Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, but most of the lusers will be using the distributions' forks.

Since the site requires registration, I'll just say it here: many of
the names at  are 
GAIM vs. AIM all over again, or even more associable to Ion. If
you want the name to be associated with Ion, it should be 
"Ion soup (something)" (referring to the old saying about too
many chefs stirring the soup).

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion3 segfault

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Ben Hutchings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Debian takes the position that authors read and understand the licences
> they place software under and that Debian should therefore act within
> the terms of those licences.  It is not our practice to guess that the
> author might have meant something else.

The (L)GPL 2.* are not quite up to date with the power that 
distributions have emerged with. I see that GPLv3 actually 
includes provisions for additional terms governing the use 
of the name of the project, etc.

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Ben Hutchings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So next time there's a bug in a release like the one with size requests,
> we'll just have to wait for your next release rather than retrieving the
> fix from your repository?  Or make a local fix?

If the FOSS herd and distributions change their manners and
policies, and start respecting authors a bit, and communicating
with them instead of just doing what they please, the repository
might come back. But if all they want is for the author to be
a workhorse for their own forks or ancient versions (renamed or 
not) -- which is what most people will install due to the power 
distributions have with their easily installable packages -- 
well, they'd better really be prepared to really work on those 
forks.


> This deliberate inaccessibility seems like a good way to deter (l)users
> from following and getting involved in Ion development.  This doesn't
> seem to fit in with your apparent wish for "a progression of users  of
> different levels between them and the developers".

Ah, but most of the lusers will be using the distributions' forks.


-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion3 segfault

[Ben Hutchings]

On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 14:18 +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2007-05-07, Ben Hutchings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> This is ion3 20070318-2 debian package.
> >
> > You should use reportbug.
> 
> Debian will DI! MUAHAHAHAHAHHA.
> 
> I noticed from your posting that Xen has also added trademark terms
> to their license. I wonder how long Debian can keep up with the trend,
> until they will have to change their policies to respect the authors
> a bit.


Debian takes the position that authors read and understand the licences
they place software under and that Debian should therefore act within
the terms of those licences.  It is not our practice to guess that the
author might have meant something else.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
If God had intended Man to program,
we'd have been born with serial I/O ports.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Ben Hutchings]

On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 06:08 +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
> On 2007-05-06, csant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Also known as ion-3rc-20070506.
> > There seem to be no darcs changes to pull, and also the online changelog  
> > doesn't show the last changes.
> 
> I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers...

So next time there's a bug in a release like the one with size requests,
we'll just have to wait for your next release rather than retrieving the
fix from your repository?  Or make a local fix?

This deliberate inaccessibility seems like a good way to deter (l)users
from following and getting involved in Ion development.  This doesn't
seem to fit in with your apparent wish for "a progression of users  of
different levels between them and the developers".

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
If God had intended Man to program,
we'd have been born with serial I/O ports.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: ion3 segfault

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Ben Hutchings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> This is ion3 20070318-2 debian package.
>
> You should use reportbug.

Debian will DI! MUAHAHAHAHAHHA.

I noticed from your posting that Xen has also added trademark terms
to their license. I wonder how long Debian can keep up with the trend,
until they will have to change their policies to respect the authors
a bit.

Then again, FOSS will DIEEE! MUAHAHAHAHA. FOSS has become irrelevant,
offering just the same shit as Windows all over again, and no real
choice.

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion3 segfault

[Ben Hutchings]

[I thought I already sent this, but apparently it was left in my drafts
folder.]

On Wed, 2007-05-02 at 16:49 +0200, Konstantin Kletschke wrote:
> Well, I experienced an ion3 segfault is this the right place to post
> kind of those to, may be, improve code quality?


Given that:

> This is ion3 20070318-2 debian package.

You should use reportbug.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid all together.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Sylvain Abélard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Reading doc is so painful, when you feel anyone must give you the
> right answer and do the work for you.

Reading documentation is painful, and shouldn't be necessary (beyond
very general documentation) for basic configuration tasks (like 
clear crisp fonts [1], device permissions and aliases, etc.). Reading 
documentation should only be necessary for more advanced non-luser
configuration. In Linux these days, the non-documentation reading 
alternative is provided only through WIMPshit, if at all.

Ion also isn't perfect in that respect, and I think going for
full scripting support may have been a mistake in the end (but
then again, maybe Ion wouldn't have a lot of the small nice features
it has these days, without it), but I've tried to make the basic 
options rather tolerable (just copy over cfg_ion.lua). See also [2].

I want to be a mere (l)user wrt. software i don't particularly 
care about! But I don't want to use WIMPshit; in that case I could
just as well use Windows.

The DOS era was the pinnacle of computing.

  [1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/03/17/T20_15_31/

  [2]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/02/02/T18_49_51/

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Sylvain Abélard]

My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions
on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think
that users tend to become less of lusers, no?


I must diagree with this point. Luser questions on ion3's ML only
means there are less lusers that use ion3 and bother to post stupid
questions on the ML.

I think a pure luser attitude is to be discouraged at the first
difficulty, so they'd change to another WM before posting their lame
questions. Most of them would not even try such a strange WM (or a
using a non-"mainstream" OS) in the first place.

But you're probably right if you meant "there are less *ion* lusers
now than before".


I don't know about the user/lusers ratio, though I am pretty sure it
is getting lower and lower over time (foldoc:// september that never
ended).

I mostly develop in Ruby and Rails, and the apparent ease to develop
in such a language gathers many, many, many would-be developers (aged
14 to 18 most of the time) that does not have the slightest clue about
what "Object Oriented" means, why MVC stands for, or even why is their
commented code not working.

Reading doc is so painful, when you feel anyone must give you the
right answer and do the work for you.


So yes, in my mind, lusers' number is growing.

--
Sylvain Abelard,
Railer Rubyist. Epita MTI 2008.

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a
>> problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use.
> Errm, isn't that the same as having to edit sources to configure a program?

Having to fix autoconf scripts is the same as having to edit sources,
and worse. Having to edit a well-designed Makefile is the same as having
to edit a decent (non-XML) configuration file.

> It's about time we agree about what 'linux' stands for. If you prefer
> to regard any of those modern linux-desktop trends with the term
> 'linux', I'd disagree.

All the distros are the same shit. Some have more WIMPshit and some
less. All have the same shitty core software designed for WIMPshit
idiot users and the developers (incl. distributors) themselves.

> I may be missing something, but what makes you think so?
&
> Can you please be more specific on this point?

http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/04/01/T19_09_22/

> My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions
> on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think
> that users tend to become less of lusers, no?

It's just all moved and more appeared on IRC... and private mail. 
The mailing list demands subscription, you know. The lusers can't 
be arsed to do that. I can't either. Yet the mailing list would
be the most appropriate place for the questions... but the best 
weapon against spam is subscription presently.

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Alexander Shishkin]

On 5/7/07, Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh, cut off the drama, it was you who ripped off 'autoconf shit' from
> the rc, wasn't it?

Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a
problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use.

Errm, isn't that the same as having to edit sources to configure a program?


> Again, unless I'm very mistaken (which is fairly unlikely) it was you
> who went along the lines of 'me vs {debian,gentoo,whatever} lusers'
> some month ago in 'Debian sucks' thread, or was it your special way of
> expressing irony towards this kind of attitude in linux?

I never said there aren't lusers and idiot users. There are, a lot
of them. More day by day, as Linux keeps becoming even sorrier
imitation of Windows, and the more of the herd finds it. It's just

It's about time we agree about what 'linux' stands for. If you prefer
to regard any of those modern linux-desktop trends with the term
'linux', I'd disagree.


that there is -- or at least used to be -- a progression of users
of different levels between them and the developers. You could be
a luser wrt. one piece of software while being the developer of
another. The trend in FOSS is either-or: the annihilation of that
progression.

I may be missing something, but what makes you think so?


Ion does not even try to cater for the lusers, and
the distributions doing whatever they will with it, and still
calling it Ion, makes it even harder to help them to become not
lusers.

My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions
on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think
that users tend to become less of lusers, no?


Too much of essential FOSS core software, OTOH, these days
only tries to cater for the developers of that software, and the
lusers.

Can you please be more specific on this point?

--
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, csant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers...
> How sad...

The state of FOSS is sad. The license ideology of the distributions
(that works for the distributions and the FOSS herd against and using
the author), is sad. Better say goodbye to the sinking ship.

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[csant]

I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers...

How sad...

/c

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh, cut off the drama, it was you who ripped off 'autoconf shit' from
> the rc, wasn't it?

Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a
problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use.

> Again, unless I'm very mistaken (which is fairly unlikely) it was you
> who went along the lines of 'me vs {debian,gentoo,whatever} lusers'
> some month ago in 'Debian sucks' thread, or was it your special way of
> expressing irony towards this kind of attitude in linux?

I never said there aren't lusers and idiot users. There are, a lot
of them. More day by day, as Linux keeps becoming even sorrier 
imitation of Windows, and the more of the herd finds it. It's just
that there is -- or at least used to be -- a progression of users 
of different levels between them and the developers. You could be 
a luser wrt. one piece of software while being the developer of 
another. The trend in FOSS is either-or: the annihilation of that
progression. Ion does not even try to cater for the lusers, and
the distributions doing whatever they will with it, and still 
calling it Ion, makes it even harder to help them to become not
lusers. Too much of essential FOSS core software, OTOH, these days
only tries to cater for the developers of that software, and the 
lusers.

---

  [1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/07/04/T21_20_46/

-- 
Tuomo

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Alexander Shishkin]

On 5/7/07, Tuomo Valkonen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 2007-05-07 10:52 +0400, Alexander Shishkin wrote:
> Too much of a codebase to fork anyway. Better go with something lighter. :)

You mean something not worth the distributions carrying at all,
because you need to modify the source to configure it?

Oh, cut off the drama, it was you who ripped off 'autoconf shit' from
the rc, wasn't it?


Hmm.. that might be a way to stop them corrupting your work.
Too bad such is the extreme example of the "either you're one
of us (developers), or an idiot user" movement that the all
of Linux is turning into, and which is driving me away from it.

Again, unless I'm very mistaken (which is fairly unlikely) it was you
who went along the lines of 'me vs {debian,gentoo,whatever} lusers'
some month ago in 'Debian sucks' thread, or was it your special way of
expressing irony towards this kind of attitude in linux?

--
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.

Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz

[Tuomo Valkonen]

On 2007-05-07 10:52 +0400, Alexander Shishkin wrote:
> Too much of a codebase to fork anyway. Better go with something lighter. :)

You mean something not worth the distributions carrying at all,
because you need to modify the source to configure it?

Hmm.. that might be a way to stop them corrupting your work.
Too bad such is the extreme example of the "either you're one
of us (developers), or an idiot user" movement that the all
of Linux is turning into, and which is driving me away from it.

-- 
Tuomo