Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I always wished that I would have purchased the Sony back when they came out. I believe they were around $100 at the time, but the thought of owning anything involving IBOC was not to my liking. The only reason I have one now, is a friend sent it to me and she had no interest in it over in Korea. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:50:54 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: vroom...@ymail.com; irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question They're good, but not at that price, even modified as noted. I bought one early on, and returned it within a week on account of the heat - I couldn't have operated it on anything short of masonry safely. But I also found that here, within 7-10 miles of my IOBOC locals, I did indeed continue to hear the hash, and could not get receptions on those first adjacents any better with the XDR than I could with my analog tuners. At this location, a Tecsun PL-310 does as well as the XDR did. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Dennis Vroom vroom...@ymail.com wrote: Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Thanks Chuck. Wow! They sure get out. KAOS used to be rare in the 80s. I figured they had moved to a higher location. Must be a good shot from Olympia to here. Another change over the past that Vancouver/Victoria was Trops, but at least one isn't now. I pointed the yagi North and solid is CKKQ 100.3 Victoria. all evening. It looks like they will be a regular. They vary in strength, but very listenable to nearly local-like at times. Maybe some others, but nothing like that in signal. I should stack a couple FM6's. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: charle...@msn.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 03:00:46 + Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Pat: The KAOS antenna is on a tower (about 240 feet HAAT) in residential Olympia. You can see the tower in Google Earth using the FCC coordinates. Chuck From: mwd...@webtv.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:02:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Scott, CLIP Another weak Puget Sound station I used to get, was 89.3 KAOS Olympia. They are solid as a rock now, so their tower must be up on a mountain too. One thing about FM IBOC/HD, it is sure a different animal. hi. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Patrick, You do realize you're going to need to buy out a stationery store to get enough supplies for your FM QSLs if you get serious about FM. I do poorly with skip here and I still have about 300 Es receptions. If you get real patient, you can also use meteors. Mike Hawkins On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency), but an HD radio would detect the digital carriers and still give you WXXI-FM when tuned to 91.5. The digital carriers operate at much lower power levels than the analog. Initially, digital operated at just 1% of analog, or 20 dB below carrier (-20 dBc). More recently, the FCC has started allowing stations to use higher power levels of 4% (-14 dBc) or even 10% (-20 dBc) of analog. So using KUOW as an example, let's say it's still -20 dBc. That's 100kW in analog and 1 kW in digital. If you're in metro Seattle, that 1 kW digital is plenty to still ride right over anything else that might be coming on the adjacent channels of 94.7 and 95.1. If you're way down in Seaside, though, those 1 kW digital signals are DX: point a good antenna right at Seattle and you might get them strongly enough to decode, IF there's nothing else in the way on those frequencies. Point the antenna away from Seattle or disconnect it and you won't hear much of anything, as would be the case with ANY signal of 1000 watts from 100+ miles away. This leads to a bunch of interesting
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Mike, I have about 200-300 FM QSL's from the 70s and 80s. I have 66 TV QSL's too. The FM dial is so much different now with the number of LPFM's, translators, HD. etc. It is like a different World. Almost like I am a beginner. Except for the occasional tuning around on the van radio, I have really been out of touch on FM. So many of the weak translators I get are barely above the noise floor and some change places. That never used to be the case back in the old days. Except for skip, the same stations were always there. This weird switch-a-roo between an an analog FM coming in, over to another station in HD, is strange. Sometimes I will have the analog station, but the RDS from the HD station. I have already heard several scatters, a man in FF on 88.3 briefly the other day. 73, Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 23:59:02 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You do realize you're going to need to buy out a stationery store to get enough supplies for your FM QSLs if you get serious about FM. I do poorly with skip here and I still have about 300 Es receptions. If you get real patient, you can also use meteors. Mike Hawkins On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
By the way, with my antenna pointed ENE, I counted 93 stations (at least). Some frequencies had a jumble of 2 or 3 signals, LPFM's, translators, etc. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: mwd...@webtv.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 01:08:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Mike, I have about 200-300 FM QSL's from the 70s and 80s. I have 66 TV QSL's too. The FM dial is so much different now with the number of LPFM's, translators, HD. etc. It is like a different World. Almost like I am a beginner. Except for the occasional tuning around on the van radio, I have really been out of touch on FM. So many of the weak translators I get are barely above the noise floor and some change places. That never used to be the case back in the old days. Except for skip, the same stations were always there. This weird switch-a-roo between an an analog FM coming in, over to another station in HD, is strange. Sometimes I will have the analog station, but the RDS from the HD station. I have already heard several scatters, a man in FF on 88.3 briefly the other day. 73, Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 23:59:02 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You do realize you're going to need to buy out a stationery store to get enough supplies for your FM QSLs if you get serious about FM. I do poorly with skip here and I still have about 300 Es receptions. If you get real patient, you can also use meteors. Mike Hawkins On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I have to ask a stupid question.. you say you get the analog station, but the RDS from the HD station.. do you know for sure you've locked into the HD signal of a station? Because some analog stations have RDS and it has nothing to do with HD.. I worked for a station that had RDS and was not operating in HD. Keep in mind, I know very little about HD radio and how radios display things on the actual display on the front of the radio. Paul From: mwd...@webtv.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 01:08:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Mike, I have about 200-300 FM QSL's from the 70s and 80s. I have 66 TV QSL's too. The FM dial is so much different now with the number of LPFM's, translators, HD. etc. It is like a different World. Almost like I am a beginner. Except for the occasional tuning around on the van radio, I have really been out of touch on FM. So many of the weak translators I get are barely above the noise floor and some change places. That never used to be the case back in the old days. Except for skip, the same stations were always there. This weird switch-a-roo between an an analog FM coming in, over to another station in HD, is strange. Sometimes I will have the analog station, but the RDS from the HD station. I have already heard several scatters, a man in FF on 88.3 briefly the other day. 73, Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 23:59:02 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You do realize you're going to need to buy out a stationery store to get enough supplies for your FM QSLs if you get serious about FM. I do poorly with skip here and I still have about 300 Es receptions. If you get real patient, you can also use meteors. Mike Hawkins On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Pat, At least here in northern Seattle, KNHC is MUCH weaker than the other Seattle area stations. Even KBCS-91.3 in Bellevue is stronger now that they're transmitting from Cougar Mountain. -- Rick On Tue, 19 May 2015, Patrick Martin wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency), but an HD radio would detect the digital carriers and still give you WXXI-FM when tuned to 91.5. The digital carriers operate at much lower power levels than the analog. Initially, digital operated at just 1% of analog, or 20 dB below carrier (-20 dBc). More recently, the FCC has started allowing stations to use higher power levels of 4% (-14 dBc) or even 10% (-20 dBc) of analog. So using KUOW as an example, let's say it's still -20 dBc. That's 100kW in analog and 1 kW in digital. If you're in metro Seattle, that 1 kW digital is plenty to still ride right over anything else that might be coming on the adjacent channels of 94.7 and 95.1. If you're way down in Seaside, though, those 1 kW digital signals are DX: point a good antenna right at Seattle and you might get them strongly enough to decode, IF there's nothing else in the way on those frequencies. Point the antenna away from Seattle or disconnect it and you won't hear much of anything, as would be the case with ANY signal of 1000 watts from 100+ miles away. This leads to a bunch of interesting DX scenarios when you start to break it all down: For instance - let's say that you were a little closer to your semi-local on 94.9, enough so for it to be an un-nullable pest. But let's also say that your local 94.9 is analog-only. So you
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I was wondering if KNHC is on Cougar Mountain? Some sources say they were and other say otherwise. I think in the jumble KBCS is in there. KOAS 89.3 Olympia is sure strong. They must have improved their site from the old days.. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 08:32:06 -0700 From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Pat, At least here in northern Seattle, KNHC is MUCH weaker than the other Seattle area stations. Even KBCS-91.3 in Bellevue is stronger now that they're transmitting from Cougar Mountain. -- Rick On Tue, 19 May 2015, Patrick Martin wrote: Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% o f th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency), but an HD radio would detect the digital carriers and still give you WXXI-FM when tuned to 91.5. The digital carriers operate at much lower power levels than the analog. Initially, digital operated at just 1% of analog, or 20 dB below carrier (-20 dBc). More recently, the FCC has started allowing stations to use higher power levels of 4% (-14 dBc) or even 10% (-20 dBc) of analog. So using KUOW as an example, let's say it's still -20 dBc. That's 100kW in analog and 1 kW in digital. If you're in metro Seattle, that 1 kW digital is plenty to still ride right over anything else that might be coming on the adjacent channels of 94.7 and 95.1. If you're way down in Seaside, though, those 1 kW
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
That's fine - for me, an FM DX receiver had better be able to comfortably run about 16/7/160. I run some 24/7/160 ( 4 months pretty much straight ). So the heat was a problem, but also it didn't do anything the others didn't in the DX Dept - it was all just 'nice-to-haves'. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Russ, I have not worried about the heat the XFR puts out. The venting seems fine. It gets warm, but so do my satellite receivers. I do not run the XFR for hour after hour anyway. I guess I could install a small fan inside the unit if needed. The XFR mainly is going to be a DX machine. For listening to FM, I have my wifi radio, as the vast majority of stations now stream. But it sure sounds like the hash is a local thing. Everyone that has reported FM hash has been within 0-30 miles of the station in question. With that dinky FM6 yagi, I am amazed for well the Sony works with it. I wish I had my old SC650. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:50:54 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: vroom...@ymail.com; irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question They're good, but not at that price, even modified as noted. I bought one early on, and returned it within a week on account of the heat - I couldn't have operated it on anything short of masonry safely. But I also found that here, within 7-10 miles of my IOBOC locals, I did indeed continue to hear the hash, and could not get receptions on those first adjacents any better with the XDR than I could with my analog tuners. At this location, a Tecsun PL-310 does as well as the XDR did. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Dennis Vroom vroom...@ymail.com wrote: Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Russ, I have not worried about the heat the XFR puts out. The venting seems fine. It gets warm, but so do my satellite receivers. I do not run the XFR for hour after hour anyway. I guess I could install a small fan inside the unit if needed. The XFR mainly is going to be a DX machine. For listening to FM, I have my wifi radio, as the vast majority of stations now stream. But it sure sounds like the hash is a local thing. Everyone that has reported FM hash has been within 0-30 miles of the station in question. With that dinky FM6 yagi, I am amazed for well the Sony works with it. I wish I had my old SC650. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:50:54 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: vroom...@ymail.com; irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question They're good, but not at that price, even modified as noted. I bought one early on, and returned it within a week on account of the heat - I couldn't have operated it on anything short of masonry safely. But I also found that here, within 7-10 miles of my IOBOC locals, I did indeed continue to hear the hash, and could not get receptions on those first adjacents any better with the XDR than I could with my analog tuners. At this location, a Tecsun PL-310 does as well as the XDR did. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Dennis Vroom vroom...@ymail.com wrote: Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
They're good, but not at that price, even modified as noted. I bought one early on, and returned it within a week on account of the heat - I couldn't have operated it on anything short of masonry safely. But I also found that here, within 7-10 miles of my IOBOC locals, I did indeed continue to hear the hash, and could not get receptions on those first adjacents any better with the XDR than I could with my analog tuners. At this location, a Tecsun PL-310 does as well as the XDR did. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Dennis Vroom vroom...@ymail.com wrote: Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
On 5/20/2015 1:14 AM, Patrick Martin wrote: I guess nulling FM or AM hash is the same. I have tried to get any hash at this location. To date I have still never detected any. Now, it could be that the hash is so weak not the detect. Something else to consider about hash: you won't generally hear it from the audio output of an HD radio. Hash is digital data being received on an analog receiver, right? You hear it as static because the analog receiver doesn't know what else to do with it. But an HD radio's DSP *knows* what to do with it and knows not to pass it out as analog noise, so it will either mute on the adjacent channel or even use the DSP to do some really advanced filtering to pull out analog adjacent-channel audio from right under the digital data. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Scott, I never considered that the Sony uses DSP. That would make a huge difference. I guess in the city where the hash is stronger, the DSP cannot get rid of all of it, but out here, the hash is weak, so the DSP can just filter it out, if there is any. I was playing around with 88.3 a bit ago, as the strongest HD signal I get is 88.1 down by Newport. They are like 8500w, but is quite high. I never could detect the signal up here on the van radio, but the Sony locks it right in in HD. I never seem to get it in analog. Just the Ocean Park WA station, but once Newport locks, Ocean Park is totally gone. In checking 88.3, there is just a very weak Portland (presumed). Some FM Dxers feel I should run a small amp, to slightly up the noise, as the receiver tends to mute extremely weak signals. I have not noticed that, as I get a lot of very weak stuff on many channels. Often there are two or three mixing or trading places. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:33:55 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question On 5/20/2015 1:14 AM, Patrick Martin wrote: I guess nulling FM or AM hash is the same. I have tried to get any hash at this location. To date I have still never detected any. Now, it could be that the hash is so weak not the detect. Something else to consider about hash: you won't generally hear it from the audio output of an HD radio. Hash is digital data being received on an analog receiver, right? You hear it as static because the analog receiver doesn't know what else to do with it. But an HD radio's DSP *knows* what to do with it and knows not to pass it out as analog noise, so it will either mute on the adjacent channel or even use the DSP to do some really advanced filtering to pull out analog adjacent-channel audio from right under the digital data. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Pat: The KAOS antenna is on a tower (about 240 feet HAAT) in residential Olympia. You can see the tower in Google Earth using the FCC coordinates. Chuck From: mwd...@webtv.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:02:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Scott, CLIP Another weak Puget Sound station I used to get, was 89.3 KAOS Olympia. They are solid as a rock now, so their tower must be up on a mountain too. One thing about FM IBOC/HD, it is sure a different animal. hi. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Scott, Thanks for the detailed explanation. Now I understand a bit more of what is going on. During E Skip, it should be interesting. KHNC is directional nulling the South, so that is the reason. I am now getting KBCS 91.3. I read they are on Cougar Mountain. I have had bits of Dance pop weakly on 89.5, but very weak. A strong Tropo into the Puget Sound may bring it in. I uses to get it on occasion back in the 80s. I think they were 320w ERP, but long before they were on Cougar. Another weak Puget Sound station I used to get, was 89.3 KAOS Olympia. They are solid as a rock now, so their tower must be up on a mountain too. One thing about FM IBOC/HD, it is sure a different animal. hi. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:04:25 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question On 5/20/2015 12:49 PM, Paul B. Walker, Jr. wrote: I have to ask a stupid question.. you say you get the analog station, but the RDS from the HD station.. do you know for sure you've locked into the HD signal of a station? Because some analog stations have RDS and it has nothing to do with HD.. I worked for a station that had RDS and was not operating in HD. There are no stupid questions, so long as you're willing to pay attention for a complex answer. RDS is both a specific and a generic term. As DXers, we use it generically to describe any text info that appears on the display of a radio. Specifically, though, RDS (or RBDS in the rest of the world) is one distinct way of transmitting that text: as low-speed digital data over a 57 kHz subcarrier that's part of an FM station's analog transmission. HD Radio (and other digital transmission schemes such as DAB) have their own data systems that operate completely independently of the 57 kHz RDS signal. For HD Radio on FM, that's called PAD (program associated data). Where it gets confusing is that most (but not all) HD receivers can also decode RDS as well as PAD, and often display both sets of data in similar ways. Let's go back to Patrick's 88.1 situation and see what's happening: If you put a spectrum analyzer on the low end of the FM dial at Patrick's QTH, you'd see this, roughly: 87.8 --- KQOC lower HD sideband 88.0 --- KQOC's analog, overridden by stronger KWAO analog 88.2 --- KQOC upper HD sideband 88.4 --- So what does a radio do when confronted with this mix of RF? Typically, an HD receiver locks in on analog first, so KWAO's analog audio will be the first thing you hear. If KWAO had RDS, you'd probably see its RDS data decoding fairly quickly, too. While you're hearing analog KWAO (and maybe seeing the associated RDS), the radio tuned to 88.1 is also looking at those upper and lower sidebands (87.8-88.0 and 88.2-88.4 MHz, roughly) to see if there's something digital to decode. If it finds data there, the radio then starts decoding it, but that takes a few seconds, in part because HD includes a time delay. (On the Sony receivers, it will say Linking if it's found HD but hasn't started decoding it yet.) Once the radio locks into those digital sidebands, you'll hear the HD audio and the data that it displays will come from the HD PAD stream, not the analog signal's RDS subcarrier. In effect, while the radio may say it's tuned to 88.1, it's actually *ignoring* that analog stuff between 88.0-88.2 and tuning into the sidebands above and below. That's why KWAO appears to turn into KQOC. If KWAO ever turned on HD, its HD would be much stronger at Patrick's QTH than KQOC's, and KQOC would go away completely. This also explains what happens on 96.5 - the PAD data is designed to be more robust and to decode faster than the more processing-intensive digital audio. Most HD radios will always try to default to whatever they can get from the digital signal, even if it doesn't match the analog. So if it can pull just enough KJAQ signal to decode the PAD data, it will display that instead of KCYS' RDS...even if there's not enough KJAQ signal to decode digital audio and so the KCYS analog audio stays on. If I were designing an HD receiver specifically for DX'er use, I'd probably set it up with two sets of displays and maybe even two sets of audio outputs, one showing the RDS from the analog signal, one the PAD from digital. Because really, what's happening here is that you have two completely separate transmission systems going on at once on the same FM band. Oh, and KNHC? It is indeed on Cougar and has been since 2002. But it uses a directional antenna with a deep null to the south, which helps to explain why it's not getting down to Seaside. s ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I do not know if the heat the XFR puts out in damaging to the unit over time. I do keep mine off when not in use. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 20:39:45 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question That's fine - for me, an FM DX receiver had better be able to comfortably run about 16/7/160. I run some 24/7/160 ( 4 months pretty much straight ).. So the heat was a problem, but also it didn't do anything the others didn't in the DX Dept - it was all just 'nice-to-haves'. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Russ, I have not worried about the heat the XFR puts out. The venting seems fine. It gets warm, but so do my satellite receivers. I do not run the XFR for hour after hour anyway. I guess I could install a small fan inside the unit if needed. The XFR mainly is going to be a DX machine. For listening to FM, I have my wifi radio, as the vast majority of stations now stream. But it sure sounds like the hash is a local thing. Everyone that has reported FM hash has been within 0-30 miles of the station in question. With that dinky FM6 yagi, I am amazed for well the Sony works with it. I wish I had my old SC650. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 19:50:54 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: vroom...@ymail.com; irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question They're good, but not at that price, even modified as noted. I bought one early on, and returned it within a week on account of the heat - I couldn't have operated it on anything short of masonry safely. But I also found that here, within 7-10 miles of my IOBOC locals, I did indeed continue to hear the hash, and could not get receptions on those first adjacents any better with the XDR than I could with my analog tuners. At this location, a Tecsun PL-310 does as well as the XDR did. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Dennis Vroom vroom...@ymail.com wrote: Patrick, Here's a link to a guy in Eugene, OR who modifies XDR-F1HD tuners. He improves the audio, adds two fans to reduce the high heat in the XDR-F1HD tuner. He sells his modified Sony XDR-F1HD tuners on Ebay. His current tuner bid is $810.00. I want to buy a Sony XDR-F1HD someday. www.xdrguy.com/contact.html Dennis, Kalama, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Russ, That is bad. No wonder I have heard that the FM Dial in metro areas are a wasteland when it comes to DXing. I would guess it would be worse than AM, as there are a lot less IBOC on AM than FM. I sure hope we do not get any locals running IBOC here. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 06:37:57 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I have 18 locals or close semi-locals running IBOC. Their hash kills another 35 channels, so I lose 53 at the start. I am between 7 and 10 miles from most of the local transmitters, all line-of-sight. I'm sure there are worse cases, but this is bad enough. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Russ. So then it does look like I am too far to get the HD hash. That pleases me as reports from FM DXers in Urban areas stated that FM DX is nearly useless with the number of locals and add to that the HD hash. It seems a lot of urban stations run HD. Here I do not have any locally and none of the Portland stations even show the HD logo. They are too weak. Seattle does, and it varies from time to time how many I get to lock in HD. FM IBOC hash is a lot different than AM hash. Too bad AM is not the same. It would make DXing easier. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:13:38 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Typically, the IBOC hash on FM won't make it as far as you're talking about, Patrick. I find that I can drive west and I will lose the hash on the adjacents well before I start to have trouble with the ( analog, since I don't have HD capability ) readability on the primary. Others who have the Sonys report that the filtering remove a lot of it anyway - they can usually hear stations adjacent to those having IBOC unless they have the antenna aimed too close. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:50 AM, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I have 18 locals or close semi-locals running IBOC. Their hash kills another 35 channels, so I lose 53 at the start. I am between 7 and 10 miles from most of the local transmitters, all line-of-sight. I'm sure there are worse cases, but this is bad enough. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Russ. So then it does look like I am too far to get the HD hash. That pleases me as reports from FM DXers in Urban areas stated that FM DX is nearly useless with the number of locals and add to that the HD hash. It seems a lot of urban stations run HD. Here I do not have any locally and none of the Portland stations even show the HD logo. They are too weak. Seattle does, and it varies from time to time how many I get to lock in HD. FM IBOC hash is a lot different than AM hash. Too bad AM is not the same. It would make DXing easier. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:13:38 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Typically, the IBOC hash on FM won't make it as far as you're talking about, Patrick. I find that I can drive west and I will lose the hash on the adjacents well before I start to have trouble with the ( analog, since I don't have HD capability ) readability on the primary. Others who have the Sonys report that the filtering remove a lot of it anyway - they can usually hear stations adjacent to those having IBOC unless they have the antenna aimed too close. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:50 AM, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Thanks Scott. I kind of follow it. 88.1 is interesting here, as when I first tune to it on the Sony, I get analog KWAO Ocean Park WA, but within seconds, HD signal KQOC Gleneden Beach OR takes over the frequency and locks the HD, totally eliminating analog KWAO. Infact on any portable on non HD radio, all I get is KWAO. I was quite taken back when the Sony gave me KQOC! The same is true with 96.5. When I first tune it in, I am getting analog KCYS Seaside, with within seconds again (depending of the signal), KJAQ Seattle locks the frequency. At that point hearing KCYS takes work and I have to turn the yagi to knock KJAQ down to get local KCYS. It is odd sounding to me. Also sometimes when I land on 96.5, I immediately get the KJAQ ID, before I get the station! So the audio is KCYS (also Country) and I am getting the ID RDS from KJAQ. I guess that is what you have explained, but it is different to say the least! So the sub channels I am hearing, when they pop in at 1% of th e analog signal. I thought I might get some HD from Seattle as I know that years ago when the powers were a lot less (60s/70s), some ran a couple KW or so from Cougar Mt and I got them in full FM Stereo. One I wanted was KNHC 89.5, but so far no luck. even in analog. I used to get it years ago off and on, but I did have a better yagi. I may stack two FM6's. I'll say one thing, HD FM is a different thing. It will be interesting with E Skip. I guess I could get the RDS ID without getting the audio from the station too, depending on how stable the signal is. Being away from FM DX for 25 years, the dial is sure a lot different than it was. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:19:15 -0400 From: sc...@fybush.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency), but an HD radio would detect the digital carriers and still give you WXXI-FM when tuned to 91.5. The digital carriers operate at much lower power levels than the analog. Initially, digital operated at just 1% of analog, or 20 dB below carrier (-20 dBc). More recently, the FCC has started allowing stations to use higher power levels of 4% (-14 dBc) or even 10% (-20 dBc) of analog. So using KUOW as an example, let's say it's still -20 dBc. That's 100kW in analog and 1 kW in digital. If you're in metro Seattle, that 1 kW digital is plenty to still ride right over anything else that might be coming on the adjacent channels of 94.7 and 95.1. If you're way down in Seaside, though, those 1 kW digital signals are DX: point a good antenna right at Seattle and you might get them strongly enough to decode, IF there's nothing else in the way on those frequencies. Point the antenna away from Seattle or disconnect it and you won't hear much of anything, as would be the case with ANY signal of 1000 watts from 100+ miles away. This leads to a bunch of interesting DX scenarios when you start to break it all down: For instance - let's say that you were a little closer to your semi-local on 94.9, enough so for it to be an un-nullable pest. But let's also say that your local 94.9 is analog-only. So you might have a spectrum that looks like this: 94.6 --- KUOW lower digital sideband, weak but with nothing else in the way
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Rick, I guess nulling FM or AM hash is the same. I have tried to get any hash at this location. To date I have still never detected any. Now, it could be that the hash is so weak not the detect. If the hash on FM is 1%, then 500- 1,000 watts of digital hash on FM at 130 miles, probably there would be little left. AM is sure a lot different in that. Even the very weak signals adjacent to HD stations I can hear. An example is 88.3 next to HD 88.1. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 05:44:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Pat, To me it sounds like you have the ideal FM situation. The benefits of HD without the massive interference. You'll get plenty of skip on those adjacents, too. In the city itself, the HD hash is so strong that it wipes out most adjacents, unless a way is found to null it somewhat. I calculated once that 42 channels (out of a total of 100 FM channels) are significantly blocked for me in Seattle by HD hash. At one time that would have meant just 21 local frequencies, but since all HD signals effectively take up three frequencies, that means there are 63 frequencies blocked locally instead of the 21 there would have been without the encroachment of HD. As for smaller cities, with the exception of public stations that can get grants to install HD, you're right, the economics don't favor it in many cases. The purchase of a new transmitter at over a hundred grand, plus licensing fees for the technology, make it hard to justify, although some owners will do it since it allows them to use a loophole that lets them apply for a translator to retransmit the HD signal in analog. I'll hold back regarding my opinions on _that_, since we've probably already discussed this too much on an AM-related list. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Martin Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:33 PM To: IRCA Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Rick, I am really amazed that I easily turn the Yagi to the NE, and I lose 94.9 96.5 Seaside and get Seattle. In fact both for a time yesterday I got the sub channels they offer. I may stack two of the FM6, if I can figure out how to stack three antennas on one pole. I also have a UHF Yagi. But I think the height would be an issue. The pole would have to be 18 feet rather than my 15 feet. I do not know if I could keep it up in our winds. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:15:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing, favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals. Most FM HD users won't have that benefit. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Pat, To me it sounds like you have the ideal FM situation. The benefits of HD without the massive interference. You'll get plenty of skip on those adjacents, too. In the city itself, the HD hash is so strong that it wipes out most adjacents, unless a way is found to null it somewhat. I calculated once that 42 channels (out of a total of 100 FM channels) are significantly blocked for me in Seattle by HD hash. At one time that would have meant just 21 local frequencies, but since all HD signals effectively take up three frequencies, that means there are 63 frequencies blocked locally instead of the 21 there would have been without the encroachment of HD. As for smaller cities, with the exception of public stations that can get grants to install HD, you're right, the economics don't favor it in many cases. The purchase of a new transmitter at over a hundred grand, plus licensing fees for the technology, make it hard to justify, although some owners will do it since it allows them to use a loophole that lets them apply for a translator to retransmit the HD signal in analog. I'll hold back regarding my opinions on _that_, since we've probably already discussed this too much on an AM-related list. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Martin Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:33 PM To: IRCA Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Rick, I am really amazed that I easily turn the Yagi to the NE, and I lose 94.9 96.5 Seaside and get Seattle. In fact both for a time yesterday I got the sub channels they offer. I may stack two of the FM6, if I can figure out how to stack three antennas on one pole. I also have a UHF Yagi. But I think the height would be an issue. The pole would have to be 18 feet rather than my 15 feet. I do not know if I could keep it up in our winds. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:15:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing, favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals. Most FM HD users won't have that benefit. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
For those who are interested in the technical reasons why Patrick doesn't get the same kind of adjacent-channel hash that those of us in urban areas do, read on. For those who don't...another thread will be along shortly with convention news ;) -- As far as propagation is concerned, there is nothing at all magical about the digital signals that flank the analog FM signal to create HD radio on FM. The ionosphere doesn't care whether it's analog or digital modulation. If a signal is (a) strong enough to be received and (b) doesn't have something stronger sitting over it, you'll get it. If either of those factors doesn't exist, you won't. So: it helps to think of the digital signal as something separate from the analog. If you're getting KUOW in HD, for instance, you're really getting: --94.6 --- KUOW lower digital carriers (on the same piece of spectrum used by an analog 94.7 signal) --94.8 --- KUOW analog signal (centered at 94.9) --95.0 --- KUOW upper digital carriers (on the same spectrum used by an analog 95.1 signal) --95.2 --- Depending on the station's technical setup, the digital signal may literally be completely separate from the analog. At WXXI-FM, for instance, our digital signal uses a separate transmitter, separate transmission line and separate antenna bays interleaved with our analog. It is possible (albeit not currently legal) for us to completely turn off our analog transmission chain and run only the digital carriers. If you were listening on an analog radio, you'd hear nothing on 91.5 (or maybe even be able to DX something else on that frequency), but an HD radio would detect the digital carriers and still give you WXXI-FM when tuned to 91.5. The digital carriers operate at much lower power levels than the analog. Initially, digital operated at just 1% of analog, or 20 dB below carrier (-20 dBc). More recently, the FCC has started allowing stations to use higher power levels of 4% (-14 dBc) or even 10% (-20 dBc) of analog. So using KUOW as an example, let's say it's still -20 dBc. That's 100kW in analog and 1 kW in digital. If you're in metro Seattle, that 1 kW digital is plenty to still ride right over anything else that might be coming on the adjacent channels of 94.7 and 95.1. If you're way down in Seaside, though, those 1 kW digital signals are DX: point a good antenna right at Seattle and you might get them strongly enough to decode, IF there's nothing else in the way on those frequencies. Point the antenna away from Seattle or disconnect it and you won't hear much of anything, as would be the case with ANY signal of 1000 watts from 100+ miles away. This leads to a bunch of interesting DX scenarios when you start to break it all down: For instance - let's say that you were a little closer to your semi-local on 94.9, enough so for it to be an un-nullable pest. But let's also say that your local 94.9 is analog-only. So you might have a spectrum that looks like this: 94.6 --- KUOW lower digital sideband, weak but with nothing else in the way 94.8 --- Your local analog 94.9, loud enough to overwhelm KUOW's analog 95.0 --- KUOW upper digital sideband, weak but with nothing else in the way 95.2 --- On an analog radio, all you'd hear is the local when you tune to 94.9. But when you tune an HD radio to 94.9, if it can hear those upper and lower sidebands, it will ignore the analog in-between...and so you might hear your local 94.9 in analog for a few seconds and then, when the HD decodes, you'll hear KUOW instead, because while your radio says 94.9, it's really looking for signals above and below 94.9 to decode. There are all sorts of permutations on this that can happen when the dial is more crowded. It's easy, for instance, to think of scenarios where the spectrum is clear for a distant analog signal but its HD sidebands are overwhelmed by locals. For instance, I can easily hear 105 kW WTSS 102.5 Buffalo in analog from about 70 miles away - but its 1050-watt digital carriers are completely obscured by locals WVOR 102.3 and WLGZ on 102.7. If either of those locals goes off, there's WTSS in digital, because that bit of spectrum is suddenly open. Does that help make some sense of all of this? s ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Patrick, You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing, favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals. Most FM HD users won't have that benefit. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial is sure a l ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy, as I get nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a flashing HD symbol. But Seattle from Cougar Tiger Mountains come in much stronger. I have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM IBOC hash cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very far. I cannot wait for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of local sounding station in HD. Thanks. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial is sure a l ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy, as I get nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a flashing HD symbol. But Seattle from Cougar Tiger Mountains come in much stronger. I have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM IBOC hash cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very far. I cannot wait for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of local sounding station in HD. Thanks. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
[IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial is sure a l ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy, as I get nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a flashing HD symbol. But Seattle from Cougar Tiger Mountains come in much stronger. I have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM IBOC hash cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very far. I cannot wait for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of local sounding station in HD. Thanks. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Apologies, last post on this. Thinking further, there's probably a middle level of local HD signal that's strong enough to decode but weak enough to allow adjacents to be heard as well. In my case, the only station that might be in this category only has one HD channel, and it decodes properly. I can get skip signals on the adjacents, and could probably barely decode an HD-2 if it existed. I'm done. Sorry about the multiple messages. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:15 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing, favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals. Most FM HD users won't have that benefit. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Rick, I am really amazed that I easily turn the Yagi to the NE, and I lose 94.9 96.5 Seaside and get Seattle. In fact both for a time yesterday I got the sub channels they offer. I may stack two of the FM6, if I can figure out how to stack three antennas on one pole. I also have a UHF Yagi. But I think the height would be an issue. The pole would have to be 18 feet rather than my 15 feet. I do not know if I could keep it up in our winds. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:15:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Patrick, You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing, favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals. Most FM HD users won't have that benefit. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lewis Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America' Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Rick, I do not get Seattle FM on Trops, at least what is transmitted from the mountain tops. Most of what in on Tiger and Cougar Mountains are there 24/7. They are not DX. Now the signal can vary and they do. Like tonight only one or two stations are locking in HD. Earlier this morning there were about a half a dozen. I have tried to hear any hash and I just do not get any. The strongest station I get is a Classical one on 88.1 about 100 miles away near Newport OR. With the yagi pointed right them, 88.3 is clear as a bell. A very weak signal is on it, but I note no hash. So I guess if the filters are that good and the distance is there, I guess that keeps the hash out. Now on E Skip when I get some, I might get adjacent channel noise then, if the signal is local-like. I used to get some E Skip's that strong. I would think the station was 10 miles away instead of a thousand. I am sure with the FM6 yagi that I will get E Skip. The antenna is directional enough, but not too directi onal, so any strong skip should pop in, no matter what direction I am pointing it. I generally leave it ENE. I get Portland porr, and Seattle better, but most skip comes East of me. On occasion So Cal AZ pops in though. At least it used to. But like with any DX, the DXer needs to be there at the right time. Thanks for the feedback. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager From: rick...@shellworld.net To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:04:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Hi Patrick, Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very narrow filters on your FM. At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes, adjacents won't be heard. Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern California does. The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still covered up. I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter out the HD noise on adjacents. I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable, but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a semistrong station can defeat them. I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually and whether this can be helpful. But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD adjacent is being nulled. On the Sony it's not. -- Rick -Original Message- From: IRCA [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hawkins Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Thanks Russ. So then it does look like I am too far to get the HD hash. That pleases me as reports from FM DXers in Urban areas stated that FM DX is nearly useless with the number of locals and add to that the HD hash. It seems a lot of urban stations run HD. Here I do not have any locally and none of the Portland stations even show the HD logo. They are too weak. Seattle does, and it varies from time to time how many I get to lock in HD. FM IBOC hash is a lot different than AM hash. Too bad AM is not the same. It would make DXing easier. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:13:38 -0400 From: wb2...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question Typically, the IBOC hash on FM won't make it as far as you're talking about, Patrick. I find that I can drive west and I will lose the hash on the adjacents well before I start to have trouble with the ( analog, since I don't have HD capability ) readability on the primary. Others who have the Sonys report that the filtering remove a lot of it anyway - they can usually hear stations adjacent to those having IBOC unless they have the antenna aimed too close. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:50 AM, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I just do not see, nothing but HD across the dial and no analog. There are just not enough radios. I do not know of any others around here. I would not have mine if a friend would not have given it to me. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 01:50:33 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial is sure a l ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy, as I get nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a flashing HD symbol. But Seattle from Cougar Tiger Mountains come in much stronger. I have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM IBOC hash cause as much noise
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial is sure a l ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy, as I get nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a flashing HD symbol. But Seattle from Cougar Tiger Mountains come in much stronger. I have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM IBOC hash cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very far. I cannot wait for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of local sounding station in HD. Thanks. Patrick Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect
Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Typically, the IBOC hash on FM won't make it as far as you're talking about, Patrick. I find that I can drive west and I will lose the hash on the adjacents well before I start to have trouble with the ( analog, since I don't have HD capability ) readability on the primary. Others who have the Sonys report that the filtering remove a lot of it anyway - they can usually hear stations adjacent to those having IBOC unless they have the antenna aimed too close. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NW Phila Grid FN20id wb2...@gmail.com AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip FM: Yamaha T-80 T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder; Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2); modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15'; Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:50 AM, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at all. Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power, you'll get the full force of the signal. They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with it. Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts. The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis left the building years ago. Mike On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 FM2, yet on 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC locally. At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money, so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS. Patrick Martin Seaside OR KGED QSL Manager Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as obnoxious as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3 in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong signal from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on FM as it is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison. I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me. I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip. The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all. Mike Hawkins On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin mwd...@webtv.net wrote: This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times. I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR radio. Between the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in the dust (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have no AM or FM HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75 miles), or Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD. A few stay locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any hash on adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and sensitive. I can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash. The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR, and so on. AM IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances. Off the Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night. But so far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One thing I will say, the FM dial
