Re: [kde-community] Give People Access to Great Technology - a possible vision
To summarise and expand upon my thoughts on this given the feedback from a couple of you: Essentially I feel we should be concentrating on the promoting the versatility of KDE ecosphere, and what that means to you as the user. That's really what I was driving at when I was asking the question 'What do you need KDE to be for you?' A lot of other desktop environments strangle your workflow tighter than a Steve Jobs turtleneck, they demand that you work around them and their vision, whereas I see KDE working for you and with you, no matter where your end point may be, and what you are doing at that endpoint. Let’s not forget starting points either, it should be able to grow with you, from one app to many, from apps to desktop, from desktop to phone and so on. Which is why projects like KDE for windows are so important, as it provides that first hook to reel users in with, especially business users, where change to a mid-fifties, conservative, company director happens one app at a time, over a long period of time. Now clearly I am no expert on plasma5, qml & kf5, but I have been given the impression that it is very flexible (if that's not true then please tell me and I will go back into the cupboard!); however I appreciate there will be limits to what it can and can't do, so perhaps the use of 'it could be anything' was quite rash. I thought that maybe by understanding users needs we could either provide solutions, or provide a signpost to where those solutions may lie. Each users needs are different, so I thought that by splitting between commercial and consumer needs we could consider what they are doing right now, what they would like to see in the future, and how KDE technologies can help with all that. By commercial needs I am taking about businesses in offices (or wherever), and consumers being general peeps. Sorry, this is my workplace terminology creeping in where it probably shouldn't! The reason for this is that I've found that the way businesses use equipment such as tablets and TVs can be very different to general consumers. The KDE terminology issue I’m still not really understanding I’m afraid. I understand the reasons for the splitting out of KDE (the community), KF5, Plasma 5 and applications. The problem I have is that distros are still going to be shipping a KDE variant, apps included. In the absence of KDE supplying a name for the compilation of its software being used together, then I feel the distros are going to simply use KDE or KDE 5, like they would with Gnome, or XFCE, which is wrong, or KF5/Plasma5/Apps which is crap. What’s making this more confusing is that the VDG are now discussing branding some apps along the lines of ‘Made for…’, which again I can understand why, as when Windows ships Windows 8, it comes with a picture viewer, file browser etc. But it’s still Windows 8. The only people who have come close to giving this new amalgamation of software a name is Kubuntu, with Project Neon. Maybe something like the ‘KDE Experience’ would be fitting? I don’t agree that everything should be completely separate however, there should still be links to one another, otherwise KDE becomes nothing more than a glorified Github. Hope that makes more sense. Kind Regards, David. On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 9:41 PM, Andrew Lake wrote: > Hello again, I was going to reply to each response individually but I > thought it might be simpler to do one reply. > > First off, thanks for being so so gracious in reviewing the thoughts I > shared. As I mentioned these were personal thoughts prompted by my > experience at Akademy this year. There's always a risk sharing such > thoughts with a community that barely knows me, so I'm grateful for your > kindness. > > At the risk of appearing to be defensive about the ideas expressed, permit > me to provide some clarifications: > * The ideas were not intended to communicate a "stand our ground" or a > "don't adventure beyond the desktop" vision. Rather they was intended to > say that the desktop doesn't have to be viewed as a now relatively stagnant > participant in the ecosystem. I'm not sure anyone in the community thinks > that is the case, but to the extent that there is concurrence, it seemed an > element of value worth capturing and communicating about ourselves and what > we provide. > * Regarding integration, the ideas were really intended to regard > applications, the desktop, devices and the cloud for their unique > capabilities and how they can enhance each other. That can include the > make-a-tablet/phone/cloud-version-of-[x] approach, but the hope is that it > could include other approaches as well. As noted, there are already many > efforts in the community that reflect such approaches, so it seemed an > element of value worth communicating as well. > * I'm no personal fan of exclusivity-driven integration. I'm rather a fan > of open approaches to technological integration that enables people not > hinder them. I've never sensed th
Re: [kde-community] Give People Access to Great Technology - a possible vision
Hi David, My comments below are slightly tangential to the 'vision' discussion (which is bigger and something I haven't properly thought through for myself, yet). However, here are some thoughts on one of your points, which is also important in the discussion of a vision (you wouldn't have mentioned it, if it was not) and is all about what KDE, the Frameworks, Plasma and the apps are and how they interact. On 2014-09-23 12:26, David Wright wrote: The KDE terminology issue I’m still not really understanding I’m afraid. I understand the reasons for the splitting out of KDE (the community), KF5, Plasma 5 and applications. The problem I have is that distros are still going to be shipping a KDE variant, apps included. One problem here is that you still think of a 'KDE variant' as something that is all bundled together, something we've been trying to get away from, as you acknowledge. More below... In the absence of KDE supplying a name for the compilation of its software being used together We tried this with the 'software compilation' which reflected that we did still have a bundle of stuff in reality. It didn't work that well, as there was a pre-existing name for that, KDE, which was somewhat catchier. , then I feel the distros are going to simply use KDE or KDE 5, like they would with Gnome, or XFCE, which is wrong, or KF5/Plasma5/Apps which is crap. I don't think your prediction is necessarily wrong, but I think the idea is not catching up with reality of most modern systems. I don't use only KDE apps. Most KDE people I've observed in person are not using only KDE apps. Distros should reflect this (and many do) and also/instead install the likes of Firefox, Libre Office instead of/in addition to the KDE equivalents. We're not (yet) leaders in all software fields for all use cases (personally, I actually prefer Konqueror for many tasks and use it as much as I can, but I think I might be in a minority there). So, distros that do flavours or spins should have a Plasma spin. That will likely include a majority of basic apps that are produced by KDE, e.g. Dolphin, KWrite... Also the basic functionality that is really part of the desktop experience (knetworkmanager, the KDE volume control..., which maybe should get Plasma branding too as they're unlikely to be used outside a Plasma session). For other apps, such as browser, office suite, probably media players, photo organisers I would prefer to see distros selecting the best of breed solution (which may be Firefox/Chromium, Libre Office, Amarok or VLC, Digikam) KF5 - parts of (and basic GNOME lib, among many others) will also have to be installed, as dependencies and only as required for the installed applications - modularity is one of the beauties in KF5. The non-developer user should not need to care about that, any more than they need to care which SSL library their distro packages. If you want to make some software, you look around for the best tools. If you want to use some software, you don't care what tools made it, only how the end software performs. The idea of the KDE distribution, where you get only KDE-produced apps, seems very outdated to me - we used to do that, even Krita has its roots in an attempt to make a KDEish competitor to the GIMP. But why do that? The GIMP is great. The modern Krita has instead filled gap that was lacking and become the best free software answer to that need - and you can see how that has led to success. In short, I want to choose my desktop - that's important. Beyond that, I want the distro to make some sensible choices on the default apps for common tasks (and sensible choices != always choosing the KDE app). I'll tweak the application selection to my tastes after installation. What’s making this more confusing is that the VDG are now discussing branding some apps along the lines of ‘Made for…’ I'd be very concerned about this, for any but the most basic components deeply entwined in the desktop shell (e..g things like knetworkmanager etc). The 'by KDE' tagline used for Plasma surely works much better for anything else. [snip] I don’t agree that everything should be completely separate however, there should still be links to one another, otherwise KDE becomes nothing more than a glorified Github. For me, the unifying factors are (in no order): 1 the Frameworks 2 the consistent look, feel and behaviour (if you know one KDE app, you should easily feel at home and be comfortable with another) 3 the community (and the associated commitments to free software ideals, technical excellence) Maybe I'm edging towards a 'vision' here - perhaps I'll come back with some wider comments on that in a bit. Cheers, Stu ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Give People Access to Great Technology - a possible vision
On Tuesday 23 September 2014 16:06:36 Stuart Jarvis wrote: > > What’s making this more > > confusing is that the VDG are now discussing branding some apps along > > the lines of ‘Made for…’ > > I'd be very concerned about this, for any but the most basic components > deeply entwined in the desktop shell (e..g things like knetworkmanager > etc). The 'by KDE' tagline used for Plasma surely works much better for > anything else. Just to clear things up: "Made for Plasma" was just one idea of many for the name of this, which, because we're all aware of the implications, is unlikely to be chosen in the end. We still have not found a good name yet (the problem with "by KDE" is that it would naturally apply to all KDE applications, but what we're looking for is a name we'd only give to applications that fulfill certain criteria on top of being made by KDE). See the forum thread [1] for background and the current discussion. Input is still very much appreciated, as we're still kind of at a loss for a good name. Best, Thomas [1] https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=285&t=122926 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Give People Access to Great Technology - a possible vision
Thanks for clarifying Thomas. I am too busy to reply in full now and I've realised now that I what I said could be misinterpreted. Hope I didn't upset anyone! Kind regards, David On 23 Sep 2014 17:44, "Thomas Pfeiffer" wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 16:06:36 Stuart Jarvis wrote: > > > What’s making this more > > > confusing is that the VDG are now discussing branding some apps along > > > the lines of ‘Made for…’ > > > > I'd be very concerned about this, for any but the most basic components > > deeply entwined in the desktop shell (e..g things like knetworkmanager > > etc). The 'by KDE' tagline used for Plasma surely works much better for > > anything else. > > Just to clear things up: "Made for Plasma" was just one idea of many for > the > name of this, which, because we're all aware of the implications, is > unlikely > to be chosen in the end. > We still have not found a good name yet (the problem with "by KDE" is that > it > would naturally apply to all KDE applications, but what we're looking for > is a > name we'd only give to applications that fulfill certain criteria on top of > being made by KDE). > See the forum thread [1] for background and the current discussion. > Input is still very much appreciated, as we're still kind of at a loss for > a > good name. > > Best, > Thomas > > [1] https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=285&t=122926 > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Give People Access to Great Technology - a possible vision
On Tuesday 23 September 2014 18:44:07 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Tuesday 23 September 2014 16:06:36 Stuart Jarvis wrote: > > > What’s making this more > > > confusing is that the VDG are now discussing branding some apps along > > > the lines of ‘Made for…’ > > > > I'd be very concerned about this, for any but the most basic components > > deeply entwined in the desktop shell (e..g things like knetworkmanager > > etc). The 'by KDE' tagline used for Plasma surely works much better for > > anything else. > > Just to clear things up: "Made for Plasma" was just one idea of many for the > name of this, which, because we're all aware of the implications, is > unlikely to be chosen in the end. > We still have not found a good name yet (the problem with "by KDE" is that > it would naturally apply to all KDE applications, but what we're looking > for is a name we'd only give to applications that fulfill certain criteria > on top of being made by KDE). > See the forum thread [1] for background and the current discussion. > Input is still very much appreciated, as we're still kind of at a loss for a > good name. Great, thanks for the clarification and the link. I'll give it some thought too. Cheers, Stu > [1] https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=285&t=122926 > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
