Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 09:53:01AM -0500, Peter P. Benac wrote: > I had asked several stupid questions on the list because I couldn't find > a stupid answer and I didn't get a single response. For what it's worth, I'm sorry ... but I get really tired of trying to tell people that they have an MTA configuration issue. They rarely listen to me. And I've generally found that someone who can't tell an MTA from an MSA from a delivery system isn't going to be able to figure it out. And statements about debugging often being an MTA problem (and how to determine that) ARE documented. They just get ignored far too often. And so we on the list get tired of answering the same questions repeatedly and just start to ignore them. > from guessing. Luckily I don't need to answer to a higher power so I had > plenty of time to get this working. Perhaps David did not have the luxury > of time. How much time would it have taken for someone to answer my stupid Freeware is not for those without the luxory of time. If he wanted a solution immediately with complete documentation, then he should buy one. -- Joe Rhett Chief Geek [EMAIL PROTECTED] Isite Services, Inc. --- Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Documentation, Community & Advocacy was: RE: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
I'm afraid I have to concur with this. The documentation for Cyrus is very bad. Much of what I have ever done with Cyrus has been constructed with guess work, trial and error, and browsing the mailing list archives or asking stupid questions on the list. What documentation is available for Cyrus is badly organised, too terse, or very out of date. The Cyrus IMAP system is very powerful and very helpful and I'm extremely glad that it exists and is Open Source software. In a way Cyrus seems to be like one of those "secret" tools that only the email Guru's know about and keep secret in fear that their secret will somehow slip out. I think we as a community of users need to pick up the ball here, the guys at ASG have given us something for nothing and we need to take a more proactive role in creating a good support community around it. The seeds of a great OpenSource project are there. They are just not well organised. There is no unifying force to gravitate towards. We have things like the Wiki, Simon Matter's RPMS, this mailing list etc. These are all fundamental building blocks upon which to build. Although the guys as ASG might not agree but I think it is about time that Cryus got it's own domain name. www.cyrusimap.org is free. I'm more than happy to donate some of my own time and money to register this domain name, and setup some software etc on my webserver for use by the Cyrus community if it is needed. Who else out there that feels the same way I do? Regards The problem with Freeware is that most times the documents that accompany the software severely lack any substance. This software does exactly what I expect a Mail Package to do in this day of Virtual Domains; however, the process to get there was less then desirable. -- Oliver Jones » Director » [EMAIL PROTECTED] » +64 (21) 41 2238 Deeper Design Limited » +64 (7) 377 3328 » www.deeperdesign.com
Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Brian wrote: > Incidentally, even a cursory search through the archives would show that > this has been debated to death and the developers have stated time and > again that the benefits to a SQL backend haven't been worthwhile enough > for them to want to implement it. Note that "backend Cyrus in MySQL" is not at all the same thing as "have a cyrusdb backend that supports mysql" The former just isn't really feasable. However the later is feasable, it just isn't efficient for mailboxes and seen state. It might be reasonable for deliver.db (with the exception that expiration is likely to be slow), and if the database was local it might be useful for tls sessions (same problem with expiration). As it turns out, with the CVS additions that allow quota to be backended by cyrusdb, there is actually a situation where backending the quota database in mysql is a win -- that is, being able to have a quota root that is split between murder backends (still only likely to be useful for shared folders). -Rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rob Siemborski * Andrew Systems Group * Cyert Hall 207 * 412-268-7456 Research Systems Programmer * /usr/contributed Gatekeeper
RE: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Peter P. Benac wrote: > I had asked several stupid questions on the list because I couldn't find > a stupid answer and I didn't get a single response. It took digging through > the archives and piecing together a solution. A solution that came mainly > from guessing. Luckily I don't need to answer to a higher power so I had > plenty of time to get this working. Perhaps David did not have the luxury > of time. How much time would it have taken for someone to answer my stupid > questions or his? Even if it was to tell us where to find the answer it > would have better then silence. Why do you feel that your posts have to be answered? If I remember correctly, your questions were sendmail related. Have you tried any of sendmail forums and their documentation? > I did mention the Documents could use a bit more polish, and Ken has asked > me to update the documents with the issues I had and how I overcame them. I > will do this, and I challenge each of you to do the same thing. > > If these solutions were put into print or FAQ format then perhaps David > wouldn't have to be so angry and the stupid questions that nobody wants to > answer will have a place to be sent. In my opinion David's post was inapropritate regardless of how much information is/was available to him. > I for one would love to be able to use a SQL like MySQL to backend this > software. I don't have a problem with Berkeley DB, but I know MySQL, > Oracle, and Postgres to whole lot better. If I knew which routines actually > did the database work I don't think I'd have much trouble converting them to > use an SQL. It would save me a ton of time if these routines were > documented. I am not sure if you are talking about authentication or adding a new cyrus-imap backend. In either case the information is available: for auth look in $cyrus-sasl-src/doc/options.html. Check $cyrus-imap/lib/cyrusdb_berekeley.c as an example of a cyrus-imap backend. There was a discussion on this list about this awhile back, check the archives. -- Igor
Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
Am Dienstag, 3. Februar 2004 15:53 schrieb Peter P. Benac: > I did mention the Documents could use a bit more polish, and Ken has asked > me to update the documents with the issues I had and how I overcame them. I > will do this, and I challenge each of you to do the same thing. And that is the way it should be! There are so many different approaches on setting up cyrus that you really cannot ask the cyrus developers to write documentation for each. Btw. Show me a list on which someone gets answers although he is totally inpolite like David! He got answers! Unbelievable! > If these solutions were put into print or FAQ format then perhaps David > wouldn't have to be so angry and the stupid questions that nobody wants to > answer will have a place to be sent. The problem with David is that he did not mention one single argument why he thinks cyrus is garbage! Only saying cyrus is garbage because I say so is not really an argumentation. I would not ask a MySQL developer to make his database administrateable via IMAP but that's exactly what he is asking for. Administration of cyrus only via SQL ? Sounds totally incorrect for me. Of course the "correct" way in his particular situation would be to add user inboxes to cyrus via IMAP and then let cyrus add the users to the SQL database automatically with some default password. Of cou > I for one would love to be able to use a SQL like MySQL to backend this > software. Backend the mailboxes.db in a SQL database ? There are threads on the list which explain why this is not a good idea, I think. > I don't have a problem with Berkeley DB, but I know MySQL, > Oracle, and Postgres to whole lot better. If I knew which routines > actually did the database work I don't think I'd have much trouble > converting them to use an SQL. It would save me a ton of time if these > routines were documented. I understand that developers who write really well documented sourcecode are not very pleased to write the same documentation again only putting it in files not ending in .h or .c replacing C-code with spoken-language! Did you take a look at the sourcecode ? Would you say that it is not well documented ? Nearly all problems can be solved by looking at the sources. I agree that for only doing a basic cyrus setup you do not want to have to read sourcecode but then I would suggest using pre-compiled packages appropriate for your system. Why do you want to compile it yourself if you do not want to change anything with it ? If you say that you would not have much trouble in converting the existing routines to use a SQL database then I must say that you should be able to figure out which routines that are. This mainly ends up in not wanting to change anything :-) ! -- Christian
Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
Incidentally, even a cursory search through the archives would show that this has been debated to death and the developers have stated time and again that the benefits to a SQL backend haven't been worthwhile enough for them to want to implement it. There has been many cases of a lack of documentation being frustrating to new users, but this shouldn't be one of them (IMHO). -- Brian Ken Murchison said: > Actually, I did answer David's questions both online and offline. His > biggest program was that he was/is trying to fit a square peg into a > round hole. I don't know where he got the impression that he could use > MySQL to back Cyrus, but that was his first mistake.
Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
Peter P. Benac wrote: The message did deserve a response; however, the tone of the message could have been more polite. Unlike David I let my jets cool before I fired off a message to the list, but I was indeed angry. The problem with Freeware is that most times the documents that accompany the software severely lack any substance. This software does exactly what I expect a Mail Package to do in this day of Virtual Domains; however, the process to get there was less then desirable. I had asked several stupid questions on the list because I couldn't find a stupid answer and I didn't get a single response. It took digging through the archives and piecing together a solution. A solution that came mainly from guessing. Luckily I don't need to answer to a higher power so I had plenty of time to get this working. Perhaps David did not have the luxury of time. How much time would it have taken for someone to answer my stupid questions or his? Even if it was to tell us where to find the answer it would have better then silence. Actually, I did answer David's questions both online and offline. His biggest program was that he was/is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I don't know where he got the impression that he could use MySQL to back Cyrus, but that was his first mistake. -- Kenneth Murchison Oceana Matrix Ltd. Software Engineer 21 Princeton Place 716-662-8973 x26 Orchard Park, NY 14127 --PGP Public Key--http://www.oceana.com/~ken/ksm.pgp
Re: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
Peter P. Benac wrote: The problem with Freeware is that most times the documents that accompany the software severely lack any substance. What needs to be stressed here is that its *free* software. You are more than welcome to donate either efforts (like Ken suggested) or funds to correct the situation you describe. If these solutions were put into print or FAQ format then perhaps David wouldn't have to be so angry and the stupid questions that nobody wants to answer will have a place to be sent. Perhaps but that is no excuse. I rely on opensource software a lot and have often found myself in a similar scenario like that of the original poster of this thread where documentation did not suffice and I didn't receive any replies to my requests for help on mailing lists. Just because we are able to download and use free software does not mean that we are absolutely entitled to free support. Developers and experienced system administrators who donate their time and post to these mailing lists probably have other priorities - it's a little presumptuous to think that they *have* to answer our calls for help within a certain time frame.
RE: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Peter P. Benac wrote: > I for one would love to be able to use a SQL like MySQL to backend this > software. I don't have a problem with Berkeley DB, but I know MySQL, > Oracle, and Postgres to whole lot better. If I knew which routines actually > did the database work I don't think I'd have much trouble converting them to > use an SQL. It would save me a ton of time if these routines were > documented. Given that most of the interesting database access done by cyrus is done by enumerating the great majority of the database, I don't believe this is really a way to speed anything up (perhaps duplicate delivery and tls sessions could benefit from it). You'd need to write a cyrusdb backend. It should be pretty straightforward (see lib/cyrusdb.h for the API you would need to implement). -Rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rob Siemborski * Andrew Systems Group * Cyert Hall 207 * 412-268-7456 Research Systems Programmer * /usr/contributed Gatekeeper
RE: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
The message did deserve a response; however, the tone of the message could have been more polite. Unlike David I let my jets cool before I fired off a message to the list, but I was indeed angry. The problem with Freeware is that most times the documents that accompany the software severely lack any substance. This software does exactly what I expect a Mail Package to do in this day of Virtual Domains; however, the process to get there was less then desirable. I had asked several stupid questions on the list because I couldn't find a stupid answer and I didn't get a single response. It took digging through the archives and piecing together a solution. A solution that came mainly from guessing. Luckily I don't need to answer to a higher power so I had plenty of time to get this working. Perhaps David did not have the luxury of time. How much time would it have taken for someone to answer my stupid questions or his? Even if it was to tell us where to find the answer it would have better then silence. I did mention the Documents could use a bit more polish, and Ken has asked me to update the documents with the issues I had and how I overcame them. I will do this, and I challenge each of you to do the same thing. If these solutions were put into print or FAQ format then perhaps David wouldn't have to be so angry and the stupid questions that nobody wants to answer will have a place to be sent. I for one would love to be able to use a SQL like MySQL to backend this software. I don't have a problem with Berkeley DB, but I know MySQL, Oracle, and Postgres to whole lot better. If I knew which routines actually did the database work I don't think I'd have much trouble converting them to use an SQL. It would save me a ton of time if these routines were documented. My $.02 for what it's worth!!! Regards, Pete Peter P. Benac, CCNA Emacolet Networking Services, Inc Providing Systems and Network Consulting, Training, Web Hosting Services Phone: 919-847-1740 or 866-701-2345 Web: http://www.emacolet.com Need quick reliable Systems or Network Management advice visit http://www.nmsusers.org To have principles... First have courage.. With principles comes integrity!!! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:01 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: > Re: CYRUS = ) > > > > The top-class idiotic mail from a "David Grant" deserved no > response or at > least not any polite one. > > Naturally I appreciate those bringing any relevant > information, but do > change the subject line, please. > > The incredible amount of work put into the free applications > so many people > benefit from deserves the deepest respect. Letters and > persons with the > tone of David Grant deserves the opposite. >
Kill this thread, it shouldn't have been one ( was: Re: CYRUS = ....)
The top-class idiotic mail from a "David Grant" deserved no response or at least not any polite one. Naturally I appreciate those bringing any relevant information, but do change the subject line, please. The incredible amount of work put into the free applications so many people benefit from deserves the deepest respect. Letters and persons with the tone of David Grant deserves the opposite.
