Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
Hi! put types only on the right, or only on the left or mix it. I followed the return type RFC and thus know that many people think it has to be on the left hand side. Fair enough, I do not have anything against such a decision. I also have nothing against putting the type on the right hand side. What merely bothers me is that it would be another inconsistency in the language design. It's not very intuitive for a user if a type hint is once on the right hand side and once on the left hand side. I agree, this is not a very good situation. It would be much better to take a systematic approach to this, but this is impossible since there is no systematic approach to strict typing in PHP, just some pieces here and there. I think this is not right, but obviously many people here disagree and are happy to have the inconsistent syntax. I don't see why public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo but for some reason this possibility wasn't even considered as far as I can see. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
On 4 November 2014 08:51, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I don't see why public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo Because when you grep for function bar, in future you'd have to know the return type too. I like to think of it as: function bar(): Type $hiddenTmpVar -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
On 4 Nov 2014, at 08:51, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I agree, this is not a very good situation. It would be much better to take a systematic approach to this, but this is impossible since there is no systematic approach to strict typing in PHP, just some pieces here and there. I think this is not right, but obviously many people here disagree and are happy to have the inconsistent syntax. I don't see why public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo but for some reason this possibility wasn't even considered as far as I can see. I thought it was inconsistent, but after discussions on StackOverflow, I don't think it actually is. Return types describe the return type of a function, not the type of a function. So there's no reason they have to go before the function name like parameter types do. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that `public Foo function` was rejected previously. -- Andrea Faulds http://ajf.me/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
On 4 November 2014 10:32, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 4 Nov 2014, at 08:51, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I agree, this is not a very good situation. It would be much better to take a systematic approach to this, but this is impossible since there is no systematic approach to strict typing in PHP, just some pieces here and there. I think this is not right, but obviously many people here disagree and are happy to have the inconsistent syntax. I don't see why public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo but for some reason this possibility wasn't even considered as far as I can see. I thought it was inconsistent, but after discussions on StackOverflow, I don't think it actually is. Return types describe the return type of a function, not the type of a function. So there's no reason they have to go before the function name like parameter types do. So, in a sentence: In PHP, input types go on the left and output types go on the right. This sounds like a convention that could be established and followed, and no-one could reasonably call it inconsistent if it was adhered to.
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
On 4 November 2014 12:17, Robert Stoll p...@tutteli.ch wrote: -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: are.you.winn...@gmail.com [mailto:are.you.winn...@gmail.com] Im Auftrag von Chris Wright Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. November 2014 12:51 An: Andrea Faulds Cc: Stas Malyshev; Robert Stoll; PHP Internals Betreff: Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left On 4 November 2014 10:32, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote: On 4 Nov 2014, at 08:51, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote: I agree, this is not a very good situation. It would be much better to take a systematic approach to this, but this is impossible since there is no systematic approach to strict typing in PHP, just some pieces here and there. I think this is not right, but obviously many people here disagree and are happy to have the inconsistent syntax. I don't see why public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo but for some reason this possibility wasn't even considered as far as I can see. I thought it was inconsistent, but after discussions on StackOverflow, I don't think it actually is. Return types describe the return type of a function, not the type of a function. So there's no reason they have to go before the function name like parameter types do. So, in a sentence: In PHP, input types go on the left and output types go on the right. This sounds like a convention that could be established and followed, and no-one could reasonably call it inconsistent if it was adhered to. That is an interesting thought. Yet, where would you put the type of an out parameter then? I wouldn't, because this wouldn't ever make sense in PHP. I'm not a fan of out parameters in general in PHP, but enforcing the output type of a variable can't ever make sense in PHP from an implementation perspective without sacrificing some dynamic features that won't ever disappear - I'm sure it could be done, but not without a huge and unacceptable performance penalty. Nevertheless, you could phrase your convention differently so it makes more sense and well.. in the end we can do whatever we like in PHP and call it xy-convention and the user will have to pick it up and learn it (quite similar to array functions where usually the first argument is array and suddenly it is not the first parameter as with array_key_exists, array_map or array_search). Sure it is no big deal, the user should be able to pick up the convention quickly but we could facilitate it, make it easier for the user, more intuitive, in order that the user has a steeper learning curve. And the time to decide what direction PHP should take is now with PHP 7. Please remember that PHP 7 is not the last major version of PHP. The things we do now are set in stone, but they do not mean that something else cannot be done in the future to build on top of them, as long as they do not conflict. I guess it's worth noting that my *personal* opinion is that I'd also rather have the function return type declaration on the left (I'd also like to drop the requirement for the function keyword in method declarations), but since there are a number of reasons why this no longer makes sense, and will never make sense again, I didn't hesitate to vote in favour of the current proposal because more than anything else I think the feature is what is important, and I know how much work has been put in to ensuring that the proposal satisfies as many concerns as possible. There will never be a better proposal than this.
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
Hi! public Foo function bar() would be so much worse than public function bar() : Foo Because when you grep for function bar, in future you'd have to know the return type too. Sorry, I do not understand - why to grep for function bar you'd have to know the type? Just grep for function bar as you did before. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
Hi! I thought it was inconsistent, but after discussions on StackOverflow, I don't think it actually is. If you specify the type once as Foo something and once as something: Foo then I don't see how there's even a place for discussions that it's inconsistent. Return types describe the return type of a function, not the type of a function. Given that in PHP functions do not have types, not being objects of the language, this seems to be argument invented just to ignore the inconsistency. Moreover, in languages where functions do have types - e.g. ML for example - the return of the function is specified in exactly the same manner as parameter type, and type of the function itself is never specified explicitly, but if needed, it is referred to with different syntax (-). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_ML Same situation with ActionScript: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActionScript both parameters and return type use : and nobody thinks that specifies type of the function - as, again, nobody ever specifies type of the function as such. In fact, I can remember no language that would specify type of the function (as opposed to parameters + returns) when declaring a function, even among languages with first class functions. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that `public Foo function` was rejected previously. Many things were rejected previously, but the RFC does not bring any argument about it and never even mentions it as far as I can see. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
Hi! In PHP, input types go on the left and output types go on the right. What is the output type? If I wanted to type a variable - is it input or output? -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: AW: [PHP-DEV] Types on the right or on the left
2014-11-04 9:51 GMT-08:00 Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com: Hi! I thought it was inconsistent, but after discussions on StackOverflow, I don't think it actually is. If you specify the type once as Foo something and once as something: Foo then I don't see how there's even a place for discussions that it's inconsistent. Return types describe the return type of a function, not the type of a function. Given that in PHP functions do not have types, not being objects of the language, this seems to be argument invented just to ignore the inconsistency. Moreover, in languages where functions do have types - e.g. ML for example - the return of the function is specified in exactly the same manner as parameter type, and type of the function itself is never specified explicitly, but if needed, it is referred to with different syntax (-). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_ML Same situation with ActionScript: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActionScript both parameters and return type use : and nobody thinks that specifies type of the function - as, again, nobody ever specifies type of the function as such. In fact, I can remember no language that would specify type of the function (as opposed to parameters + returns) when declaring a function, even among languages with first class functions. Haskell does: length :: [a] - Int length [] = 0 length (_:xs) = 1 + length xs Also, it's worth bearing in mind that `public Foo function` was rejected previously. Many things were rejected previously, but the RFC does not bring any argument about it and never even mentions it as far as I can see. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
