[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Christophe Giboudeaux]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #12 from Christophe Giboudeaux  ---
Reminder: if we add an option and menu entry each time a user thinks his
must-have functionality deserves one, KMail would have a few more buttons bars
and countless options in the menu.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Kamil Dudka]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #11 from Kamil Dudka  ---
It is not important where I work.  I am a user of kmail (call me enduser if you
like).  I do not package kmail for any distribution if that is your concern.  I
have been using kmail since 2005.  Now I have serious doubts about the future
of kmail.

The problem is that your decisions about removing "not useful" features are not
backed up by any facts (like user survey's results).  You keep removing
features that are considered useful by many kmail's users, which I think is not
beneficial for this community project.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Till Schäfer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|FIXED   |---

--- Comment #10 from Till Schäfer  ---
I am reopening this bug for the following reasons: 

1. Your answer is a clear validation of KDEs Community Code of Conduct [1]:
- The answer is not respectful. Quote: "stop to cry" is a clear assault on
somebody else who is committed to the project. The code of conduct sais: "We do
not tolerate personal attacks"!
- Your answer is not considerate. It is no problem to disagree and I would
accept a decision you make as a package maintainer. However, having multiple
voices, from major open source contributors, that have politely pointed out
issues with your position should not be put down without at least a few word
acknowledging the others issues and explaining why you still think you position
is right. 
- I also think, even as a maintainer one should not act as a dictator. The code
of conduct says: "We value tangible results over having the last word in a
discussion."

2. This bug was not fixed. If you do not want to fix the issue, this would go
in the category WONTFIX and should be marked as such. 

[1] https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Laurent Montel]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Laurent Montel  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #9 from Laurent Montel  ---
(In reply to Kamil Dudka from comment #8)
> Laurent, could you please stop removing or hiding kmail's features which you
> think are not useful or important?
> 
> Those features were originally implemented for a reason and kmail's users
> have been successfully using them for quite some time.  If you keep the
> current pace of downgrading user experience with each subsequent release of
> kmail, you are going loose existing users of kmail for no real benefit.
> 
> You should really focus on fixing existing bugs instead of removing existing
> stable features that nobody complains about.

Just a question:
Are you the kmail maintainer ?
no I don't think.
I am.

So if I think that it's better to reduce menu or hide not useful feature for
enduser it's my choice.

You work on redhat so make your work as packager and stop to cry.

Thanks.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Kamil Dudka]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Kamil Dudka  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||kdu...@redhat.com

--- Comment #8 from Kamil Dudka  ---
Laurent, could you please stop removing or hiding kmail's features which you
think are not useful or important?

Those features were originally implemented for a reason and kmail's users have
been successfully using them for quite some time.  If you keep the current pace
of downgrading user experience with each subsequent release of kmail, you are
going loose existing users of kmail for no real benefit.

You should really focus on fixing existing bugs instead of removing existing
stable features that nobody complains about.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Christoph Feck]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Christoph Feck  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||kdeb...@customcdrom.de

--- Comment #7 from Christoph Feck  ---
*** Bug 388080 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Laurent Montel]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #6 from Laurent Montel  ---
(In reply to Till Schäfer from comment #5)
> I use it as an end user, e.g. to verify that a newsletter format of my
> wordpress instance is correct.

For sure you are the first people which searched it.

> 
> I also think, that "toolbar" \subseteq "menu" is a typical pattern and
> therefore is the expectation of users. Thus, having items randomly appearing
> only for the on or the other place will only create more confusion.
> 
> I also do not think that this menu item is very confusing for other users.
> Alternatively it may be possible to hide advanced features and only show
> them if you choose the advanced mode? I.e. similar to the vlc approach.

An advanced mode no it will be very hard to test 2 modes.
But I can create a plugin (disable by default) which can add action in menu.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #5 from Till Schäfer  ---
I use it as an end user, e.g. to verify that a newsletter format of my
wordpress instance is correct.

I also think, that "toolbar" \subseteq "menu" is a typical pattern and
therefore is the expectation of users. Thus, having items randomly appearing
only for the on or the other place will only create more confusion.

I also do not think that this menu item is very confusing for other users.
Alternatively it may be possible to hide advanced features and only show them
if you choose the advanced mode? I.e. similar to the vlc approach.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Laurent Montel]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #4 from Laurent Montel  ---
For me it's not a end user feature.

It's for power user feature.
If we want to clean up menu we don't need to add more extra menu entry for
power user.

There is a shortcut for it, and we can add it from toolbar if we want.

Otherwise it's not necessary to try to simplify kmail if we keep some power
user feature in menu, for sure I don't use by default this feature.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Daniel Vrátil]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Daniel Vrátil  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|WONTFIX |---
 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 CC||dvra...@kde.org

--- Comment #3 from Daniel Vrátil  ---
I don't think that's acceptable - we can't just have some options "hidden" in
the toolbar, especially when they are not enabled by default and not accessible
from the menu at all.

I had to actually look into the source code to find where the option is, that's
simply not something we can expect our users to do...

IMO toolbars should be like "favorites". They should contain actions from menus
that are very often used by users so that they can just click on the button in
the toolbar instead of having to open the menu to get to those actions, but
toolbars should *never* hide additional actions that are not accessible from
the menu. There's just *NO WAY* users will ever find those options.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Laurent Montel]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Laurent Montel  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 CC||mon...@kde.org

--- Comment #2 from Laurent Montel  ---
As wrote in comment 1

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Colin J Thomson]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Colin J Thomson  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||colin.thom...@g6avk.co.uk

--- Comment #1 from Colin J Thomson  ---
Looks like it has been moved now, a shortcut is available in the Toolbar. FYI
heres the commit:
https://cgit.kde.org/kmail.git/commit/?id=24c46184c27407a9224b11697c094d6a71e2cf7c

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Till Schäfer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Platform|Other   |Gentoo Packages

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Till Schäfer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|unspecified |5.7.0

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Till Schäfer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|KMail 5.7.0 is missing the  |KMail 5.7.0 is missing the
   |Message Structure Option|message structure option

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