[kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
Hello KDE-ers, Mozilla Thunderbird is looking for a new home [1]. They are evaluating a number of options. KDE was not in the initial list of options, but I think KDE and Thunderbird would be an excellent fit. This mail goes to kde-community@kde.org and to a number KDE members that work on email. Please respond to kde-community to keep the thread on one place. I would like to hear what you think about the idea of Mozilla Thunderbird joining KDE next to KMail, Kontact, Kube, and Trojita. I think we can all benefit from being in one community and infrastructure. Best regards, Jos https://lwn.net/Articles/685060/ ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On Dienstag, 26. April 2016 16:03:43 CEST Jos van den Oever wrote: > Hello KDE-ers, > > Mozilla Thunderbird is looking for a new home [1]. They are evaluating a > number of options. KDE was not in the initial list of options, but I think > KDE and Thunderbird would be an excellent fit. > > This mail goes to kde-community@kde.org and to a number KDE members that > work on email. Please respond to kde-community to keep the thread on one > place. > > I would like to hear what you think about the idea of Mozilla Thunderbird > joining KDE next to KMail, Kontact, Kube, and Trojita. I think we can all > benefit from being in one community and infrastructure. > > Best regards, > Jos > > https://lwn.net/Articles/685060/ I'm all for offering Thunderbird to join KDE! This is not because I wouldn't believe in our own E-Mail offerings (otherwise I wouldn't be part of the Kube team as well as mentor a university project within KMail, would I?), but because KDE has never had a problem of being home to multiple applications in the same area, and I think they'd be more likely to benefit from one another than to "cannibalize" each other. I also believe that showing a welcoming attitude towards popular projects looking for a new home can only benefit us in general. Cheers, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On martedì 26 aprile 2016 18:30:30 CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Dienstag, 26. April 2016 16:03:43 CEST Jos van den Oever wrote: > > Hello KDE-ers, > > > > Mozilla Thunderbird is looking for a new home [1]. They are evaluating a > > number of options. KDE was not in the initial list of options, but I think > > KDE and Thunderbird would be an excellent fit. > > > > This mail goes to kde-community@kde.org and to a number KDE members that > > work on email. Please respond to kde-community to keep the thread on one > > place. > > > > I would like to hear what you think about the idea of Mozilla Thunderbird > > joining KDE next to KMail, Kontact, Kube, and Trojita. I think we can all > > benefit from being in one community and infrastructure. > > > > Best regards, > > Jos > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/685060/ > > I'm all for offering Thunderbird to join KDE! > This is not because I wouldn't believe in our own E-Mail offerings > (otherwise I wouldn't be part of the Kube team as well as mentor a > university project within KMail, would I?), but because KDE has never had a > problem of being home to multiple applications in the same area, and I > think they'd be more likely to benefit from one another than to > "cannibalize" each other. > This, so much. I see no reason not to expand our presence in different segments of the e-mail clients market, if Thunderbird wishes to join us. The more, the merrier. A huge +1. Cheers, -- Teo Mrnjavac http://teom.org | t...@kde.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On 04/27/2016 01:58 AM, Teo Mrnjavac wrote: This, so much. I see no reason not to expand our presence in different segments of the e-mail clients market, if Thunderbird wishes to join us. The more, the merrier. I'm not sure they're a good fit for us, unless they bring significant manpower/funding with them or continue to enjoy Mozilla backing in some form. Thunderbird is used to being developed within an extensive eco- system of Mozilla infrastructure (including their customized or home- grown bug tracking, CI, test, etc. sites/systems); porting it either to our infra or setting up infra for them would probably be a significant task we don't have the resources for. There's also the problem that Thunderbird is a massive codebase with few people working on it, and built on technology that's predictably legacy (Gecko will ultimately die in favor of Servo; also nobody at Mozilla seems to like XPCOM or god forbid XUL for years now). These pose significant hurdles to the Thunderbird project I'm not convinced it can scale, even with our help. Incubator, yes. Project cemetary, no. I think cost/benefit and outlook say 'no' here. Cheers, Cheers, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
Hi, On 26 April 2016 at 22:38, Eike Hein wrote: > > > On 04/27/2016 01:58 AM, Teo Mrnjavac wrote: >> >> This, so much. I see no reason not to expand our presence in different >> segments of the e-mail clients market, if Thunderbird wishes to join us. >> The >> more, the merrier. > > > I'm not sure they're a good fit for us, unless they bring significant > manpower/funding with them or continue to enjoy Mozilla backing in some > form. Thunderbird is used to being developed within an extensive eco- > system of Mozilla infrastructure (including their customized or home- > grown bug tracking, CI, test, etc. sites/systems); porting it either > to our infra or setting up infra for them would probably be a > significant task we don't have the resources for. > > There's also the problem that Thunderbird is a massive codebase with > few people working on it, and built on technology that's predictably > legacy (Gecko will ultimately die in favor of Servo; also nobody at > Mozilla seems to like XPCOM or god forbid XUL for years now). These > pose significant hurdles to the Thunderbird project I'm not convinced > it can scale, even with our help. > > Incubator, yes. Project cemetary, no. I think cost/benefit and outlook > say 'no' here. I'm going to second Eike here. My gut feeling says Thunderbird is going to go the way of Apache OpenOffice, and we'd just be a graveyard for it, not an incubator. -- Boudhayan Gupta ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
> On 26 Apr 2016, at 19:54, Boudhayan Gupta wrote: > >> There's also the problem that Thunderbird is a massive codebase with >> few people working on it, and built on technology that's predictably >> legacy (Gecko will ultimately die in favor of Servo; also nobody at >> Mozilla seems to like XPCOM or god forbid XUL for years now). These >> pose significant hurdles to the Thunderbird project I'm not convinced >> it can scale, even with our help. >> >> Incubator, yes. Project cemetary, no. I think cost/benefit and outlook >> say 'no' here. > > I'm going to second Eike here. My gut feeling says Thunderbird is > going to go the way of Apache OpenOffice, and we'd just be a graveyard > for it, not an incubator. +1. -1 for adopting Thunderbird. Unless a large group of contributors show up spontaneously that is really enthusiastic about working on it. Cheers, Mirko. -- Mirko Boehm | mi...@kde.org | KDE e.V. FSFE Fellow, FSFE Team Germany Qt Certified Specialist Request a meeting: https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Eike Hein wrote: > > > On 04/27/2016 01:58 AM, Teo Mrnjavac wrote: > >> This, so much. I see no reason not to expand our presence in different >> segments of the e-mail clients market, if Thunderbird wishes to join us. >> The >> more, the merrier. >> > > I'm not sure they're a good fit for us, unless they bring significant > manpower/funding with them or continue to enjoy Mozilla backing in some > form. Thunderbird is used to being developed within an extensive eco- > system of Mozilla infrastructure (including their customized or home- > grown bug tracking, CI, test, etc. sites/systems); porting it either > to our infra or setting up infra for them would probably be a > significant task we don't have the resources for. > > There's also the problem that Thunderbird is a massive codebase with > few people working on it, and built on technology that's predictably > legacy (Gecko will ultimately die in favor of Servo; also nobody at > Mozilla seems to like XPCOM or god forbid XUL for years now). These > pose significant hurdles to the Thunderbird project I'm not convinced > it can scale, even with our help. > > Incubator, yes. Project cemetary, no. I think cost/benefit and outlook > say 'no' here. > Given how respected, appreciated and well-used Thunderbird has been in my experience, including industrial environments (only dream for certain KDE subprojects?), I would suggest having a bit more good faith at this point. Such early conclusions have been brought up about the Qt framework as well after the Nokia decline. I am now being told that the Qt business has been doing really well instead. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp > > > Cheers, >> > > Cheers, > Eike > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On 04/27/2016 03:20 AM, Laszlo Papp wrote: Given how respected, appreciated and well-used Thunderbird has been in my experience, including industrial environments (only dream for certain KDE subprojects?), I would suggest having a bit more good faith at this point. Such early conclusions have been brought up about the Qt framework as well after the Nokia decline. I am now being told that the Qt business has been doing really well instead. I'm not saying Thunderbird doesn't have users at present. I'm saying its usage numbers have failed to translate to a revenue stream or an excess of manpower; problems severe enough its original parent organization has struggled to keep it going. On top of that, it's facing immense technological challenges in the relatively near future that will make it harder, not easier to develop further. Thunderbird joining KDE.org would require us to invest resources (monetary, but also the time and motivation of e.g. our sysadmins and our board). Can we recoup those? Why us if others could not? Best Regards, Laszlo Papp Cheers, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
Dear Eike, On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Eike Hein wrote: > > > On 04/27/2016 03:20 AM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > >> Given how respected, appreciated and well-used Thunderbird has been in >> my experience, including industrial environments (only dream for certain >> KDE subprojects?), I would suggest having a bit more good faith at this >> point. Such early conclusions have been brought up about the Qt >> framework as well after the Nokia decline. I am now being told that the >> Qt business has been doing really well instead. >> > > I'm not saying Thunderbird doesn't have users at present. I'm > saying its usage numbers have failed to translate to a revenue > stream or an excess of manpower; problems severe enough its > original parent organization has struggled to keep it going. > * As I know, there was some decline in the payment of Kubuntu developer(s) by Canonical, too. * KO Gmbh could not continue its operation either as hoped for. * How about the business behind Plasma Mobile that AS was trying to establish? (This is really not about blaming any of the participants. I am really happy and grateful that they have all tried to do their best for this community!) These are just three examples of those that I am aware of. I could provide more if needed, but I am not sure revenue defines a KDE project or some support withdrawn behind a project. It is in my understanding neither in the manifesto, nor the vision. I would even go further claiming that many (most?) KDE projects have never made it to that level, so for me, Thunderbird as a project is something to look upon even if it is currently having issues to be resolved. On top of that, it's facing immense technological challenges in > the relatively near future that will make it harder, not easier > to develop further. > > Thunderbird joining KDE.org would require us to invest > resources (monetary, but also the time and motivation of e.g. > our sysadmins and our board). Can we recoup those? Why us if > others could not? > Would it be possible for you to give a rough estimate with concrete numbers so that we can better understand the impact? As I know, a couple of years ago, the sysadmins were processing the infrastructure set up quite quickly. They had done an excellent job at this. I understand your concern of for instance migrating bugreports, but do they really have to be, at least right away? I believe the monetary issues could be discussed for KDE as a whole. I am not sure that they are only relevant for one or two particular subprojects. For instance, Thunderbird could also do its own fundraising relying on the success of that to a great extent. (By the way, I am now writing writing these lines as a non-thunderbird user before claiming any bias. I am still a happy mutt user. :-) ) Best Regards, Laszlo Papp > Best Regards, >> Laszlo Papp >> > > Cheers, > Eike > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On 04/27/2016 04:02 AM, Laszlo Papp wrote: I would even go further claiming that many (most?) KDE projects have never made it to that level, so for me, Thunderbird as a project is something to look upon even if it is currently having issues to be resolved. Yes yes, I get you're very eager to make these comparisons. They don't in any away read on my argument, though, which is solely about whether we could actually afford to incubate Thunderbird (a resource question) and whether it stands a chance of recouping that investment. I have dim views on both, taking both its history and present situation into account. KDE's doesn't matter (or just in terms of how it pertains to our resource situation). Noting further that Thunderbird has made it to that level on the back of funding sources unrelated to the product, e.g. Mozilla's search-based revenue stream for Firefox. Is there any evidence to suggest that Thunderbird has ever been independently viable? Because if it's not then it's a drain on the resources of whatever org hosts it, and try as I might I can't see a compelling argument for a resource drain. Would it be possible for you to give a rough estimate with concrete numbers so that we can better understand the impact? No, but I'm happy you've volunteered to be on the task force that will research them to address those concerns adequately before committing our resources. As I know, a couple of years ago, the sysadmins were processing the infrastructure set up quite quickly. They had done an excellent job at this. Thanks -- a couple of years ago I was part of that team. There's been a lot of turnover since and the overall team size has shrunk I believe. The sysadmin team is also still taxed with the rollout of our own new infra (Phab). I understand your concern of for instance migrating bugreports, but do they really have to be, at least right away? Tinderbox et all are far bigger issues. I believe the monetary issues could be discussed for KDE as a whole. I am not sure that they are only relevant for one or two particular subprojects. Do you think there should be discussion before sending invites to other projects / incubation attempts, or are we obligated to seek out anything that can be made to fit the Manifesto? If you decide we're not obligated and allowed to have debate, then you're likely looking at a cost/benefit analysis for the affected project. For instance, Thunderbird could also do its own fundraising relying on the success of that to a great extent. Maybe. How's Thunderbird's fundraising track record so far? (By the way, I am now writing writing these lines as a non-thunderbird user before claiming any bias. I am still a happy mutt user. :-) ) I'm writing them in Thunderbird. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp Cheers, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] A new home for Mozilla Thunderbird at KDE?
On Wednesday 27 April 2016 03:33:33 Eike Hein wrote: > On top of that, it's facing immense technological challenges in > the relatively near future that will make it harder, not easier > to develop further. > > Thunderbird joining KDE.org would require us to invest > resources (monetary, but also the time and motivation of e.g. > our sysadmins and our board). Can we recoup those? Why us if > others could not? Mozilla recognizes these problems. They have a position for an independent contractor to help with that [1]. We are seeking an independent analysis of the technical risks and options available to Thunderbird. As such, we are looking for someone with as many of the following as possible: experience working in large, complex open source projects experience building the technology needed for a consumer product with many users and significant security and localization requirements understanding of the subtleties of both client-side C++ programs (from build engineering to localization) as well as web-service enabled interactions like addon systems, update systems, etc. [1] https://careers.mozilla.org/position/ohUW2fwT ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
