Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Saku Ytti wrote: Yet optic vendors even give you USB eeprommer boxes, where you can on-the-fly code your optics to fit another vendors router/switches, where they are seen as official optics. Possible reasons the market exists 1. Legally required by some customer contracts. Some customer requires 2nd source? 2. Fear for anti-competitive behaviour? 3. They know some are ghetto enough to go with the copy-eeprom way of thinking and want piece of the action and are selling crypto-keys to make 'official' optics? 4. Vendors don't often spin their own optics. Vendor C and J often use optics from Agilent, Finisar, etc, which are just re-branded (official label, different vendor ID programmed into the unit, etc.). jms ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:27:40PM -0600, Robert Juric wrote: Juniper also has only tested and verified their equipment with their optics. If you want to know without doubt that it will work, go straight to the source. Without doubt will give you surprises. See PR/486951 for extended fun with certain revision of Juniper-premium-price-sold Picolight/JDSU XFPs with links not coming up anymore. Or the desaster with early revision of Methode Elec. SFP-T which had a bad physical design of the locking/ejection mechanics so you were almost unable to remove them from without damaging the DPC. Bottom line: we had far less trouble with 3rd party transceivers than with Juniper premium priced transceivers for a fraction of cost. Best regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
Thanks for the insights. Which 3rd party transceivers have you had the best luck with then? Robert On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:31 AM, Daniel Roesen d...@cluenet.de wrote: On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:27:40PM -0600, Robert Juric wrote: Juniper also has only tested and verified their equipment with their optics. If you want to know without doubt that it will work, go straight to the source. Without doubt will give you surprises. See PR/486951 for extended fun with certain revision of Juniper-premium-price-sold Picolight/JDSU XFPs with links not coming up anymore. Or the desaster with early revision of Methode Elec. SFP-T which had a bad physical design of the locking/ejection mechanics so you were almost unable to remove them from without damaging the DPC. Bottom line: we had far less trouble with 3rd party transceivers than with Juniper premium priced transceivers for a fraction of cost. Best regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
Personally I've never had a single issue with Finisar, Fujitsu, or Opnext. SFP, SFP+, or XFP. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Robert Juric robert.ju...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the insights. Which 3rd party transceivers have you had the best luck with then? Robert On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:31 AM, Daniel Roesen d...@cluenet.de wrote: On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:27:40PM -0600, Robert Juric wrote: Juniper also has only tested and verified their equipment with their optics. If you want to know without doubt that it will work, go straight to the source. Without doubt will give you surprises. See PR/486951 for extended fun with certain revision of Juniper-premium-price-sold Picolight/JDSU XFPs with links not coming up anymore. Or the desaster with early revision of Methode Elec. SFP-T which had a bad physical design of the locking/ejection mechanics so you were almost unable to remove them from without damaging the DPC. Bottom line: we had far less trouble with 3rd party transceivers than with Juniper premium priced transceivers for a fraction of cost. Best regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Robert Juric wrote: They may have changed their policy, but I believe Juniper only supports Juniper optics in their equipment. Others will work, but if you want full support from Juniper I suggest you talk to your account team. They also don't support cables, but no one expects them to. Why does there seem to be an expectation that they should support any products that they don't sell? Keep in mind that unsupported just means they won't fix them if they break, not that the rest of your system is now somehow tainted. All too often unsupported means known to break things in weird ways, we have no idea why and we gave up. Consequently, if you have to ask management for a load of cash to buy new equipment to fix a problem (e.g. hundreds of SFP modules) unsupported means your job may be on the line. -- Regards, Andreas Lund (storage/backup/network/databases) Oyeren IKT -- http://www.oikt.no Servicedesk: +47 6383 5200 Direct: tlf.+47 6383 5287, mob.+47 900 77 162 ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
When you evaluate third-party optics, do a complete test of them. http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/specifications/transceiver-m-mx-t-series-1000base-optical-specifications.html http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/release-independent/junos/topics/reference/specifications/transceiver-m-mx-t-series-10-gigabit-optical-specifications.html Look at light levels, push traffic through them, etc. Several manufacturers, like Finisar, MRV, etc. send the units that test well to Juniper, Cisco, etc. The ones that don't pass well, go to third-parties. Alos, if they are surplus and used, they could be dirty. We've recently been burned by using third-party. The initial evals tested fine, but the last order had a 50% failure rate. Good luck. -b On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Tim Jackson jackson@gmail.com wrote: Personally I've never had a single issue with Finisar, Fujitsu, or Opnext. SFP, SFP+, or XFP. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Robert Juric robert.ju...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the insights. Which 3rd party transceivers have you had the best luck with then? Robert On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:31 AM, Daniel Roesen d...@cluenet.de wrote: On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:27:40PM -0600, Robert Juric wrote: Juniper also has only tested and verified their equipment with their optics. If you want to know without doubt that it will work, go straight to the source. Without doubt will give you surprises. See PR/486951 for extended fun with certain revision of Juniper-premium-price-sold Picolight/JDSU XFPs with links not coming up anymore. Or the desaster with early revision of Methode Elec. SFP-T which had a bad physical design of the locking/ejection mechanics so you were almost unable to remove them from without damaging the DPC. Bottom line: we had far less trouble with 3rd party transceivers than with Juniper premium priced transceivers for a fraction of cost. Best regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: d...@cluenet.de -- dr@IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp -- Bill Blackford Network Engineer Logged into reality and abusing my sudo privileges. ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On (2012-02-23 06:38 -0800), Bill Blackford wrote:
Several manufacturers, like Finisar, MRV, etc. send the units that
test well to Juniper, Cisco, etc. The ones that don't pass well, go to
third-parties. Alos, if they are surplus and used, they could be
dirty.
{{Citation needed}}
--
++ytti
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Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
heh,
ok, I shouldn't post something I'm clearly not prepared to provide
empirical data for. This is what I've heard and I've certainly
experienced results that support this notion.
:)
-b
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Saku Ytti s...@ytti.fi wrote:
On (2012-02-23 06:38 -0800), Bill Blackford wrote:
Several manufacturers, like Finisar, MRV, etc. send the units that
test well to Juniper, Cisco, etc. The ones that don't pass well, go to
third-parties. Alos, if they are surplus and used, they could be
dirty.
{{Citation needed}}
--
++ytti
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Bill Blackford
Network Engineer
Logged into reality and abusing my sudo privileges.
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Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
The best thing nowadays is to get an eeprom programmer and do all this
stuff yourself, this is what we do.
This way you are flexible with 3rd party optics. You just buy a bunch of
XFPs/SFP/SFP-P's with generic firmware and identifiers and programm the
rest yourself for whatever device you are running which has
vendor-locking.
No reason to have exactly the same xFP hardware several times in stock
just to have it work with different devices.
Dont get me wrong, if i want something to be 100% officially supported
(or the project requires it) we buy the optics from the vendor.
But i dont see any reason to pay $1500 each time for a 10G SFP+ LR optic
when i can buy this from one of the larger SFP vendors for less than
$80.
-Jonas
Am Donnerstag, den 23.02.2012, 08:27 -0800 schrieb Bill Blackford:
heh,
ok, I shouldn't post something I'm clearly not prepared to provide
empirical data for. This is what I've heard and I've certainly
experienced results that support this notion.
:)
-b
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Saku Ytti s...@ytti.fi wrote:
On (2012-02-23 06:38 -0800), Bill Blackford wrote:
Several manufacturers, like Finisar, MRV, etc. send the units that
test well to Juniper, Cisco, etc. The ones that don't pass well, go to
third-parties. Alos, if they are surplus and used, they could be
dirty.
{{Citation needed}}
--
++ytti
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Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On (2012-02-23 08:27 -0800), Bill Blackford wrote: ok, I shouldn't post something I'm clearly not prepared to provide empirical data for. This is what I've heard and I've certainly experienced results that support this notion. I've heard the same, from my router/switch sales people. I'm sure many of them honestly believe that and don't intent malice. Buying 3rd party can be done in many ways. One way is to use broken who uses many sources to find what you need. They can offer very good price and can rapidly deliver say any DWDM colour for any form-factor. But they have no idea what they are delivering, it's almost drop-shipping, will the DDM work? How well the I2C channel works all together? Newer routers poll I2C aggressively and some SFPs answer too slowly. Another way is to use shop which does nothing but optics and as such are subject matter experts. Uses single source for single part-number. Who has access to various vendors routers and switches and knows before shipping that it'll work on your gear. These are marginally more expensive than the brokers when buying one unit at a time, and they might have 7-8 week lead time (factory lead time) for stuff no on shelf (like certain DWDM colour) Now I've always been curious, why does this market exist? It would be excessively trivial to crypto-sign the SFP, maybe some already are. Which means you'd need to copy the eeprom contents from official optic to make it work, and you couldn't deliver two eeproms of same value to same customer (as vendor could prohibit two optics with same code working in same router). Yet optic vendors even give you USB eeprommer boxes, where you can on-the-fly code your optics to fit another vendors router/switches, where they are seen as official optics. Possible reasons the market exists 1. Legally required by some customer contracts. Some customer requires 2nd source? 2. Fear for anti-competitive behaviour? 3. They know some are ghetto enough to go with the copy-eeprom way of thinking and want piece of the action and are selling crypto-keys to make 'official' optics? -- ++ytti ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Saku Ytti wrote: Buying 3rd party can be done in many ways. One way is to use broken who uses many sources to find what you need. They can offer very good price and can rapidly deliver say any DWDM colour for any form-factor. But they have no idea what they are delivering, it's almost drop-shipping, will the DDM work? How well the I2C channel works all together? Newer routers poll I2C aggressively and some SFPs answer too slowly. Another way is to use shop which does nothing but optics and as such are subject matter experts. Uses single source for single part-number. Who has access to various vendors routers and switches and knows before shipping that it'll work on your gear. These are marginally more expensive than the brokers when buying one unit at a time, and they might have 7-8 week lead time (factory lead time) for stuff no on shelf (like certain DWDM colour) I strongly disagree with your characterization. I work with a couple of different companies (yes, one of which is owned by my wife) to sell 3rd party optics among other things. I've been active in the service provider community for many years, I still design networks and configure routers on a regular basis. While there certainly are many others that know a lot more than me, I think I am pretty competent to understand and deal with optics related issues. Both companies I work with can deliver optics very quickly, often next day and NEVER as long as 7-8 weeks and have VERY competitive prices (and I don't mean competitive with the router manufacturer's prices, I mean with other 3rd party optics). Perhaps you've dealt with the wrong people. Just like any other industry, there are some that are good and some that are bad. Similarly, no one expects Juniper to support the Cisco switch connected to their router, why anyone would expect Juniper to support a Finisar optic plugged into their router, I don't understand. A good optic supplier will give you a lifetime, advanced replacement warranty and will be able to fully support the optics they sell. -- Brandon Ross Yahoo AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667ICQ: 2269442 Schedule a meeting: https://tungle.me/bross Skype: brandonross ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On (2012-02-23 14:52 -0500), Brandon Ross wrote: I strongly disagree with your characterization. I work with a Both companies I work with can deliver optics very quickly, often next day and NEVER as long as 7-8 weeks and have VERY competitive prices (and I don't mean competitive with the router manufacturer's prices, I mean with other 3rd party optics). This is not economical position to be in for DWDM. There are 80 channels and at least 6 form factors and you need 40km and 80km reaches, so just to have units for single leg + spare you need 2880 parts, at 1kUSD each. If you can't sell these within 6months time, you might not be able to sell them at profit, and you almost certainly cannot, as quite many of them are not too common. And now you are able to sell only 1 leg, customer might often need multiple legs to do ring or whatnot. You can get any waves for any form factor from brokers rapidly, but they use multiple sources to hunt for them. So when possible, I plan ahead and order from single source, but use brokers as last resort. -- ++ytti ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Saku Ytti wrote: Both companies I work with can deliver optics very quickly, often next day and NEVER as long as 7-8 weeks and have VERY competitive prices (and I don't mean competitive with the router manufacturer's prices, I mean with other 3rd party optics). This is not economical position to be in for DWDM. There are 80 channels and at least 6 form factors and you need 40km and 80km reaches, so just to have units for single leg + spare you need 2880 parts, at 1kUSD each. I have no idea how they do it, but I can tell you for certain that I've been able to source DWDM optics for my clients within a week every single time. And yes, I'm referring to specific colors. You can get any waves for any form factor from brokers rapidly, but they use multiple sources to hunt for them. So when possible, I plan ahead and order from single source, but use brokers as last resort. There's no doubt that if you are running a DWDM network you ABSOLUTELY should be sparing your own stuff. Often this means a few tunables so you don't have to stock every frequency you are using, but that's a completely different subject. -- Brandon Ross Yahoo AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667ICQ: 2269442 Schedule a meeting: https://tungle.me/bross Skype: brandonross ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On (2012-02-23 16:53 -0500), Brandon Ross wrote: I have no idea how they do it, but I can tell you for certain that I've been able to source DWDM optics for my clients within a week every single time. And yes, I'm referring to specific colors. Sure you can source them, by querying multiple sources. But no one carries stock of everything, you simply cannot offload them at profit then, unless your customers are ready to pay high premium. I prefer to have same optics, from single factory from same parts, when possible. What you have to pay for this, is planning ahead 7-8 weeks, so your orders gets through the actual factory. I mostly have this luxury of planning ahead, but not always, especially not for customer driven stuff, then I also resort to brokers. Of course if you need something like 10km 1310nm SFP, you can get that shipped by anyone for much less than 20USD NBD or so. Probably under 10USD in volume. I'm sure there are clued brokers out there, and I'm sure you're one of them, but it's really hit and miss. I prefer, when time permits, to use specialist house, which I know and trust. I know what I'm going to order, is same I'm already using and it'll just work. Having new part with 'same specs' i.e. same form-factor, same wavelenght, same signal levels, is not guaranteed to work at all. I have SFPs here that crash MX trio boxes when inserted : (because JunOS does not handle hanging I2C gracefully) -- ++ytti ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:06:03AM +0200, Saku Ytti wrote: On (2012-02-23 16:53 -0500), Brandon Ross wrote: I have no idea how they do it, but I can tell you for certain that I've been able to source DWDM optics for my clients within a week every single time. And yes, I'm referring to specific colors. Sure you can source them, by querying multiple sources. But no one carries stock of everything, you simply cannot offload them at profit then, unless your customers are ready to pay high premium. Good/cheap DWDM optics are, generally speaking, in universally short supply. Production has barely been staying ahead of demand for quite some time now, hence the 7-8 week lead times from manufacturers. Agreed, you might get lucky and find someone who happens to have the color and optic type you're looking for on occasion, but there is nobody who is in a position to maintain an inventory of everything and still sell them at close to wholesale prices. There just isn't any money in it, which is why everyone who cares self-spares (often with the help of tuneables as universal donors) . -- Richard A Steenbergen r...@e-gerbil.net http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC) ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
There's not an expectation to support products they don't sell. Juniper sells optics, and if you want support for them you should get them from Juniper. Juniper also has only tested and verified their equipment with their optics. If you want to know without doubt that it will work, go straight to the source. And sometimes unsupported means unsupported, such as active vs passive DAC cables. Juniper only supports passive cables, and if you try to run connect a device that requires an active cable, you are out of luck. Robert On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Brandon Ross br...@pobox.com wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Robert Juric wrote: They may have changed their policy, but I believe Juniper only supports Juniper optics in their equipment. Others will work, but if you want full support from Juniper I suggest you talk to your account team. They also don't support cables, but no one expects them to. Why does there seem to be an expectation that they should support any products that they don't sell? Keep in mind that unsupported just means they won't fix them if they break, not that the rest of your system is now somehow tainted. -- Brandon Ross Yahoo AIM: BrandonNRoss +1-404-635-6667ICQ: 2269442 Schedule a meeting: https://tungle.me/bross Skype: brandonross ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
[j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
Hey all, While I'm thinking about 10Gb in EX3300s. Does anyone have a reliable source for 10Gb SFP+s suitable for VC use in EXs? US or Europe doesn't really matter, but US would be easier. We should be in the market for 20 or so shortly, to connect 4 bunches of 3300s into VCs. Only 4 would be driving cable lengths anywhere near 200 meters, but all would be on SMF for consistancy, if that matters at all. Thanks -- Mike Williams ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
They may have changed their policy, but I believe Juniper only supports Juniper optics in their equipment. Others will work, but if you want full support from Juniper I suggest you talk to your account team. Robert On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Mike Williams mike.willi...@comodo.comwrote: Hey all, While I'm thinking about 10Gb in EX3300s. Does anyone have a reliable source for 10Gb SFP+s suitable for VC use in EXs? US or Europe doesn't really matter, but US would be easier. We should be in the market for 20 or so shortly, to connect 4 bunches of 3300s into VCs. Only 4 would be driving cable lengths anywhere near 200 meters, but all would be on SMF for consistancy, if that matters at all. Thanks -- Mike Williams ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
Re: [j-nsp] Sources for SFP+ optics
Another good option for VC is the DAC/Twinax cables (0,5-5M) which you can get from juniper for the price of a decent dinner for two. //T On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Robert Juric robert.ju...@gmail.com wrote: They may have changed their policy, but I believe Juniper only supports Juniper optics in their equipment. Others will work, but if you want full support from Juniper I suggest you talk to your account team. Robert On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Mike Williams mike.willi...@comodo.comwrote: Hey all, While I'm thinking about 10Gb in EX3300s. Does anyone have a reliable source for 10Gb SFP+s suitable for VC use in EXs? US or Europe doesn't really matter, but US would be easier. We should be in the market for 20 or so shortly, to connect 4 bunches of 3300s into VCs. Only 4 would be driving cable lengths anywhere near 200 meters, but all would be on SMF for consistancy, if that matters at all. Thanks -- Mike Williams ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp -- -- Timh Bergström Head of Operations Videoplaza/System Operations timh.bergst...@videoplaza.com +46 727 406 845 S:t Eriksgatan 46 Stockholm www.videoplaza.com ___ juniper-nsp mailing list juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp
