the server is likely to cause more problems, especially for knowledgeable users. Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
Thunderbird seems to be configured by default to _move_ the message to the Deleted Items-folder and thus they vanish from whatever folder they were. No they don't 'move'. They're simply marked as deleted, just as Outlook does, but they remain in the original folder. Try it, delete one in tbird and then connect to the very same mailbox using something like pine. You'll see the message is still there, just marked for deletion. The problem with this is wasted space. The user thinks the message is gone but it's still there taking up disk space and potentially reducing their quota. Leaving them with strikeouts at least introduces the user to the concept of 'purging their own trash'. I've found running schedule deletion tasks to be a VERY BAD IDEA. Users have all sorts of stupid notions about what being 'in the trash' means. Like they want me to go climb into the dumpster to go get the message they put in the trash 3 months ago... By the time you set a 'wide enough' window of time for automatic deletion you run out of disk space. Bottom line, I've found it's better to use strike-through marking and have the client do the purging. Some clients offer a feature to do it on leaving the application or folder, prompted by a dialog box. Works well for most users, especially the ones that want to delete it, but not really. Ugh, users A few users of ours moved over to Thunderbird because of this MS 'feature'. I think outlook's utterly crappy handling of IMAP is a more powerful motivator. Outlook Express, on the other hand, does a fine job of supporting IMAP. But the regular Outlook 2003 and past versions have had absolutely crappy IMAP handling. Such that it makes it almost impossible to use OL2003 against an IMAP server. I long since gave up on it for IMAP access. -Bill Kearney Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
Bill Kearney wrote: I think outlook's utterly crappy handling of IMAP is a more powerful motivator. Outlook Express, on the other hand, does a fine job of supporting IMAP. But the regular Outlook 2003 and past versions have had absolutely crappy IMAP handling. Such that it makes it almost impossible to use OL2003 against an IMAP server. I long since gave up on it for IMAP access. I migrated users from Outlook MAPI, to Outlook IMAP against an exchange server in preparation for migrating to Cyrus. For all its flaws Outlook IMAP works better than Outlook MAPI. The only new problem was that Outlook IMAP would not properly use the Outlook special folders like calendar, tasks and contacts when accessed via IMAP. All Microsoft's Contacts, tasks, etc are is specially formated messages. It would be really nice if tbird was able to parse those messages, and use them as contacts, or calendar items. Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
cyrus-imapd 2.3.0
A new version of the Cyrus IMAP server (2.3.0) has appeared on the FTP site. Is this considered the latest stable version? It has no corresponding signature file. Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
