Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 6:01 PM Ingo Klöcker  wrote:

> On Mittwoch, 23. August 2023 17:16:16 CEST Niccolò Ve wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:04 PM Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
> > > On Mittwoch, 23. August 2023 16:55:25 CEST Niccolò Ve wrote:
> > > > > Postponing the deadline is not ideal, since there always will be
> > > > > people
> > > > > jumping out saying "Why wasn't I told" "Was it discussed before"
> again
> > > > > and again.
> > > >
> > > > Please note that the community was never told about this decision
> before
> > > > yesterday, and it was never discussed publicly.
> > >
> > > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-community/2023q2/007656.html
> >
> > Please read the link and the following emails. It's pretty clear that
> it's
> > not an announcement nor a request for discussion.
>
> To save others from having to click the link. The Subject of the linked
> message that was sent by Paul on 12 June 2023 reads
> "Telegram <->  Matrix bridges will be removed in September"
>
> I fail to understand how this is supposed to support your claim that "the
> community was never told about this decision before yesterday" because
> clearly
> Paul made the decision public more than 2 months ago with the linked
> message.
>

This is extremely misleading. If you actually read the post, Paul only
reports that he was told about the bridges by chance. The email is in no
way an official statement, and it's clear that - had that chance not
happened - we wouldn't have that either.
On top of that, the very first reply to that email clarifies that no such
decision had been taken, nor discussed. Thus, when reading that thread, it
seems like Paul had misunderstood and assumed the choice had been made when
it hadn't.
In retrospect he way right, but there was no way to know that.
Even worse, when a discussion regarding the (potential) decision raised,
Nate (rightfully!) shut it down by saying that, given that no official
decision or discussion was taken on the topic, it made no sense to start
discussing it.
If you actually read the email thread it is very much clear that it is *in
no way* any kind of announcement about the bridges. The thread clearly
reads as Paul said "Hey, I've been told bridges will go down on September,
is that true?!" and Kenny replying "oh, no, there's no such decision or
announcement, don't worry".
As I replied to you privately, I find it very insulting that you'd reply to
me with just one link, without actually reading what you yourself had
posted.


> Regards,
> Ingo

Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 5:04 PM Ingo Klöcker  wrote:

> On Mittwoch, 23. August 2023 16:55:25 CEST Niccolò Ve wrote:
> > > Postponing the deadline is not ideal, since there always will be people
> > > jumping out saying "Why wasn't I told" "Was it discussed before" again
> > > and again.
> >
> > Please note that the community was never told about this decision before
> > yesterday, and it was never discussed publicly.
>
> https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-community/2023q2/007656.html


Please read the link and the following emails. It's pretty clear that it's
not an announcement nor a request for discussion. In fact, when a
discussion started happening, Nate rightfully shot it down.


>

Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

> Postponing the deadline is not ideal, since there always will be people
> jumping out saying "Why wasn't I told" "Was it discussed before" again
> and again.

Please note that the community was never told about this decision before
yesterday, and it was never discussed publicly.

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 4:40 PM Fusion Future  wrote:

> +1 for the decision. I don't feel it very necessary to maintain the
> Telegram bridge as GNOME chat rooms are also Matrix/IRC only. I also see
> the Telegram bridge becomes more and more reliable in other non-KDE
> groups, so it's increasingly annoying that sometimes messages sent from
> Matrix can't be seen on the other side without senders knowing it. The
> decision will greatly save both developers and normal users' time since
> messages will be sent and read in a central place.
>
> Postponing the deadline is not ideal, since there always will be people
> jumping out saying "Why wasn't I told" "Was it discussed before" again
> and again.
>
>
>
>

Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

> 3rd party
> social network platforms need moderators/user support.

And Promo time. A LOT of promo time. Maintaing 3rd party social network
platforms is much, much, much more time expensive compared to maintaining
the bridge.


On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 2:05 PM Ilmari Lauhakangas <
ilmari.lauhakan...@libreoffice.org> wrote:

> On 23.8.2023 14.24, Paul Brown wrote:
> > A lot fo good ideas we can use to reach a compromise, but this ...
> >
> >> KDE members are of course free to participate in discussions anywhere
> >> they want, but loading KDE resources (sysadmin team & machines) with all
> >> possible proprietary network doesn't seem a priority for me.
> >
> > ... 
> >
> > By that logic, would you have a problem if Promo stopped managing
> Facebook
> > (65,000+ followers), Xitter (120,000+ followers), LinkedIn (17,000+
> > followers), and Reddit (100,000+ followers)? These are all proprietary
> and all
> > load KDE's resources. But it is KDE's Promo resources.
> >
> > If Promo didn't manage these platforms, KDE would gradually lose this
> > audience, and I can prove that with graphs.
>
> It's not the same logic. Chat platforms with bridging infrastructure
> need moderators/user support + sysadmin time + hardware. 3rd party
> social network platforms need moderators/user support. If Facebook et
> al. would be bridged to the KDE chat infra (dark magic like this might
> awaken the Great Old Ones and should not be attempted), it would be the
> same logic.
>
> Ilmari
>

Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

Just to confirm: this means that if we find a more reliable way to bridge
the channels we can avoid this?
If so, I'd be happy to give it a shot.

~Nicco

Il giorno mer 23 ago 2023 alle ore 10:27 Ingo Klöcker  ha
scritto:

> On Mittwoch, 23. August 2023 09:34:04 CEST Tomaz Canabrava wrote:
> > (On top of what Paul said, if this happens, should we also stop with the
> > Reddit and Facebook management, since it’s a closed source software on
> for
> > profit companies?)
>
> The Telegram bridging is shut down because of unmanageable technical
> problems
> and not for political reasons. If it ran smoothly, then I don't think it
> would
> be shut down. Don't read more into this than there is. In particular, this
> isn't a conspiracy against Telegram users.
>
> Regards,
> Ingo



-- 
Niccolò Venerandi

Re: [announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

[Niccolò Ve]

This is a terribly careless decision, for multiple reasons.

Firstly, this is something that has a strong impact on the entire community
and, because of that, it should've been discussed publicly before agreeing
on this. I had been told this was going to happen, but only through private
messages and without really any chance to argue against this. No chance has
been given to discuss the consequences of this action, nor to discuss how
to best address the technical issues related to the bridge maintenance.

Secondly, the transition timeframe is way too small. There are a very big
number of Telegram channels, and some even lack a Matrix counterpart.
Telegram links used in multiple KDE wiki pages, and it will take time to
shift all the chats over to Matrix. Taking Promo as an example, who knew
this was happening some weeks ago: some chat have been successfully ported
to Matrix, but it will take much more time to shift them all; this means
that, after the 20th of Sept., Promo coordinators like Paul will have to
handle both the Telegram and Matrix that's separately; or, we close down
the Telegram channels before the transition is completed, which is even
worse.

Thirdly, this will make KDE lose contributors. The majority of developers
I've worked with throughout my KDE experience has used Telegram as their
main channel, and only a few switched over to Matrix when asked to. For
many, this worked mean installing one extra application(with terrible UX)
just to be able to contribute to KDE; it wouldn't be an issue if they were
employees, but we're all volunteers here and most likely those people will
either not switch at all or slowly open that application less and less.

This includes me; I have very little interest in forcing myself to use e.g.
buggy phone applications exclusively to contribute as a volunteer and in my
free time.

Fourth, this will make onboarding so much harder. All developers I've seen
and helped onboard KDE have joined through Telegram, because that's what
they had and it was easy for them. Again, same applies to me: I never
would've joined KDE if it wasn't for the Telegram channels.

Fifth, the technological reasons given for this choice are lacking. It
assumes that we use UserBots instead of normal bots (the limit of 1 message
every 3 seconds is too restrictive?); it talks about issues with admin
privileges of the bridge, without explaining why they would be necessary.
It complains about spam over the telegram side: some channels introduced a
captcha when users joined and that worked really well, why can't we use
that for all channels? And so on: there are tons of questions and different
approach that are lacking in the exploitation, which is particularly bad
considering just how damaging the decision is to KDE,

Of course, please don't bother replying to this paragraph with answers to
my questions: this should've happened in the discussion phase of the
choice, which you entirely ignored. I had expressed interest in helping out
figuring out a solution to the bridging issue, but of course - since I had
only been told about this privately - I had done that privately. I could've
done that publicly if you had warned about what was going to happen.

I will be happy to do everything I'll be asked to as part of my work; but
as far as free time goes, this choice makes it harder for me to contribute
to KDE and - as a result - I'll most likely fade out my free-time
contributions over time.

~Nicco



On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 9:02 AM Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss 
wrote:

> Hello KDE community,
>
> apologies for cross-posting!
>
> The time has finally come: both Telegram <-> Matrix bridges will be shut
> down in 4 weeks on *Wednesday 20 September*. Let's start the
> co-ordination process now so everything goes as smoothly as possible.
>
> For all KDE contributors: please read at least the "Five To-Dos" below
> to be informed about what will happen and what needs to be done.
>
> Below that there is some additional information about the bridging
> situation at KDE. Consult these notes if you want more background
> information about why the Telegram bridge is being retired.
>
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> _Five To-Dos_
>
>1. *General*: On Wednesday 20 September the Telegram bridging to KDE
> Matrix rooms will be shut down. To make the transition go smoothly,
> teams should start co-ordinating for the shutdown now. The Matrix room
> for co-ordination is "Telegram shutdown co-ordination" at
> https://go.kde.org/matrix/#/#telegram-shutdown:kde.org.
>
>2. *Co-ordination*: This includes: (i) migrating all contributors to
> Matrix, and (ii) deleting the Telegram rooms before the bridge is
> shutdown or -- at most -- one day after the shutdown. Keeping Telegram
> rooms open when they are no longer being used will cause unnecessary
> confusion. Importantly, do not later add a non-KDE Telegram bridge to
> KDE's Matrix rooms as that will not solve the problems from doubled user
> accounts and lack of control over 

Re: On the reappointment of Richard Stallman as a director of the FSF

[Niccolò Ve]

They

Il giorno gio 1 apr 2021 alle ore 12:45 Ingo Klöcker  ha
scritto:

> On Donnerstag, 1. April 2021 00:27:57 CEST Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> > I feel that making a distinction between "KDE e.V. Board of Directors"
> and
> > "KDE e.V." is artificial, the board of directors have been democratically
> > elected to talk in name of KDE e.V.
>
> Hmm, okay. The board may talk in the name of the KDE e.V., but that
> doesn't
> mean it talks in the name of all members of the KDE e.V., the same way
> that a
> democratically elected government talks in the name of the corresponding
> country as a whole, but certainly doesn't talk in the name of each of its
> citizens.
>

They talk in the name of the *country*. If you are elected as a
representative of Italy, you
talk in the name of Italy. Not "part of" Italy, not "most of" Italy, not
"all of" Italy, just Italy.
If you are elected representative of KDE, you speak in the name of KDE.


> Regards,
> Ingo
>


-- 
Niccolò Venerandi

Re: Apology

[Niccolò Ve]

Hi.

> Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.

This is... plain out wrong. Off topic means off topic.
A RMS reply to a thread about RMS is NOT off topic.
If you want to shutdown the discussion, just say so.
The fact that RMS is not "the issue" (he's surely _an_ issue...) does not
change that
the kde community email was about RMS. I sent an email 10 hours *before*
this apology.
It was rejected just* now.* As offtopic.

I did not like that thread, but this handling of the situation is plain out
bad. This apology
mail only made things worse. If I did not know about KDE, I'd say that they
are censoring
the discussion. Instead I'm just embarrassed.

Even the original motivation for putting the ML under moderation could've
been worded better,
it raised complaints from some people I know.

Putting an email under manual moderation requires that manual moderation to
happen much,
much faster than 10 hours. If help is needed in moderating, please say so.
If you want to shutdown the discussion about RMS, say it was getting too
aggressive, not that
it's "offtopic".

Niccolò

Il giorno ven 26 mar 2021 alle ore 20:36 Valorie Zimmerman <
valorie.zimmer...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Hello my friends,
>
> When I put this list on emergency moderation, I felt that this was
> necessary. It still seems so, but I want to lift moderation as soon as
> possible.
>
> I may have played a part in continuing the negative thread that "wouldn't
> die" by expressing my own opinion. I should have followed my own advice and
> walked away after writing my email and then removed parts which expressed a
> personal opinion.
>
> While I may disagree with others about the value of RMS to Free Software,
> he is not the issue. The more organizations I've been involved with, the
> more I realize the value of good governance. The FSF has been critical to
> the growth of Free Software, and the recent news about their Board is very
> worrying.
>
> My statement did not do anything to convey that or to help, and for that I
> am truly sorry.
>
> Posts about Richard Stallman are off-topic and will not be allowed.
>
> Thanks to those of you who called my attention to my part in all of this.
>
> All the best to each of you, to KDE and all of the Free software
> communities,
>
> Valorie
>
> --
> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>


-- 
Niccolò Venerandi

Re: RMS and open letter

[Niccolò Ve]

In answer to ren...@kde.org:
> It is quite clear that we are very far from a consensus on this
> question. So please, don't try to push KDE as an organization to sign
> such a letter. Each people can choose to sign it under its own name or
not.

Three or four people against a proposal hardly count as very far from a
consensus, just like
three or four people for it doesn't. And this is probably eV matters?
I guess an email should be sent to the ev ml and a vote should happen there.
I'd happily support such vote.

In answer to notm...@gmail.com:
> and i don't really have anything against RMS per se...
Even after reading the appendix ?
The part where he justifies child sex? or underplayed rape? Or that saying
that
children with Down's syndrome are pets? Intentionally using the wrong
pronoun? Anything? I mean...
I'm also not a big fan of the wording of the open letter; still, I feel
like we should kind of all agree that RMS did
and said extremely inappropriate things (to say the least).
Yes, I do agree on the "kinda misses the point" part. But I do not think
that saying "We don't want to have *anything*
to do with him or the org. that supports him, he's terrible" is on par with
what he said.

In answer to aben...@kde.org:
> If we would judge the legacy of a human being by his/her behaviour, there
would be no rock
We are not judging the legacy of RMS based on his behaviour, afaic. We are
saying that - given his behaviour - he is unfit
for such a position in the free software movement.

In answer to valorie.simmer...@gmail.com:
> Valorie, [...] against supporting pedophilia and pedophiles
I'm also very much against supporting offending pedophiles / pedophiles who
act on their desire.
I'm instead happy to support non-offending pedophiles / pedophiles who *do
not* act on their desire and never would.
Quite OT, but I think it's an important distinction to be made. Sorry for
nitpicking.

In answer to j...@vandenoever.info:
> The accusations are very broad and mostly are about opinions that
> he has
Accusations are quite specific and are about his behaviour and opinions.
Specific examples of opinions that make you
unfit for such a position are: justifying child sex, comparing down's
sindrome to being a pet. Specific examples of
behaviours that make un unfit for such a position: intentionally using a
wrong pronoun, mistreating women.
If all the above is to be forgotten because "it's not related to free
software", then we truly live in a sick world,
what can I say. But it certainly not "broad" nor "only about opinions".
> Is it sensible of FSF to reinstate Stallman? I've no idea.
*sigh*
> The letter talks about 'his hurtful and dangerous ideology'. If RMS is
known
> for any ideology, it's Free Software
and the whole pedophilia thing. You know, it's not like people did not
notice at all.
There are videos and articles about it. And I'm really not sure we want to
associate free software image with *that*.

[/rant]
Niccolò

Il giorno mer 24 mar 2021 alle ore 10:59 Marco Martin 
ha scritto:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 9:52 PM Eike Hein  wrote:
> >
> > With the dot-org hat on, I wish the Open Letter had a little bit more of
> a dot-org focus instead of focusing on the individual.
> >
> > What the current controversy highlights is that FSF board changes occur
> without an election and without significant transparency.[1]
> >
> > This is not KDE e.V.'s organizational setup, and it's also not the setup
> we would like to see in an organization that aims to centrally represent
> Free Software. It's also likely that the current and other situations would
> have been prevented by a healthier, more participatory board setup.
> >
> > I think the discussion of where to take the FSF (or representation for
> Free Software communities in general) next is what matters beyond the
> current moment in time. This is worth thinking about in the coming days,
> and also discussing with our partner dot-orgs.
>
> So much this!
> asking to remove rms because he had toxic behaviors is really a
> strawman argument and completely misses the point.
> RMS *is* unfit for that position, yes.
> He *did* say horrible horrible things, yes.
>
> but the question is: why didn't he have to run for election (and such,
> probably lose) in order to enter the board again?
>
> --
> Marco Martin
>


-- 
Niccolò Venerandi