Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On Friday 13 May 2016 11:00:18 Stephen Kelly wrote: ... > What do experienced people look for? > > What makes an experienced person spend their time on FOSS? just my reasons: I spend spare time on a FLOSS projects - to scratch my itch, i.e. because I want it to do something it currently doesn't do to my liking (that was the case for everything I contributed to) - because I'm doing something good for the world :-) - I can quickly get results (e.g. by using a known technology, or contributing is easy, etc.) - the community is not too hostile - I do not contribute in order to improve my CV Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Stephen Kelly wrote: > Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > > On Freitag, 13. Mai 2016 11:06:18 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote: > >> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein wrote: > >> > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > >> >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing > >> >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software > >> >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include > >> >> lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so > >> >> yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for > >> >> free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and > >> >> probably also with other experienced engineers? > >> > > >> > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you > >> > think free software matters. > >> > >> I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working > on > >> some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software > for > >> free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially > >> well-)paid in return elsewhere. > > > > Here is my perspective on this: > > I don't know the actual relative numbers, but many of the commercially > > The topic of money is quite narrow, and money attracts people regardless of > whether they have experience. > It is possible that money attracts GSoC students, too, and people with less experience than the experts as you are writing, but quite frankly: they are less likely to get the paying jobs and projects than the experts with the relevant skill set. I was not expecting to get projects to work productively on for money before gaining experience and expertise in the particular field. It is difficult to find experts at times and they can easily sell their skills if they wish to earn money. So, IMHO money is important for some experts, who are in similar situation than me: insane property prices in the UK. I can think of other reasons, too, like maintaining a big family, etc. You may think that it is "narrow", but if an expert can rightfully sell the skills, while that is not possible in KDE, perhaps the way to attract such experts would be to figure out why this cannot be done in KDE. > I'm looking for broader thoughts on the topic of the thread. If you wish, > re-read my original mail, but with the constraint that we're talking about > 'volunteer/free-time' development. > Yes, I am talking about that, too. I started doing freelancing in my "volunteer/free-time" (i.e. beside the main job) when I feel that I need to get some hacking to be happy. From my experience, I can easily find paying FOSS projects to work on, which was surprising to me the first time, but this seems to be the case. Sometimes, I even have to turn people down when they offer these opportunities. This is not because I am very good, however. I just see that if someone has the right skillset and experience, it is possible to get to this point. I agree with Thomas' sentiment that if KDE can somehow generate more paid jobs, it will significantly boost its future. I do not know how it can get to there, though, so I would not comment on that one. So money is one factor for some. We cannot expect experts to work on KDE for free when there are so many cool FOSS projects out there for them (surely, KDE is not the only cool FOSS project) which are having paying business models. ( If someone knows a cheap property in the UK, of course, let me know about that. ;-) ) Oh, and one more thing: in my experience, I usually work with professionals in paid FOSS projects. This is appealing. Best Regards, Laszlo Papp > > Thanks, > > Steve. > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Freitag, 13. Mai 2016 11:06:18 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote: >> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein wrote: >> > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: >> >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing >> >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software >> >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include >> >> lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so >> >> yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for >> >> free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and >> >> probably also with other experienced engineers? >> > >> > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you >> > think free software matters. >> >> I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on >> some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for >> free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially >> well-)paid in return elsewhere. > > Here is my perspective on this: > I don't know the actual relative numbers, but many of the commercially The topic of money is quite narrow, and money attracts people regardless of whether they have experience. I'm looking for broader thoughts on the topic of the thread. If you wish, re-read my original mail, but with the constraint that we're talking about 'volunteer/free-time' development. Thanks, Steve. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Freitag, 13. Mai 2016 11:06:18 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote: >> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein wrote: >> > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: >> >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing >> >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software >> >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include >> >> lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so >> >> yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for >> >> free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and >> >> probably also with other experienced engineers? >> > >> > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you >> > think free software matters. >> >> I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on >> some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for >> free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially >> well-)paid in return elsewhere. > > Here is my perspective on this: > I don't know the actual relative numbers, but many of the commercially The topic of money is quite narrow, and money attracts people regardless of whether they have experience. I'm looking for broader thoughts on the topic of the thread. If you wish, re-read my original mail, but with the constraint that we're talking about 'volunteer/free-time' development. Thanks, Steve. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
Eike Hein wrote: > - It's really neat to go to sleep at night knowing what I do all day >doesn't screw anybody over. > > - It's even neater to go to sleep at night knowing what I make can't >be easily erased/hidden from existence, and is trivially discoverable >as my calling card. > > - Very few among the total population of software engineers get to >work on the types of products I work on, or with the level of input >I get into fashioning those products. > > - What I make enables others and generally gives them more options. > > - I'm very fond of the people I work with. To keep on the topic of the thread - are you saying that these are the things you focus on that would attract experienced contributors (as opposed to students - your list looks like it applies independently of experience mostly)? I'm more interested in 'what are the things that experienced people look for, which students do not?', and 'do we have those things?' and 'can we make noise about them to attract experienced people?'. Do you have a response to that? Thanks, Steve. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On Freitag, 13. Mai 2016 11:06:18 CEST Laszlo Papp wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein wrote: > > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing > >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software > >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include lots > >> of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so yeah, the > >> question is this really: why would you choose working for free rather > >> doing something similarly interesting for money and probably also with > >> other experienced engineers? > > > > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you > > think free software matters. > > I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on > some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for > free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially > well-)paid in return elsewhere. Here is my perspective on this: I don't know the actual relative numbers, but many of the commercially successful open source software projects that I know of have originally started without any money involved. Of course some Free Software projects have had financial backing from the start, but many start out as a project people do in their free time, and then when they realize they can actually make money with them, they do so and turn into actual for-profit companies which pay people to work on their software. Even those, however, often still additionally have volunteer contributors, who just like the software (which they get for free) so much that they contribute to it for free even when others get paid for doing so (although each individual usually spends far less time on it than those who get paid for doing so). ownCloud is a great example here. What I mean is, we should not divide the world into "Software people make for free" and "Software people make for money". It's not black and white. So, if we want to reach people who would like to eventually make a living working on Free Software (a group to which I clearly belong, and a goal which I have currently reached by being employed by Blue Systems), we should not shy away from trying to look for ways we can make money from the software we produce. Maybe by attracting not only experienced developers, but also people talented in finding ways to make money off Free Software (of course only in ways which are compatible with our Manifesto!) we can make more KDE projects generate paid jobs. Cheers, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On 05/13/2016 07:06 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially well-)paid in return elsewhere. So it's down to making more useful/interesting stuff you can't work on elsewhere, or fostering more employment opportunities around the stuff we make. We've tried both, succeeded sometimes, failed sometimes; we'll likely do more of both. I'm actually not aware of any free software project similar to, say Plasma with more paid developers, BTW ... Speaking personally, I'm an experienced engineer who's worked on KDE stuff both for free and for pay, each for years at a time, and I do it because: - It's really neat to go to sleep at night knowing what I do all day doesn't screw anybody over. - It's even neater to go to sleep at night knowing what I make can't be easily erased/hidden from existence, and is trivially discoverable as my calling card. - Very few among the total population of software engineers get to work on the types of products I work on, or with the level of input I get into fashioning those products. - What I make enables others and generally gives them more options. - I'm very fond of the people I work with. In this industry, it gets a hell of a lot worse almost always, and rarely much better. Cheers, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Eike Hein wrote: > > > On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: > >> I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing >> platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software >> projects have undergone some business path. These generally include lots >> of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so yeah, the >> question is this really: why would you choose working for free rather >> doing something similarly interesting for money and probably also with >> other experienced engineers? >> > > The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you > think free software matters. > I apologise if I had not expressed myself correctly. I do mean working on some free software for money compared to working on KDE free software for free. So, free software does matter, yet you can get (potentially well-)paid in return elsewhere. > The way to increase the number of people who do is to explain and > demonstrate why and that it does. We do that by making stuff and > communicating about it, as well as commenting on the world around > us. > > To keep reflecting on this - the very core of what kde.org and similar > organizations are about - is a Very Good Thing, but of course it's not > a new question or answer. > > So it's more about doing it effectively and efficiently :-) > > > Cheers, > Eike > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
On 05/13/2016 06:50 PM, Laszlo Papp wrote: I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software projects have undergone some business path. These generally include lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and probably also with other experienced engineers? The answer to this has been the same from the very start: Because you think free software matters. The way to increase the number of people who do is to explain and demonstrate why and that it does. We do that by making stuff and communicating about it, as well as commenting on the world around us. To keep reflecting on this - the very core of what kde.org and similar organizations are about - is a Very Good Thing, but of course it's not a new question or answer. So it's more about doing it effectively and efficiently :-) Cheers, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
Dear Steve (and others), I am not an experienced person, but I will try to reply below inline. This topic has got stuck in mind, too, for years. On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Stephen Kelly wrote: > Hello, > > I'm interested in how and whether KDE attempts to attract experienced > engineers, creators like writers and designers, curators like sysadmins and > leaders/community managers etc into the KDE community. > > It seems to me that many/most KDE contributors enter as inexperienced, and > learn the tools and processes as they go, at least in the engineering > section. > > I'm included in that group - when I started to get involved in KDE in > 2007 I had no prior experience with SVN, Qt, CMake, or even C++ to a > large extent, though I had some experience of online communities. That path > led me to gain lots of experience and expertise in git, Qt, CMake and C++, > which has formed the basis for my career. > > These days, KDE has many programs to attract young people, largely > students, > such as GSOC, GCI, SOK and other outreach. That seems to work well and KDE > has great experiences and contributors with those programs. > It is great experience to mentor students, especially talented and bright minds, but some experts, in my experience, would rather prefer working with other recognised experts in order to solve complex problems. > Does KDE make any particular effort to attract experienced contributors? Is > KDE attractive to someone who already has experience in their field? > > Do we know what experienced people need or want? I have the feeling that at > least for programming, experienced people: > > * Have already gained experience working in teams > * Already know C++ and Qt > * Already know the tools they can use to write and debug programs > * Already know how to make use of issue tracking and CI systems > * Can create quality designs and implementations > * Already value git and write good commits > * Already value code reviews with experienced colleagues > * Already value unit tests and write them > * Already have experience in at least one particular > domain (be it coding for graphics/audio/video creation, > communication/PIM, math/computation, admin, etc) > > What do experienced people look for? > I am looking for talented and experienced people whom it is pleasure to work with. I can learn from and look at upon them. > What makes an experienced person spend their time on FOSS? > The other question and in my opinion very important one here is: and for free? One reason that I can think of is if they probably already have got a lot of money or enough for their living standard. So, they are modest with their financial requirements and can work on KDE or other free FOSS projects thereof, rather than running a business or freelancing instead. I do not mean to drag KDE experts away, but it seems that freelancing platforms have become more and more common. Also, many hobby software projects have undergone some business path. These generally include lots of FOSS project opportunities these days in my observation, so yeah, the question is this really: why would you choose working for free rather doing something similarly interesting for money and probably also with other experienced engineers? Best Regards, Laszlo Papp > > Perhaps we can make some claims of answers to these questions and related > ones, and then gather them to try to analyze the truth of them. > > Thanks, > > Steve. > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
[kde-community] Does KDE attempt to attract experienced contributors?
Hello, I'm interested in how and whether KDE attempts to attract experienced engineers, creators like writers and designers, curators like sysadmins and leaders/community managers etc into the KDE community. It seems to me that many/most KDE contributors enter as inexperienced, and learn the tools and processes as they go, at least in the engineering section. I'm included in that group - when I started to get involved in KDE in 2007 I had no prior experience with SVN, Qt, CMake, or even C++ to a large extent, though I had some experience of online communities. That path led me to gain lots of experience and expertise in git, Qt, CMake and C++, which has formed the basis for my career. These days, KDE has many programs to attract young people, largely students, such as GSOC, GCI, SOK and other outreach. That seems to work well and KDE has great experiences and contributors with those programs. Does KDE make any particular effort to attract experienced contributors? Is KDE attractive to someone who already has experience in their field? Do we know what experienced people need or want? I have the feeling that at least for programming, experienced people: * Have already gained experience working in teams * Already know C++ and Qt * Already know the tools they can use to write and debug programs * Already know how to make use of issue tracking and CI systems * Can create quality designs and implementations * Already value git and write good commits * Already value code reviews with experienced colleagues * Already value unit tests and write them * Already have experience in at least one particular domain (be it coding for graphics/audio/video creation, communication/PIM, math/computation, admin, etc) What do experienced people look for? What makes an experienced person spend their time on FOSS? Perhaps we can make some claims of answers to these questions and related ones, and then gather them to try to analyze the truth of them. Thanks, Steve. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
