Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Yaron Shahrabani]

Yaron Shahrabani




On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Maren Hachmann 
wrote:

> It's django-based - would it work as an app in the existing django
> website? (we'd need to keep an eye on server resources atm, though).
>
> For website translations alone, I don't think it has a lot of
> advantages, we do the most important part of the translations in the
> cms, and I don't think that will change any time soon.
>
> Anyway, some background info:
>
> Martin had previously worked on a rosetta implementation for the
> website, but it has never been put to use, because the scope was bigger,
> and intended to include the website cms texts, which couldn't be done
> easily. It allowed to download po files, and maybe even mo files for
> testing.
>
​
Mozilla have a relatively new method called L20n (http://www.L20n.org) that
is more suitable to website translation than gettext, also has a better
individual string refrence allowing pluralizing and genderizing a single
string in a different manner than all the other strings on the website.
This will require separating the website translation from the other parts
but it gives better agility.​


>
> Something like this - having it as an integral part of the website - was
> one of Martin's long-term goals (don't know how he thinks about it
> currently), to increase user-involvement.
>
> Could be nice. I agree with Alex that quality is important. I think it
> could be improved by having teams where people know each other (which
> the website already supports) and can communicate.
>
​It doesn't affect quality, professional translators all over the world are
using certain tools for translation, meaning that they get the strings from
the client and then they open it in a dedicated translation tool and then
hand it over to the customer (which is pretty similar to what's being done
right now), what I'm suggesting is to cut the middle man and give the
translator a web access to what they are already doing but with less
logistics. ​


>
> As an example, I've been enjoying working together with Eduard on the
> German program translations (he setup a github repo for this). I think
> it also had a positive impact on the quality, because we reviewed each
> other's work and had a place to discuss the tricky things.
>
​Great to hear, can I add the Hebrew translation there and connect
Transifex to it?​


>
> Regards,
>  Maren
>
> Am 30.10.2016 um 00:51 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Le 29/10/2016 à 22:53, Yaron Shahrabani a écrit :
> >> ​So let's get things straight, you prefer new translators downloading
> >> Bzr client, downloading the po file, downloading and install a
> >> translation software, merge the pot file with the new changes
> >> ​(not necessarily) and then work on the changes and then provide a
> >> Bazaar patch instead of logging in to a web interface and start
> translating?
> >> What else do you expect from the translators? to be austronauts?
> >
> > Our translation process is described here:
> > http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Translation_information
> > It doesn’t require using the VCS: you can download the file and send it
> > to us (we prefer Launchpad bug reports).
>

​Not a process I would expect a professional translator to go through.​



> >
> > There’s also a plan of moving from Launchpad/Bazaar to a Git front-end.
> > Should be realized in the coming year.
>

​It supports both, so even if the transition will take very long we can
still use this tool.​


> >
> > Nonetheless I don’t agree with Alex; I’d support any work for trying to
> > make our translation process funnier and more accessible, even if I
> > don’t have any idea if it will really provide better results. Let’s try!
>

​I can show you the participation statistics to VLC, there is much less
clutter and the team doesn't have to deal with merges and conflicts all day
long, they just give the translators the option to work independantly and
without their intervention.


> >
> > If we use this platform then we could have a place to put screenshots of
> > new strings for example. It’s currently hard to find where the strings
> > are placed in the program…
> > We could create the screenshots ourselves and that would be an
> > opportunity to communicate among translators, as currently we don’t do
> > it much because everybody has its own task.
>
​Hold your horses :) not yet, but Michal is willing to consider it for a
bounty, we can seek for external funding and have this feature pretty soon
if needed.​


> >
> > Moreover I’m noticing that we don’t provide any explanation for testing
> > the translation (weird). I’m not sure many people here are actually
> > testing the translation with the program. Well, I did, because I made
> > many fixes to the previous translations and was eager to see my words.
> > But sometimes we just want the work to be quickly finished… It’s later,
> > once we’re using the new release, that we notice the wrong texts and
> > correct them. 

Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Maren Hachmann]

It's django-based - would it work as an app in the existing django
website? (we'd need to keep an eye on server resources atm, though).

For website translations alone, I don't think it has a lot of
advantages, we do the most important part of the translations in the
cms, and I don't think that will change any time soon.

Anyway, some background info:

Martin had previously worked on a rosetta implementation for the
website, but it has never been put to use, because the scope was bigger,
and intended to include the website cms texts, which couldn't be done
easily. It allowed to download po files, and maybe even mo files for
testing.

Something like this - having it as an integral part of the website - was
one of Martin's long-term goals (don't know how he thinks about it
currently), to increase user-involvement.

Could be nice. I agree with Alex that quality is important. I think it
could be improved by having teams where people know each other (which
the website already supports) and can communicate.

As an example, I've been enjoying working together with Eduard on the
German program translations (he setup a github repo for this). I think
it also had a positive impact on the quality, because we reviewed each
other's work and had a place to discuss the tricky things.

Regards,
 Maren

Am 30.10.2016 um 00:51 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:
> Hi,
> 
> Le 29/10/2016 à 22:53, Yaron Shahrabani a écrit :
>> ​So let's get things straight, you prefer new translators downloading
>> Bzr client, downloading the po file, downloading and install a
>> translation software, merge the pot file with the new changes
>> ​(not necessarily) and then work on the changes and then provide a
>> Bazaar patch instead of logging in to a web interface and start translating?
>> What else do you expect from the translators? to be austronauts?
> 
> Our translation process is described here:
> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Translation_information
> It doesn’t require using the VCS: you can download the file and send it
> to us (we prefer Launchpad bug reports).
> 
> There’s also a plan of moving from Launchpad/Bazaar to a Git front-end.
> Should be realized in the coming year.
> 
> Nonetheless I don’t agree with Alex; I’d support any work for trying to
> make our translation process funnier and more accessible, even if I
> don’t have any idea if it will really provide better results. Let’s try!
> 
> If we use this platform then we could have a place to put screenshots of
> new strings for example. It’s currently hard to find where the strings
> are placed in the program…
> We could create the screenshots ourselves and that would be an
> opportunity to communicate among translators, as currently we don’t do
> it much because everybody has its own task.
> 
> Moreover I’m noticing that we don’t provide any explanation for testing
> the translation (weird). I’m not sure many people here are actually
> testing the translation with the program. Well, I did, because I made
> many fixes to the previous translations and was eager to see my words.
> But sometimes we just want the work to be quickly finished… It’s later,
> once we’re using the new release, that we notice the wrong texts and
> correct them. Quality comes with time anyway.
> (I’m going to write how to test your PO file — :P.)
> 
> So I’m favorable to this opening; might give motivation to the team and
> attract new contributors.
> 
> Do you have opinions out there, @jazzynico, @Maren or any kind translators?
> --
> Sylvain
> 
> --
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-translator
> 


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Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Sylvain Chiron]

Hi,

Le 29/10/2016 à 22:53, Yaron Shahrabani a écrit :
> ​So let's get things straight, you prefer new translators downloading
> Bzr client, downloading the po file, downloading and install a
> translation software, merge the pot file with the new changes
> ​(not necessarily) and then work on the changes and then provide a
> Bazaar patch instead of logging in to a web interface and start translating?
> What else do you expect from the translators? to be austronauts?

Our translation process is described here:
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Translation_information
It doesn’t require using the VCS: you can download the file and send it
to us (we prefer Launchpad bug reports).

There’s also a plan of moving from Launchpad/Bazaar to a Git front-end.
Should be realized in the coming year.

Nonetheless I don’t agree with Alex; I’d support any work for trying to
make our translation process funnier and more accessible, even if I
don’t have any idea if it will really provide better results. Let’s try!

If we use this platform then we could have a place to put screenshots of
new strings for example. It’s currently hard to find where the strings
are placed in the program…
We could create the screenshots ourselves and that would be an
opportunity to communicate among translators, as currently we don’t do
it much because everybody has its own task.

Moreover I’m noticing that we don’t provide any explanation for testing
the translation (weird). I’m not sure many people here are actually
testing the translation with the program. Well, I did, because I made
many fixes to the previous translations and was eager to see my words.
But sometimes we just want the work to be quickly finished… It’s later,
once we’re using the new release, that we notice the wrong texts and
correct them. Quality comes with time anyway.
(I’m going to write how to test your PO file — :P.)

So I’m favorable to this opening; might give motivation to the team and
attract new contributors.

Do you have opinions out there, @jazzynico, @Maren or any kind translators?
--
Sylvain

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Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Yaron Shahrabani wrote:

> What else do you expect from the translators? to be austronauts?

I expect them to be sensible, responsible human beings.

See https://musescore.org/administer-guidelines/translation-instructions
for an example of how both translating online and testing the results
easily could be implemented.

> What are you against exactly?

Unprofessional approach to translation.

Alex

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Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Yaron Shahrabani]

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > Are you against this change?
>
> Pretty much yes.
>

​So let's get things straight, you prefer new translators downloading Bzr
client, downloading the po file, downloading and install a translation
software, merge the pot file with the new changes

​(not necessarily) and then work on the changes and then provide a Bazaar
patch instead of logging in to a web interface and start translating?
What else do you expect from the translators? to be austronauts?

I think it's time consuming and irrelevant, translator should be focused on
translating.​

>
> > BTW, one of the features I'm trying to promote in WebLate is "celebrity
> > strings", meaning that the users will be able to upload pictures of the
> UI
> > and mark the location of the string helping other translators with the
> > process, this feature has been moved to the next version on each and
> every
> > new roadmap so far but we all hope it'll happen someday
> > (https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues/250).
>
> All that instead of actually using the software?

​And what if I don't have my computer with my development tools on it and I
want to see how it looks?
What if I'm using a tablet and I can't install it on my device?

​I can see the romantic part of the current method but if we want to get
new translators on board and get more translators involved we should lower
the entry point and make translations more accessible, just like I did with
VLC few years ago, not only they were sending the translations over their
mailing list (some of the translators still do) the mailing list had a very
low threshold for file volume causing some of the transmissions to fail,
very inconvenient.

I'm pro testing the translation but not at every cost, WebLate is an open
source project and provides free hosting for open source projects, it's not
like using Transifex, Crowdin, etc., it's a completely different method and
a very convenient one with builtin glossary and comments that allows the
translators to share questions about context and way of understanding a
string.

If free hosting doesn't work for you there's also an installation and a
docker container so you can host it yourself wherever you like, again - all
open source.

What are you against exactly?

Kind regards,
Yaron Shahrabani


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Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Yaron Shahrabani wrote:

> Are you against this change?

Pretty much yes.

> BTW, one of the features I'm trying to promote in WebLate is "celebrity
> strings", meaning that the users will be able to upload pictures of the UI
> and mark the location of the string helping other translators with the
> process, this feature has been moved to the next version on each and every
> new roadmap so far but we all hope it'll happen someday
> (https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues/250).

All that instead of actually using the software?

Alex

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Re: [Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Yaron Shahrabani wrote:

> I went through the documentation and saw that we're in 2016 and the
> translators still need to download the files and translate them manually.

They are also expected to test their respective translations and
evaluate the changes live.

Alex

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[Inkscape-translator] Localization Tool

[Yaron Shahrabani]

Hi guys,
My name is Yaron and I haven't contributed to his magnificent tool in very
long years.

I went through the documentation and saw that we're in 2016 and the
translators still need to download the files and translate them manually.

I want to suggest an open source translation hosting and application called
WebLate by Michal Cihar (The creator of Wammu/Gammu for those who remember).

This system is tightly integrated with the VCS, and the most important
part: it supports Bazaar.

This is the web address: http://www.weblate.org

Michal is very kind and I really like working with WebLate.

I can do all the coordination needed and we don't need to use it
exclusively so it won't interfere with the current method.

Thank you all,
Yaron Shahrabani


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