Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?

[Stephen Kelly]

Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:

> On Freitag, 13. Mai 2016 11:06:18 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote:
>> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein  wrote:
>> > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote:
>> >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing
>> >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software
>> >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include
>> >> lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so
>> >> yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for
>> >> free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and
>> >> probably also with other experienced engineers?
>> > 
>> > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you
>> > think free software matters.
>> 
>> I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on
>> some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for
>> free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially
>> well-)paid in return elsewhere.
> 
> Here is my perspective on this:
> I don't know the actual relative numbers, but many of the commercially

The topic of money is quite narrow, and money attracts people regardless of 
whether they have experience.

I'm looking for broader thoughts on the topic of the thread. If you wish, 
re-read my original mail, but with the constraint that we're talking about 
'volunteer/free-time' development.

Thanks,

Steve.

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Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?

[Stephen Kelly]

Eike Hein wrote:

> - It's really neat to go to sleep at night knowing what I do all day
>doesn't screw anybody over.
> 
> - It's even neater to go to sleep at night knowing what I make can't
>be easily erased/hidden from existence, and is trivially discoverable
>as my calling card.
> 
> - Very few among the total population of software engineers get to
>work on the types of products I work on, or with the level of input
>I get into fashioning those products.
> 
> - What I make enables others and generally gives them more options.
> 
> - I'm very fond of the people I work with.

To keep on the topic of the thread - are you saying that these are the 
things you focus on that would attract experienced contributors (as opposed 
to students - your list looks like it applies independently of experience 
mostly)? 

I'm more interested in 'what are the things that experienced people look 
for, which students do not?', and 'do we have those things?' and 'can we 
make noise about them to attract experienced people?'. Do you have a 
response to that?

Thanks,

Steve.
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[kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?

[Stephen Kelly]

Hello,

I'm interested in how and whether KDE attempts to attract experienced
engineers, creators like writers and designers, curators like sysadmins and
leaders/community managers etc into the KDE community.

It seems to me that many/most KDE contributors enter as inexperienced, and
learn the tools and processes as they go, at least in the engineering
section.

I'm included in that group - when I started to get involved in KDE in
2007 I had no prior experience with SVN, Qt, CMake, or even C++ to a 
large extent, though I had some experience of online communities. That path 
led me to gain lots of experience and expertise in git, Qt, CMake and C++, 
which has formed the basis for my career.

These days, KDE has many programs to attract young people, largely students,
such as GSOC, GCI, SOK and other outreach. That seems to work well and KDE
has great experiences and contributors with those programs.

Does KDE make any particular effort to attract experienced contributors? Is
KDE attractive to someone who already has experience in their field?

Do we know what experienced people need or want? I have the feeling that at
least for programming, experienced people:

* Have already gained experience working in teams
* Already know C++ and Qt
* Already know the tools they can use to write and debug programs
* Already know how to make use of issue tracking and CI systems
* Can create quality designs and implementations
* Already value git and write good commits
* Already value code reviews with experienced colleagues
* Already value unit tests and write them
* Already have experience in at least one particular
  domain (be it coding for graphics/audio/video creation,
  communication/PIM, math/computation, admin, etc)

What do experienced people look for?

What makes an experienced person spend their time on FOSS?

Perhaps we can make some claims of answers to these questions and related
ones, and then gather them to try to analyze the truth of them.

Thanks,

Steve.

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - final version

[Stephen Kelly]

Lydia Pintscher wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> "A world in which everyone enjoys freedom and privacy and has control
> over their digital life."
> 
> Unless there are major objections within the next week I would like to
> conclude the process and from now on use this as our vision statement.

Not a major objection, but some feedback: It's very wordy at the end 
especially with all the 'and's in it. 

For me that's loss of impact. 

I much preferred what Jos arrived at:  

 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.community/2455/focus=2523

I didn't see what took it back in that wordy direction after that part of 
the discussion.

Thanks!

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Stephen Kelly wrote:

>> - using solutions which can survive long-term
> 
> Implied by the vision.

Actually I take this back. It's not implied by a vision. The question is out 
of scope.

A vision is not done, and a 'solution' is out of scope.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Alexander Neundorf wrote:

>> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in ->
>> over) seems a great vision.
> 
> personally I'd like to have included that this can be done

At least in my view (see my mail), a vision is not 'done' at all. It is only 
for inspiration.

> - independent from the commercial interest of companies

Out of scope of the vision. See also my mail.

> - available for everybody to use

The vision Jos and I discuss says 'everyone'. See also my mail.

> - using solutions which can survive long-term

Implied by the vision.

The vision is intentionally vague and not-concrete and has no 'method', no 
'done', etc.

I don't know if you read my mail, but I'd encourage you to do so.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:22:22 PM AMT Stephen Kelly wrote:
>> So for me, this is quite good:
>> 
>>  "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"
>> 
>> I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It
>> is also more concise.
> 
> I think she got sidetracked by the search for a slogan - I had the same,
> really liking what she wrote, then reading your mail and realizing it was
> a slogan, not a vision...

Cool, thanks for reading my mail and clearing up the side-track!

> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in ->
> over) seems a great vision.

Seems great to me too.
 
> To execute, we'd need to 

From my perspective (see my mail), if you're 'executing', then you're not 
talking about a vision anymore. You don't execute a vision. You *just* use 
it for inspiration.

> Of course, next KDE would have to define mission and strategy, in which
> more detailed things like "end user facing software", "cross-platform",
> "Qt" and more could or could not find a place.

Yep.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Valorie Zimmerman wrote:

> Oooo, Steve! Thank you for capping off an excellent discussion.
> 
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Stephen Kelly <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think the form
>>
>>  "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"
>>
>> is fantastic!
>>
>> It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all.
>> It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'
>> It is inspirational
>>
> After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:

It seems your thoughts are not the same as my words at all :). Your 
suggestion seems to be exactly the opposite of what I wrote in many ways. 

Maybe I don't understand what you mean or what you want to communicate with 
that sentence.

> KDE: control your digital life

You dropped the reference to 'everyone'. You added a reference to KDE. You 
dropped the 'a world in which' making it less inspirational. Altogether it 
seems to me more like a marketing slogan.

Can you say why you made those changes?

Something I think you are right about is:

> Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.

So for me, this is quite good:

 "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"

I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It is 
also more concise.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> I had very similar thoughts when I read the above. I immediately thought
> "No, I don't want only all users of _our_ technology to enjoys freedom,
> etc." I want all 7+ billion human beings living on this planet
> (including the ISS) to enjoy freedom, privacy and control.

Thanks Ingo for your contributions in these threads! You've really helped 
me to realize what this discussion is all about. In particular, in 

 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.community/2422

you made the point that a vision statement can be something which is not 
achievable by that organization alone (or even at all!).

It also doesn't make a reference to the organization itself (that would be 
a self reference).

> "a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over their 
> digital life"

I think the form 

 "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"

is fantastic!

The exact expression and placement of commas in the  part needs to be 
considered to make it as universally understandable as possible and easily 
remembered as possible.

Things I like about this:

1) It is 'non-exclusive'

It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all. 

It's 'the vision from nowhere', so it is easy to attach to without feeling 
like subscribing to some organizations entire agenda. 

It doesn't even have an action verb like 'working towards' or such, so it's 
'something to keep in mind as a guiding principle' that you can just 
meditate on instead of 'doing something about this problem in the world'. 

Because there is no 'action', there is no method prescribed to achieve the 
vision. That's good, because the method is the realm of the mission.

'KDE envisions' is redundant because it 'KDE envisions KDEs vision'.

Notice that almost none of the examples at 

 https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/

use a self reference.

A vision isn't a place to put a brand.

2) It is easily shared

A vision seems to be something that could be mistakenly for the vision of 
any number of organizations. Without checking the list, you can read these 
and guess any of about 5 organizations that could have it as their vision:

 * A just world without poverty
 * To become a world leader at connecting people to wildlife and 
conservation.
 * A world where everyone has a decent place to live.
 * Equality for everyone
 * For every child, life in all its fullness; Our prayer for every heart, 
the will to make it so

3) It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'

Compare with:

 * ... *everyone* has a decent place to live ...
 * ... connecting *people* to wildlife ...
 * Equality for *everyone* ...
 * For *every child* ...
 * *all animals*
 * *future generations* 
 * *Every person* has the opportunity ...
 * *every child* attains the right ...
 * *all people* – even in the most remote areas of the globe ...

The counter examples are for organizations which are inherently exclusive, 
describing the subset of 'all' people who they address:

 * A hunger-free America
 * people with intellectual disabilities
 * eligible youth in America
 * veterans

KDE is not inherently exclusive, so those don't seem to be good examples 
for 
KDE to follow.

4) It relates to a universally relateable aspect of being a human in 2016

That is, 'digital life'.

Compare with other aspects of 'being a human' that appear in the list:

 * poverty - even if you don't know it, you can't avoid it, and you know 
what you do to keep yourself out of it.
 * hunger-free
 * Equality
 * a decent place to live
 * the power of a wish
 * life in all its fullness
 * the opportunity to achieve his/her fullest potential
 * the power to create opportunity for themselves and others

5) It has a recognizable, idealistic, completely unachievable goal

Something along the lines of 

 * control - over digitally 'social' presence, absence etc
 * control - over availability of digital services
 * privacy - choosing what to share, knowingly
 * freedom - to be forgotten
 * freedom - to have, share, learn, modify, teach

Though I'm not sure 'freedom' should be in the vision - I think that's the 
means/prerequisite to achieve personal control and choice of privacy. 
Having 
freedom in the vision makes it overlap with the 4 freedoms. 

But what are the 4 freedoms attempting to achieve? Something like the 
answer 
to that could be the vision.

Compare:

 * A just world without poverty
 * everyone has a decent place to live
 * a sustainable world
 * save a planet
 * survival, protection, development and participation

7) It is hard to disagree with the content of it

Who would counter it with a claim that everyone shouldn't have 
control/privacy/freedom by default?

8) It is vague and non-specific

This is good! If it's specific it's divisive!

9) It is completely un-dangerous

It won't help us make difficult decisions. It's not useful in that sense at 
all. 

And that's a good thing! That would be like a CEO micromanaging an some 
workers' tools. The