Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
Doug posted on Thu, 19 Jul 2012 01:41:45 -0400 as excerpted: Oh, I can see the replies now: why not just use Linux? Well, when I can get AutoCAD (for a reasonable price or free) and WordPerfect, and a few other goodies on Linux, then I'll consider it. They don't run on WINE. In the meantime, I use both. FWIW, I understand and accept why you don't just use Linux -- all those servantware apps not available on Linux... and unlike freedomware, not portable by anyone but the original providers, because they ARE servantware, with the owners disrespecting what at least some on the freedomware side consider basic human rights in the software realm, the right to (legally) read, understand, modify, and distribute those modifications in ordered to help others, all the software they use. And consider this: most software, including most freedomware, includes a waiver of rights that the (legal) user would otherwise have, rights to damages for claims of fitness for a particular purpose, etc. The legal wording of such waivers states that the user agrees to waive claims for such damages against the developer. The reality is, in software, it's very expensive and rare to be able to rightly guarantee such claims -- that's the realm of real-time control software used in airplanes, ships, nuclear and other power plants, water and sewer plants for large cities, etc. Proving the correctness of code to that degree takes quite a bit of time and generally, at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it's not really realistic for software developers to assume such responsibility and the waivers do make sense. *BUT*, and a big but it is, there's a legal principle of meeting of the minds, of a fair agreement based on a reasonable understanding of the risks and responsibilities assumed, and my argument is that without access to the sources to examine (and/or to have experts they trust and designate, examine), users do not have the ability to rightly understand what they are committing to and thus cannot fairly agree to such waivers in the first place. Thus, the argument is that in ordered for these waivers of responsibility and rights to damages to be fair and legal, they should require that the code be available to examine, and that such availability NOT be conditioned on unreasonable NDAs or the like, that would prevent the same ordinary people the agreements are targeted at being able to take advantage of such ability to examine (or to designate an expert they trust to examine, if they don't read source code). Thus, freedomware would continue as it is, while servantware would have a choice, they could either effectively become freedomware, or they could stop demanding that users waive their rights in regard to fitness for a particular purpose or for claims of damage, etc. Of course, the price of insurance for such vendors would then skyrocket, since they're now taking on serious liability risks, which would mean they'd have to jack their prices accordingly. As I said, it IS possible to make such guarantees, but the software to which such guarantees apply typically costs thousands of dollars (up, tens of thousands of dollars isn't unreasonable, hundreds of thousands of dollars is possible) a seat. Which would of course price proprietary servantware right out of the normal personal use and small business software market. But it would be a natural effect of the choice of the developer to stay proprietary and assume the responsibility for risks they are currently unfairly placing on the user, unfairly, because the user has no way to properly inspect the software to see what risks they're actually agreeing to assume responsibility for. It's only the warped legal system exception to the fair meeting of the minds condition for a legal agreement, that has allowed the current situation in the first place. Meanwhile, while I accept your willingness to sell out your own rights, it's your computer and your rights you're selling out, after all, don't expect me to simply go along with any suggestion that I should sell out my own rights, similarly. That's something I don't and won't do, which is why I don't use MS Windows, AutoCAD, WordPerfect... or for that matter, the proprietary servantware flash plugin available on Linux, or proprietary graphics drivers, etc. Of course, it can be noted that if my employer for instance, assumed such risks and made such agreements for me, and I agreed not to violate them under the limited terms of my employment, then I could use proprietaryware in the course of that employment, etc, so there is an out for employees simply doing their job, within the confines of said job (tho whether it's reasonable for said employer to make such agreements is an entirely different subject, see for instance the Ernie Ball case where the guitar-string company learned that lesson the hard way after the BSA goons came calling, but given
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
On 07/17/12 01:50, Doug wrote: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. That cant be done under Windows. The only option you have is 'reformat'. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? If not correct, I hope that some kind soul reading this will correct me! Thanx! --doug ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
On 07/18/2012 07:13 PM, dE . wrote: On 07/17/12 01:50, Doug wrote: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. That cant be done under Windows. The only option you have is 'reformat'. Since my original message, and some of the correspondence on this list, I have also done some more research. So: Not only can be done, but to some extent, DONE. First, I dd'd the entire Windows partition, so it could be restored if needed. (It was extremely slow; I forgot I have a USB3 adapter on the computer!) Then I installed KDE for Windows. You don't get the desktop--at least not from KDE TechBase--but you get a bunch of KDE apps that WORK! I have Dolphin and Find Files/Directories (kfind) and card games, and Snapshot, and Kate, and I could have installed some other things that would have duplicated what's already on Windows, so I didn't. I believe (but I'm not certain) that it is possible to get the KDE desktop, but I didn't pursue that. That's the sort of thing that if it didn't work, I'd really have to restore the whole system, probably, and at any rate, the Win 7 desktop is not that much different from KDE's. Sure, you don't have individually resizable widgets, and the START menu is not as nice as KDE's Menu, but it's all usable, and not only that, it's completely safe. So for those who would like to try it, here's my 2ยข. Oh, I can see the replies now: why not just use Linux? Well, when I can get AutoCAD (for a reasonable price or free) and WordPerfect, and a few other goodies on Linux, then I'll consider it. They don't run on WINE. In the meantime, I use both. --doug ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
Doug writes: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. That's okay, but there's also a kde-windows mailing list which might be suited better for your question: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-windows I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? I did not use Windows XP much, but I doubt that very much. I'd assume that the install drive is stored somewhere, and unless you make /dev/sdb show up as your C: drive, this won't work. Would a whole drive even show up as such in Windows, or wouldn't it have top be a partition like /dev/sdb1? I'd simply do the dd command, or better something like dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/mnt/externaldrive/windows.dump so you can use the rest of the external drive for other things. And if you want to go back, restore that backup. Wonko ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7--more
Am 16.07.2012 20:55, schrieb Doug: I have just looked at the Windows.kde.org website, and looked thru a whole set of screen shots. It looks to me like you DO wind up with a KDE desktop and most of the KDE aps that I have in Linux. Of course, maybe not all of them work, I don't know. Specifically, it does look as if Dolphin is there, and card games, but I couldn't verify the Find Files/Find Folders app. Believe me ... it is no KDE Desktop you end up with, it is embedded into win by the use of a dll-file. On my laptop I have installed Amarok and Digikam and they lack some functionallity I know from my penguins. About the Find Files/Folders ... I guess because the win command isn't as powerful as the *nix command (but everything is based on it via dll) you might not find what you're looking for. Id suggest you try Duncan's suggestion (Cygwin) ... -- Talk to you later ... Hans (52 to go) 2012/07/17 12:50 EDDS 171250Z 27016G28KT SCT043 20/09 Q1025 NOSIG ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 17/07/12 13:32, Alex Schuster wrote: Doug writes: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. That's okay, but there's also a kde-windows mailing list which might be suited better for your question: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-windows I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? I did not use Windows XP much, but I doubt that very much. I'd assume that the install drive is stored somewhere, and unless you make /dev/sdb show up as your C: drive, this won't work. Would a whole drive even show up as such in Windows, or wouldn't it have top be a partition like /dev/sdb1? I'd simply do the dd command, or better something like dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/mnt/externaldrive/windows.dump so you can use the rest of the external drive for other things. And if you want to go back, restore that backup. You might also want to consider http://www.partimage.org/Main_Page - it won't produce a bootable external drive, as such, but a complete way back if all goes pear-shaped. Anne -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAFeroACgkQj93fyh4cnBcWNwCfdnBV3dwfqWAV8Xs2t9L14odZ p/MAnRjIiH53glyYFgZpqT9W9rZoxHh2 =Bc7v -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
Am 16.07.2012 15:20, schrieb Doug: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? If not correct, I hope that some kind soul reading this will correct me! Thanx! yoda Dark the meaning of your posting is. /yoda What exactly are you wanna do? Use KDE unter 7? -- Talk to you later ... Hans (53 to go) ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
On 07/16/2012 07:06 PM, Duncan wrote: Doug posted on Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:32:33 -0400 as excerpted: On 07/16/2012 04:27 PM, Hans Muecke wrote: Am 16.07.2012 15:20, schrieb Doug: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? If not correct, I hope that some kind soul reading this will correct me! Thanx! yoda Dark the meaning of your posting is./yoda What exactly are you wanna do? Use KDE unter 7? Yes. I understand that you can load KDE on Windows 7. I'm tired of looking for things under the Windows GUI that MS decided I'm too stupid to find. I haven't done MS for over a decade and I couldn't legally even if I wanted to, since I can't agree to the EULA so they give me no permission to run the software, so I don't know anything about KDE on MS from personal experience, but from what I've read... The full kde desktop environment is not available on MS, as it has its own desktop environment. What's available are certain individual apps, ported to run on MS platforms, but they continue to run under the normal MSWormOS GUI, not the kde desktop environment you'd find on *ix. Basically, as qt runs on MS, they're simply qt apps, with an extra library (dll on MS) or two providing the necessary base kde functionality. I don't know enough about it to know what particular apps are ported, but it doesn't appear that's what you're after anyway. You appear to be after the kde environment, on MS, and that's not available. OK, I guess I misunderstood what KDE on Windows was about. But-- If I could have Find Files/Folders and Konqueror (or Dolphin) file manager, I would be a lot happier than I am now, and if KPatience were to run, I'd be even happier yet! Recently I've run into several situations where Windows just drives me crazy. 1. It puts files in odd places, and their file finder can't always find them. 2. If the file finder can find them, it won't put you in the directory where they are so you can a) unzip them or b) attach one onto an email. It thinks you always want to open the file. Anybody know if that's on the list of stuff that runs? And where can I find such a list? --doug -- Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7--more
On 07/16/2012 07:06 PM, Duncan wrote: Doug posted on Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:32:33 -0400 as excerpted: On 07/16/2012 04:27 PM, Hans Muecke wrote: Am 16.07.2012 15:20, schrieb Doug: I hope this message falls within the scope of the guidelines you published. I want to convert to the KDE version for Windows. However, I want to be absolutely sure I can get back, if it doesn't work out. (There is a program that was very difficult to install, and I don't want to ever have to do it again! As well as other paid programs.) In order to do that, I would like to copy the entire Windows partition to an external drive. On the Windows system, the drive contains Win 7 plus pclos in dual-boot configuration. Can I do (from the Linux partition) dd if=sda1 of=sdb and, if that is correct, would the external drive be bootable? If not correct, I hope that some kind soul reading this will correct me! Thanx! yoda Dark the meaning of your posting is./yoda What exactly are you wanna do? Use KDE unter 7? Yes. I understand that you can load KDE on Windows 7. I'm tired of looking for things under the Windows GUI that MS decided I'm too stupid to find. I haven't done MS for over a decade and I couldn't legally even if I wanted to, since I can't agree to the EULA so they give me no permission to run the software, so I don't know anything about KDE on MS from personal experience, but from what I've read... The full kde desktop environment is not available on MS, as it has its own desktop environment. What's available are certain individual apps, ported to run on MS platforms, but they continue to run under the normal MSWormOS GUI, not the kde desktop environment you'd find on *ix. Basically, as qt runs on MS, they're simply qt apps, with an extra library (dll on MS) or two providing the necessary base kde functionality. I don't know enough about it to know what particular apps are ported, but it doesn't appear that's what you're after anyway. You appear to be after the kde environment, on MS, and that's not available. I have just looked at the Windows.kde.org website, and looked thru a whole set of screen shots. It looks to me like you DO wind up with a KDE desktop and most of the KDE aps that I have in Linux. Of course, maybe not all of them work, I don't know. Specifically, it does look as if Dolphin is there, and card games, but I couldn't verify the Find Files/Find Folders app. So back to the first question: can I back up the entire Windows partition using the method I suggested, or must I do something else? I do intend to try KDE on Windows, but I'd like to have a belt and suspenders, please! --doug -- Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley ___ This message is from the kde mailing list. Account management: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde. Archives: http://lists.kde.org/. More info: http://www.kde.org/faq.html.
Re: [kde] convert to kde on Windows 7
Doug posted on Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:07:11 -0400 as excerpted: On 07/16/2012 07:06 PM, Duncan wrote: I don't know enough about [kde on windows] to know what particular apps are ported, but it doesn't appear that's what you're after anyway. You appear to be after the kde environment, on MS, and that's not available. OK, I guess I misunderstood what KDE on Windows was about. But-- If I could have Find Files/Folders and Konqueror (or Dolphin) file manager, I would be a lot happier than I am now, and if KPatience were to run, I'd be even happier yet! FWIW, konqueror in file-manager-mode uses dolphin's kpart, just with a different wrapper around it, different menus, etc. So if it was one or the other that had been ported to MS as a file manager, it would be dolphin. If konqueror (well, its file management side) were ported, dolphin would have to be available first/as-well. As I said I don't know much about kde on MS Windows, but I /think/ dolphin /might/ be one of the ported apps. I believe kate is ported as I've seen it mentioned somewhere, but that's the only one I'm fairly sure of, with dolphin being a less sure but I /think/ I saw it mentioned too. Recently I've run into several situations where Windows just drives me crazy. 1. It puts files in odd places, and their file finder can't always find them. 2. If the file finder can find them, it won't put you in the directory where they are so you can a) unzip them or b) attach one onto an email. It thinks you always want to open the file. Anybody know if that's on the list of stuff that runs? And where can I find such a list? Do note that depending on what version of dolphin/kde you're running, a lot of the filefinder type functionality is based on nepomuk's semantic- desktop indexing. Again, I don't know if that module's ported, so you might find dolphin available but without the same file-finding functionality... Meanwhile, as a former MS power user (back in the 90s I even beta-tested IE4-5.5, and was in line at midnight for the MS Windows 98 release, but MS crossed the line with the anti-feature of activation in eXPrivacy, thus pushing me off the platform I'd used for a decade, so I have MS to thank for finally forcing me to Linux! =:^), I can say with quite some confidence that there's quite a lot of file-management alternatives, free- to-download (tho not necessarily free-as-in-freedom, but it's possible there's more of that these days as well, I've been off it for so long I can't say), shareware, and reasonably low cost pay-up-front, all three. It's also worth noting that there's a Unix-like environment available for MS Windows, with a lot of native Unix/Linux tools ported to it, as well. I've never used it since when I jumped, I left MS for good (at least until they begin respecting the four software freedoms... not likely!), but it may be worth investigating. I just have to remember the name... google to the rescue! Cygwin: http://cygwin.com That actually may be a dependency for kde on MS Windows, or may not, since qt (the toolkit on which kde is based) runs on MS natively just as it does on Linux, I don't know. Which brings us back to the topic of kde on MS. While your question fits the guidelines here AFAIK (so no worries there), there is actually a kde on MS Windows (web) forum that's likely to be far better at answering your questions, simply because it's dedicated to the topic. The following link is courtesy of Anne Wilson, another regular here who has posted it in reply to others a number of times. I just saved it to be able to post it too if I got to it before she did. =:^) http://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php? f=59sid=20cf28399eeaa382a3f074e0d0af9a5a Hmm... a bit of browsing of the kde site and I found this as well. I'd read-up before asking on the forum, as I'm sure a lot of questions you'd have are answered. http://windows.kde.org/ It appears there's more ported to MS Windows than I had believed, including plasma, and there's instructions in the FAQ for switching the desktop shell from MS Explorer to plasma if you want, but they do say it's fairly limited on MS, no multiple virtual desktops, etc. And it's noted IN BOLD that it's not considered stable yet, as well, but it can be uninstalled (see the techbase link, then the FAQ) if you decide it's not for you. Of course there's installation instructions as well... Meanwhile, to your original question about copying everything to an external drive... in general it should work. But there's a caveat. As I said, I'm no authority on current MS Windows, but I do know that if you change too much out from under it, it'll force you to reactivate. (That was one of the reasons I left, after all. I had spent quite some money on MS over the decade I was on them, never risking pirated software, etc, yet they decided to treat their users as if they were pirates, forcing them to activate, etc.) It may be fine,
