Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Tuesday, 2013-05-07, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 12:50 my mailbox was graced by a message from Kevin > Krammer who wrote: > > So > > > > Adobe -> vendor > > Adobe Creative Suite -> bundle of products by vendor > > Adobe Photoshop -> one product by vendor, also available as part of a > > bundle > > > > KDE -> vendor > > KDE Software Compiliation -> bundle of products by vendor > > KDE Digikam -> one product by vendor, also available as part of a bundle > > With the profound difference that when you install Photoshop, frinstance, > that is it; while if you want to install KMail, you are obliged to install > as well a shitload of useless bug-ridden crap like Akonadi. There is very little difference. Either program will need its components to be present and working. If those components are part of a single package/installer or sharable between applications coming from an advanced software deployment system only changes how often the user has to download and install those components. Sharing of common components is one of the strengths of bundles on systems without software dependency management facilities, because they'll only contain those components once. One of the most widely known bundles, Microsoft Office, even reflects that in its installer. Individual applications can be selected for installation, the common components are always selected. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Tuesday 07 May 2013 19:21 my mailbox was graced by a message from Duncan who wrote: > Other distros who stuck with pre-akonadi kmail-1/kdepim-4.4 for awhile > either have or will eventually need to make similar decisions... Another possibility: users will go over to Claws-mail (or other MUA), and drop KDE completely, some with a sigh of relief... Cheers, Ron. -- Toutes choses sont dites déjà, mais comme personne n'écoute, il faut toujours recommencer. -- A. Gide -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Tuesday 07 May 2013 23.04:02 Ross Boylan wrote: > I'm using Debian Wheezy, which was released about 2 days ago. It's a > little odd: help | about shows KMail Version 1.13.7 use KDE dev Platform > 4.8.4. The Debian package version number is 4.4.11, which I suppose is a > reference to the kde pim version. That would explain a lot of the problems right there. > I'm guessing the Debian packagers thought KMail 2 was too unreliable, KDE PIM packaging is notoriously bad, that is true. Often packagers think they know better than the developers. Or start to believe the fashionable KDE PIM bashing. The result is packaging that introduces issues that truly make it a horrible experience. But in those cases, the more truthful title for the thread would be that it is yet another failed Debian release. Even though that's also not quite correct, because it's not all of Debian that's bad. But as far as generalisations go, it'd be more truthful. The distribution with the best KDE packaging right now seems to be Fedora, at least that's my experience, and from 4.10 onward, KDE PIM has started fulfilling many of the promises this technology has been making. But criticising the 4.10 release on a weird mix of packages from 4.4 and 4.8 that was hand-grafted by some packagers who thought they knew better seems like going out of ones way to do some trolling against KDE, to be honest. Best regards, Georg -- Georg C. F. Greve Member of the General Assembly http://fsfe.org/about/greve/ http://blogs.fsfe.org/greve/ http://identi.ca/greve signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/05/2013 19:55, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 12:50 my mailbox was graced by a message > from Kevin Krammer who wrote: >> As I mentioned in a different message to this thread, this is >> usually easily understood when comparing with vendors with a >> range of products of their own. >> >> Good example, as mention earlier, being Adobe. Adobe being the >> name of the vendor, often also used as a prefix on product names, >> e.g. Adobe Photoshop. Adobe's product range has dozens of items, >> one for example being Photoshop. That product is also available >> as part of a product bundle called Creative Suite. >> >> So >> >> Adobe -> vendor Adobe Creative Suite -> bundle of products by >> vendor Adobe Photoshop -> one product by vendor, also available >> as part of a bundle >> >> KDE -> vendor KDE Software Compiliation -> bundle of products by >> vendor KDE Digikam -> one product by vendor, also available as >> part of a bundle > > With the profound difference that when you install Photoshop, > frinstance, that is it; while if you want to install KMail, you are > obliged to install as well a shitload of useless bug-ridden crap > like Akonadi. > > Talk about bloatware... > How to win friends and influence people? Ron, I'd refer you to http://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/ You have all the opportunity you want to discuss problems, and heaven knows you use it :-) but your lack of respect is simply not acceptable. And before you add a comment, if you can do better than the developers, you know what to do. Stop behaving like a spoilt child. Anne -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlGKGxIACgkQj93fyh4cnBcYOgCfY77jGb7UHOrFXX/vTq3Ee6ts HnsAnRfIrLLCydQGuZe+Wyzu4lZssB8x =oUyu -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Wednesday, 2013-05-08, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 19:21 my mailbox was graced by a message from Duncan > > who wrote: > > Other distros who stuck with pre-akonadi kmail-1/kdepim-4.4 for awhile > > either have or will eventually need to make similar decisions... > > Another possibility: users will go over to Claws-mail (or other MUA), and > drop KDE completely, some with a sigh of relief... I doubt Claws or any mail user agent can provide the same functionality of all KDE [1] software products people are currently using. Might be able to replace KMail, but I have my doubts on whether they would be able to work as a desktop shell, a document viewer, file manager, browser, calendar, text editor, etc. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming for a moment that you accidentally used the vendor name to refer to all software products of said vendor -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
В письме от 7 мая 2013 19:56:32 пользователь Renaud Olgiati написал: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 19:21 my mailbox was graced by a message from Duncan > > who wrote: > > Other distros who stuck with pre-akonadi kmail-1/kdepim-4.4 for awhile > > either have or will eventually need to make similar decisions... > > Another possibility: users will go over to Claws-mail (or other MUA), and > drop KDE completely, some with a sigh of relief... > > Cheers, > > Ron. Just stop crying, men! Somebody drop something for another thing... It is just his troubles. What are you waiting for? That KDE will make software you will like? Or people starts like what you like? I use ONLY kde after their 4.1 release and I love it so much! Yes, there are some troubles, Yes, there are some bugs. But it is DE which going forward! It's more important than stability. You can take group of software and make it as stable as you need, but it is more difficult to improve this software and make it more usable. Kde now is that DE which can provide everything you want in one great and powerfull envirement, which you can customize as you wish. No one DE can do this so. If somebody goes to claws - it is not mean that kmail is bad or akonadi is wrong way. I love it and my big thanks for that people, who develop it! Any time with any changes - there are many people, that can't understand and take in new things, it is people's nature. But changes are needed and I belive that kde's team goes in right way. Yes, they are make misstakes and sometime creates more problems. But which of NEW-makers doesn't? KDE4 is not just new version of old DE. It is new look for pc's daily using. And I'm glad for possibility to be the one of the pioneers of this really great DE and it's features! P.S.: Sorry for my english and your mind which has suffered by my message, but I'm really tired of such whiny posts... ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Wednesday 08 May 2013 05:36 my mailbox was graced by a message from Kevin
Krammer who wrote:
> I doubt Claws or any mail user agent can provide the same functionality of
> all KDE [1] software products people are currently using.
> Might be able to replace KMail, but I have my doubts on whether they would
> be able to work as a desktop shell, a document viewer, file manager,
> browser, calendar, text editor, etc.
> [1] assuming for a moment that you accidentally used the vendor name to
> refer to all software products of said vendor
Well, this is the problem: I am not looking for all the functionalities of
KDE, just looking for a mail client, to add to the small install on a palmtop
with limited HD capacity, and thought of KMail which I use daily on the
desktop.
So I try "urpmi kmail", and find it wants to install almost 300 Mb of software
(in 137 packages) just to add Kmail to a non-KDE install...{1]
Hence my reference to bloatware, which seems to have offended in which case I
would present my apologies, and say I did not wish to offend, just state a
fact.
Cheers,
Ron.
1 For comparison, an "urpmi claws-mail" takes up 15 Mb with 8 packages.
--
Nous avons tous assez de force
pour supporter les maux d'autrui.
-- Duc de Larochefoucault
-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
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Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Tue, 7 May 2013 19:56:32 -0400 Renaud (Ron) Olgiati articulated: > Another possibility: users will go over to Claws-mail (or other MUA), > and drop KDE completely, some with a sigh of relief... I dropped KMail years ago in favor of "claws-mail". CM is just a superior product and doesn't have all the baggage that KMail does. Plus, there is an MS Windows version. I can effectively have the same product on two different operation systems. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Wednesday, 2013-05-08, Renaud (Ron) Olgiati wrote: > On Wednesday 08 May 2013 05:36 my mailbox was graced by a message from > Kevin > > Krammer who wrote: > > I doubt Claws or any mail user agent can provide the same functionality > > of all KDE [1] software products people are currently using. > > Might be able to replace KMail, but I have my doubts on whether they > > would be able to work as a desktop shell, a document viewer, file > > manager, browser, calendar, text editor, etc. > > [1] assuming for a moment that you accidentally used the vendor name to > > refer to all software products of said vendor > > Well, this is the problem: I am not looking for all the functionalities of > KDE, just looking for a mail client, to add to the small install on a > palmtop with limited HD capacity, and thought of KMail which I use daily > on the desktop. I was just commenting on the overreach of the statement. As a vendor with dozens of products, KDE has a lot of offerings people use while they are not using others. As I wrote yesterday, statements similar to that often spring from a fundamental misunderstanding about multi product vendors in the FOSS world or can lead an unprepared audience into such misunderstandings. Hence the need to add more context. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
Ross Boylan posted on Tue, 07 May 2013 23:04:02 -0700 as excerpted: > On Tuesday, May 07, 2013 04:21:21 PM Duncan wrote: >> > P.S. Composed in kmail 1.13.7, which mysteriously hangs from time to >> > time, can't autocomplete from the address book, and sometimes show >> > blank messages with any way I can see to get it show html. >> >> Kmail-1 is an effectively abandoned product. While it continued to >> work with newer kde for awhile, and my distro, gentoo, continued to >> offer both the pre-akonadified kdepim-4.4.x and the newer version in >> parallel for awhile (so the admins of individual installations could >> choose which they wanted), without anyone officially adopting and >> continuing to maintain the pre-akonadi version, that's getting tough to >> maintain as mainline kde progresses farther away, leaving kdepim-4.4 >> (with kmail-1) further and further behind and stale. > I'm using Debian Wheezy, which was released about 2 days ago. It's a > little odd: help | about shows KMail Version 1.13.7 use KDE dev Platform > 4.8.4. The Debian package version number is 4.4.11, which I suppose is > a reference to the kde pim version. Released two days ago but already 11 months out of date (4.8.4 but current is 4.10.3). A lot has happened in that 11 months. > I'm guessing the Debian packagers thought KMail 2 was too unreliable, at > least when they made the packaging decision, which would have been quite > a biit before the release. > > Maybe some of the problems like the address book non-lookup are from > mixing KMail one with a later general KDE release. You nailed it. kdepim 4.4 was originally intended as a six-month "bridge" release, the address book being already akonadified, but kmail not yet. The kmail akonadification port took longer than expected, however, so that doubled to over a year for the 4.6 release, which was effectively a beta, and 18 months until the 4.7 release which synced back up with mainline kde release numbering. During that time there were further 4.4 releases to keep it working with current mainline kde, the final one being 4.4.11, to match mainline kde 4.6. With the 4.7 kdepim resync with mainline, further upstream kdepim development of the previous "bridge-release" kdepim 4.4 series halted. But, this bridge release always had what were intended as temporary hacks, designed to make the already ported to akonadi kaddressbook work with the not-yet-akonadi-ported kmail. The idea always was to finish the kmail akonadification, aka kmail2, thus making the temporary bridging hacks that were originally intended to be for only a single 6-month- feature-release obsolete. And with the release of kdepim 4.7, that happened, so from upstream's perspective, there was no longer any further need for the kdepim 4.4 series and the temporary bridging hacks it included. Of course as we now know, kdepim 4.7 and 4.8 continued to improve the kmail2/akonadi stabilization, but thru 4.7 anyway, upstream did continue to keep kdepim 4.4 support around. However with 4.8 the code was allowed to diverge, and with no further kdepim 4.4 releases to keep it in sync, further bugs began to appear. In theory, the 4.9 and now 4.10 series are reasonably kmail2 stable, now. However, a lot of folks including me migrated off kmail around 4.7, and will never know from personal experience, and others who remained on it continue to experience issues. In the gtk/gnome universe, this wouldn't have been so bad, as there's a number of competing mail clients available there. Unfortunately, kmail1 was good enough and dominate enough that there really aren't any good qt/ kde alternatives save for the still new and IMAP-only trojita. So it's not like kde-based (sub)distros have a whole lot of choice. It's either the now rotting kdepim-4.4 with kmail1, or newer kdepim, with kmail2. And with kde 4.8, kdepim-4.4.11+ (the plus indicating further distro patches to try to keep it working after upstream abandoned it with 4.4.11) was still /reasonably/ workable, not /that/ much more broken than the supported 4.7/4.4, and comparable in quality to the still maturing kdepim 4.8. So the debian kdepim/kmail packagers had a hard choice to make. I can't say they made the wrong choice for 4.8, but of course 4.8 is as I said above, 11 months, basically a year, outdated now... and that's at debian RELEASE. Two years from now or whenever they do the next release... I shudder to think about the originally six-month kmail bridge-hack that was kdepim 4.4 continuing not just the two years to 4.8, but now three years at debian wheezy release, and probably five years or longer by release of wheezy+1! But, on the up side, there's an opening for another qt/kde mail client now, that someone will probably fill at some point. And in the mean time, the patched-up-from-the-beginning-temporary-fix kdepim 4.4 in wheezy can only continue to encourage further migration away from kmail, to some oth
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
Renaud (Ron) Olgiati posted on Tue, 07 May 2013 19:56:32 -0400 as excerpted: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 19:21 my mailbox was graced by a message from > Duncan who wrote: >> Other distros who stuck with pre-akonadi kmail-1/kdepim-4.4 for awhile >> either have or will eventually need to make similar decisions... > > Another possibility: users will go over to Claws-mail (or other MUA), > and drop KDE completely, some with a sigh of relief... There's some irony there. I too am a claws-mail user there, having migrated to it with kde 4.7 after asking myself one day after yet another kmail/akonadi crash with loss of message (that I could probably recover, but that was the point, why did I NEED to do this, REPEATEDLY?!). The irony is that back in late 2001/early 2002 when I migrated from MS and MSOE to Linux and kmail, it had come down to either kmail or the then sylpheed-claws for mail, and I chose kmail. Had I made the other choice at that point, I'd have not had the whole hassle of switching back to it when kmail akonadified/jumped-the-shark. The second irony is that back in the late kde3 era, along about 3.5.8 or so, I had only a couple gtk-based apps and was investigating trying to drop them and thus be able to drop gtk from my (gentoo, so I build all updates, making unnecessary "extra" packages a lot more expensive a choice than on a binary distro) system entirely. Over the live of kde4, I dropped first one kde app and then another for gtk-based alternatives, until today all my big apps are gtk-based, with pretty much the kde/ plasma desktop itself, kwin, kdegames, and dolphin and gwenview, being the only kde stuff I have left. If I add qt, that adds vlc and smplayer2. That's it. On the gtk side I've always run pan as my news client (that was one of the gtk apps I was trying to dump, which was difficult as I'm involved with pan upstream as well, probably the biggest reason I did NOT dump all gtk), gtk-based firefox has replaced kde-based konqueror, and claws-mail has replaced both kmail and akregator. That's all my "big" apps. It be a lot less trouble now to dump kde and even qt entirely, than to dump gtk. There's gtk alternatives for vlc and smplayer2 or I could just keep qt, I already have gimv/gimageviewer installed which could replace gwenview, and the only kde games I use much are palapeli (puzzles) and kpat. There's certainly patience alternatives and I could drop palapeli, which leaves only dolphin and the plasma desktop itself, plus kwin. Razor-qt could replace plasma or I could research a gtk replacement, and I've liked what I read about enlightenment recently as well, so I'd surely look at that. I already use the mc/midnight-commander semi-gui for most file management, so dolphin's usage is mainly as the most convenient gui-file-manager association, making its replacement trivial. That leaves only kwin, but with some research (including looking at enlightenment as I mentioned above), that could be replaced as well. So both in mail client and in gtk vs kde/qt, I've come full circle since kde4, and am now closer to killing kde/qt than gtk. But on the other side, using so little kde has made it dramatically easier for me to run first the kde-prerelease betas and rcs, and now the live-branch git-kde (gentoo calls this version 4.x.49., with x being 10 ATM, thus 4.10.49., full trunk being simply denoted as version ). I'm rebuilding the limited kde I still run from sources every few days, taking under an hour to do so (20 minutes for a hot-cache rebuild) thanks to ccache and parallel-builds done in tmpfs (6-core AMD bulldozer fx6100 CPU, 16 gig RAM). Thus I got the updates that went into 4.10.3 shortly after they hit git, instead of waiting for the 4.10.3 release. It'd be a lot harder to do that if I was running nearly all kde based X- apps, as I was back in the kde3 era, both because there'd be a lot more to build in that case, and because I'd be risking the stability of more of my "production-critical" apps in the process. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] Yet another failed KDE release?
On Wednesday, May 08, 2013 12:55:25 AM Georg C. F. Greve wrote: > On Tuesday 07 May 2013 23.04:02 Ross Boylan wrote: > > I'm using Debian Wheezy, which was released about 2 days ago. It's a > > little odd: help | about shows KMail Version 1.13.7 use KDE dev Platform > > 4.8.4. The Debian package version number is 4.4.11, which I suppose is a > > reference to the kde pim version. > > That would explain a lot of the problems right there. > .. > > But criticising the 4.10 release on a weird mix of packages from 4.4 and > 4.8 that was hand-grafted by some packagers who thought they knew better > seems like going out of ones way to do some trolling against KDE, to be > honest. If you review the thread history you'll see I didn't start it or pick the subject line; I don't believe the original poster was on Debian. We have wandered onto my problems with KDE and KMail because I mentioned my problems with them while questioning some of the original criticisms of KDE. As for Debian, I'm sure the packagers did the best they could with the choices they had. It's worth reiterating that, given the lag times involved in releases, they would have had to settle on things well before the release. By most accounts I've seen the newer kdepim packages had a rocky start. Ross ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
