Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Alexander Neundorf]

On 2016 M10 31, Mon 22:30:45 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Friday 30 September 2016 12:56:13 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> ...
> 
> > On the other hand, a mission that actually concentrates on the things that
> > we need to solve at a higher level (community governance, culture,
> > infrastructure, support, network effects, licensing policies, etc.), a
> > focused mission could be really useful, as it provides us a checklist
> > against we can check planned activities, priorities and budgets.
> > 
> > We had a phone conference earlier this week with those involved this
> > discussion, so the work is still ongoing. It's not a trivial thing to
> > solve, but we are making progress.
> 
> is there progress, or notes or something ?

any news here ?

Alex

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Heiko Tietze]

2016-09-28 1:06 GMT+02:00 Valorie Zimmerman :
> We seemed to be reaching consensus on the updated draft, but at the
> end of the hour some severe doubts were voiced. The product teams have
> some visions, and the doubt seemed to be that those visions and
> mission statements were going to be over-ridden.
>
> So in my opinion, we need to gather those vision and mission
> statements, and see what the common elements are.
>
> The feeling in the room was (I think) between shock on one side, and a
> feeling that "my thoughts have finally been given a voice."

Without any report and no stating the various positions it leaves the
rest of us in the void. The summary sounds to me like we do neither
have a common vision anymore nor a mission. And there are no actual
plans to overcome this unpleasant status. Hopefully I'm wrong ;-)

2016-09-21 21:53 GMT+02:00 Thomas Pfeiffer :
> Therefore, we are now trying to find out whether the general direction that
> the draft is going into makes sense.
> Input on that is of course welcome!

I think this thread shows clearly the interest in this topic. And what
you wrote makes perfect sense to me. We could for instance have a
generic mission like

* create software products which give users control, freedom and privacy

which is specified in the projects as

* KMail let the user control all aspects of communication from privacy
at the transmission to the freedom how the UI is being used

Perhaps it helps to have mandatory as well as supplementary mission
statements. For example, "provide a seamless user experience" may not
be the first interest of every project. But actually I have no idea
what of the mission statements could be a matter of discussion. Okay,
"reach as many users as possible" perhaps (kidding a bit, I understand
the goal of this statement).

Cheers,
Heiko

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Tuesday 27 September 2016 16:06:38 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:06 AM, Alexander Neundorf  
wrote:
> > On Wednesday 21 September 2016 21:53:46 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> >> On 12.09.2016 18:18, Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> > 
> >> > On Thursday 01 September 2016 16:54:32 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  
wrote:
> >> >>> I don't think so. On
> >> >>> https://akademy.kde.org/
> >> >>> there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.
> >> > 
> >> > how did it go ?
> >> > Are there notes or something somewhere ?
> >> 
> >> Hi Alex,
> >> there are no notes of the BoF, but all the tangible results of it are
> >> reflected in the updated Mission draft [1].
> >> However, near the end of the BoF, concerns were brought up regarding
> >> whether a Mission for KDE should say anything about our products, or
> >> whether our products should only be defined by their individual product
> >> visions and a KDE Mission should only encompass how we organize and
> >> collaborate.> 
> > just a short remark: I think trying to give a general direction on what we
> > do is necessary, and according to the results of the surveys this is also
> > wanted. We now already have two "documents" where we do not talk about
> > what we create (the manifesto and the vision), so let's try to put down
> > in a mission what we are trying to create.
> > 
> > Alex
> 
> We seemed to be reaching consensus on the updated draft, but at the
> end of the hour some severe doubts were voiced. The product teams have
> some visions, and the doubt seemed to be that those visions and
> mission statements were going to be over-ridden.
> 
> So in my opinion, we need to gather those vision and mission
> statements, and see what the common elements are.

Sounds like a good plan. :-)
Was there the feeling that those might conflict with each other ?

Alex

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Valorie Zimmerman]

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:06 AM, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 September 2016 21:53:46 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
>> On 12.09.2016 18:18, Alexander Neundorf wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Thursday 01 September 2016 16:54:32 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
>> >>> I don't think so. On
>> >>> https://akademy.kde.org/
>> >>> there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.
>> >>
>> >> Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.
>> >
>> > how did it go ?
>> > Are there notes or something somewhere ?
>>
>> Hi Alex,
>> there are no notes of the BoF, but all the tangible results of it are
>> reflected in the updated Mission draft [1].
>> However, near the end of the BoF, concerns were brought up regarding whether
>> a Mission for KDE should say anything about our products, or whether our
>> products should only be defined by their individual product visions and a
>> KDE Mission should only encompass how we organize and collaborate.
>
> just a short remark: I think trying to give a general direction on what we do
> is necessary, and according to the results of the surveys this is also wanted.
> We now already have two "documents" where we do not talk about what we create
> (the manifesto and the vision), so let's try to put down in a mission what we
> are trying to create.
>
> Alex

We seemed to be reaching consensus on the updated draft, but at the
end of the hour some severe doubts were voiced. The product teams have
some visions, and the doubt seemed to be that those visions and
mission statements were going to be over-ridden.

So in my opinion, we need to gather those vision and mission
statements, and see what the common elements are.

The feeling in the room was (I think) between shock on one side, and a
feeling that "my thoughts have finally been given a voice."

The teams who are actually building our software need to be heard, I
think, before we start again on a more over-arching Mission. I remain
hopeful that we can agree on some basics, while not disregarding
important voices in our community.

Valorie

PS: Links to teams' own vision and mission statements are welcome;
perhaps at the bottom of the Mission draft? [1]

[1] https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission

-- 
http://about.me/valoriez

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Wednesday 21 September 2016 21:53:46 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On 12.09.2016 18:18, Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Thursday 01 September 2016 16:54:32 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
> >>> I don't think so. On
> >>> https://akademy.kde.org/
> >>> there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.
> >> 
> >> Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.
> > 
> > how did it go ?
> > Are there notes or something somewhere ?
> 
> Hi Alex,
> there are no notes of the BoF, but all the tangible results of it are
> reflected in the updated Mission draft [1].
> However, near the end of the BoF, concerns were brought up regarding whether
> a Mission for KDE should say anything about our products, or whether our
> products should only be defined by their individual product visions and a
> KDE Mission should only encompass how we organize and collaborate.

just a short remark: I think trying to give a general direction on what we do 
is necessary, and according to the results of the surveys this is also wanted.
We now already have two "documents" where we do not talk about what we create 
(the manifesto and the vision), so let's try to put down in a mission what we 
are trying to create.

Alex

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 12.09.2016 18:18, Alexander Neundorf wrote:

Hi,

On Thursday 01 September 2016 16:54:32 Lydia Pintscher wrote:

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:

I don't think so. On
https://akademy.kde.org/
there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.

Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.

how did it go ?
Are there notes or something somewhere ?


Hi Alex,
there are no notes of the BoF, but all the tangible results of it are reflected 
in the updated Mission draft [1].
However, near the end of the BoF, concerns were brought up regarding whether a 
Mission for KDE should say anything about our products, or whether our products 
should only be defined by their individual product visions and a KDE Mission 
should only encompass how we organize and collaborate.
Therefore, we are now trying to find out whether the general direction that the 
draft is going into makes sense.

Input on that is of course welcome!
Cheers,
Thomas

[1] https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Alexander Neundorf]

Hi,

On Thursday 01 September 2016 16:54:32 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
> > I don't think so. On
> > https://akademy.kde.org/
> > there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.
> 
> Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.

how did it go ?
Are there notes or something somewhere ?

Alex

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Lydia Pintscher]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
> I don't think so. On
> https://akademy.kde.org/
> there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.


Thomas and I just added one on Tuesday at 4pm.


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
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KDE e.V. Board of Directors / KDE Community Working Group
http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Wednesday 31 August 2016 21:57:10 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Monday 01 August 2016 12:05:25 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > On 01.08.2016 11:20, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > > Thank you for doing this.
> > > 
> > > I am baffled by the extreme coherence between answers of contributors
> > > and
> > > of users. Seems like a perfect match.
> > 
> > Indeed, I was equally surprised by that. It is true, though (I've just
> > re-checked the data to be 100% sure).
> > If someone says "KDE has lost touch with their userbase", we can
> > confidently say "No, we haven't, look at that
> > survey we just did!". At least judging from our attitudes. To the extent
> > that our actions match our attitudes,
> > we should be all lined up with what our users want.
> > Our users should like a Mission Statement derived from these results, then
> > 
> > :)
> 
> so how do we proceed from here ?
> Unfortunately I can't attend Akademy, but I guess there'll be some session
> for working on the mission ?

I don't think so. On
https://akademy.kde.org/
there's no BoF registered for working on the mission.


Regards,
Ingo


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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Alexander Neundorf]

Hi,

On Monday 01 August 2016 12:05:25 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On 01.08.2016 11:20, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Thank you for doing this.
> > 
> > I am baffled by the extreme coherence between answers of contributors and
> > of users. Seems like a perfect match.
> 
> Indeed, I was equally surprised by that. It is true, though (I've just
> re-checked the data to be 100% sure).
> If someone says "KDE has lost touch with their userbase", we can confidently
> say "No, we haven't, look at that
> survey we just did!". At least judging from our attitudes. To the extent
> that our actions match our attitudes,
> we should be all lined up with what our users want.
> Our users should like a Mission Statement derived from these results, then
> :)

so how do we proceed from here ?
Unfortunately I can't attend Akademy, but I guess there'll be some session for 
working on the mission ?

Alex

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 21.08.2016 22:17, Alexander Neundorf wrote:

On Monday 01 August 2016 12:05:25 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:

On 01.08.2016 11:20, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Thank you for doing this.

I am baffled by the extreme coherence between answers of contributors and
of users. Seems like a perfect match.

Indeed, I was equally surprised by that. It is true, though (I've just
re-checked the data to be 100% sure).
If someone says "KDE has lost touch with their userbase", we can confidently
say "No, we haven't, look at that
survey we just did!". At least judging from our attitudes. To the extent
that our actions match our attitudes,
we should be all lined up with what our users want.
Our users should like a Mission Statement derived from these results, then
:)


just arrived back home. :-)
That's actually a very similar issue to what I have at work: while following
wishes from existing users certainly makes those happier, but is this actually
the right way if you want to reach people who are not yet using this software
? (serious question, not rhetoric)

Alex


Doing what current users want just because they want it is a way which is 
unlikely
to lead to long-term success. However, the community came to similar preferences
as the users without knowing what preferences the users have.

If I were to decide, I'd have set different preferences, but setting a Mission 
which
the community does not agree with is not useful in a volunteer-driven community.
If all most contributors want to focus on desktop Linux, I can say that KDE 
should
focus on mobile all day, without any effect.

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 01.08.2016 11:20, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Thank you for doing this.

I am baffled by the extreme coherence between answers of contributors and of
users. Seems like a perfect match.
Indeed, I was equally surprised by that. It is true, though (I've just 
re-checked the data to be 100% sure).
If someone says "KDE has lost touch with their userbase", we can confidently say 
"No, we haven't, look at that
survey we just did!". At least judging from our attitudes. To the extent that 
our actions match our attitudes,

we should be all lined up with what our users want.
Our users should like a Mission Statement derived from these results, then :)

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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Martin Steigerwald]

Am Freitag, 29. Juli 2016, 01:04:58 CEST schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer:
> Hi everyone,

Hi Thomas.

> I'm sorry for taking so long with the survey analysis (analysis and
> documentation of survey results always end up taking longer than expected),
> but now finally I've prepared a presentation of the results of the first
> round of analysis of the survey I did for input on KDE's Mission statement.
> This is just plain results, no interpretation.
> I said "first round" because I'm ready to do perform further analyses if
> these results leave important questions open (if they can be answered from
> the data, of course).
> If you'd like me to dig deeper somewhere, feel free to tell me!
> 
> If anybody would like to get the raw data to do their own analyses, that's
> of course possible as well.
> 
> With this, I leave you to the graphs and numbers, hoping that the results
> will help us make confident decisions about our Mission statement (I think
> they do).

Thank you for doing this.

I am baffled by the extreme coherence between answers of contributors and of 
users. Seems like a perfect match.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin
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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Lydia Pintscher]

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:04 AM, Thomas Pfeiffer
 wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I'm sorry for taking so long with the survey analysis (analysis and
> documentation of survey results always end up taking longer than expected),
> but now finally I've prepared a presentation of the results of the first
> round of analysis of the survey I did for input on KDE's Mission statement.
> This is just plain results, no interpretation.
> I said "first round" because I'm ready to do perform further analyses if
> these results leave important questions open (if they can be answered from
> the data, of course).
> If you'd like me to dig deeper somewhere, feel free to tell me!
>
> If anybody would like to get the raw data to do their own analyses, that's
> of course possible as well.
>
> With this, I leave you to the graphs and numbers, hoping that the results
> will help us make confident decisions about our Mission statement (I think
> they do).

Thank so much, Thomas!


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
KDE e.V. Board of Directors / KDE Community Working Group
http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org
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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 29.07.2016 23:27, Alexander Neundorf wrote:

Yes, probably.

How to interpret other results ?

E.g. "Importance of goals".
Do we consider the difference between 4.5 ("read as many users as possible"
and "convince users to switch away from proprietary") and 5.5 ("do our part to
promote Free...") as significant ?
If so, how does that fit together ? Could it be interpreted as that users of
proprietary OS are not that important to us (3rd option), and we also don't
want to make them switch to free OSs (5th option), while it is important for
us to promote free software (4th option) ?


That is indeed where we have to decide what to make of the results. I would not
recommend to exclude anything from the Mission which scored significantly above
the scale midpoint (which is why I did those tests). We may give those things 
which
scored significantly higher than others greater weight in the wording, but if 
something

is considered as more than averagely important by the community, why should
it not be part of the Mission? Nobody said that only the most important things 
can
be part of a Mission statement.

The aim of this survey was not to identify only the most important goals. The 
aim
was to confirm if the community agrees with us that the goals we identified are
indeed important, and it did so at least for all of the main goals.

About the "make users switch" vs. "promote free software": There are other ways 
to
promote Free Software (like we do with mentoring and advocacy) than directly
convincing users to switch away from proprietary software.

Actually I'm a bit surprised that "reach as many users as possible, regardless
of which OS" got such a relatively low score, because to me this question
translates to "do we want to provide (our part of) freedom to as many people
as possible (even if they still use a proprietary OS kernel underneath) ?"
So it seems we don't want to.


We _do_ want to. If we didn't, it would have scored below the midpoint of the 
scale
on average. What I'd read from these results, though, is that providing 
excellent
software on Free OSes is _more important_ to the community than getting on
as many platforms as possible, which should be reflected in the Mission 
statement.

One thing stands out quite clear: "provide stable and reliable software" got
the highest points.

Yes, it seems that KDE is aware that higher quality standards should be a clear
focus for the future, which makes sense and is something that would certainly
sit well with the public, too.

I'm a bit surprised that "aim for a presence on mobile devices" got a
relatively low score. But that seems to match the (compared to GNU/Linux) low
score for Android.


I'm not _that_ much surprised. Again: The score does not mean that the community
does not want presence on Android, but if it had the same priority to 
contributors as

desktop Linux, we would already be seeing _far_ more Android apps from KDE.

Presence on Android is clearly seen as an above-average priority, so it should
definitely be part of the Mission, but it's also clear that the community still 
sees

desktop (Linux) computers as more important.

The even lower score for "embedded" confirms the impression I have in this
regard from our community.


Yes. This is why I did this survey: I (and certainly some others) do think that 
embedded
is an important area for the future, but it makes little sense to put it in the 
Mission

of the majority of the community does not really care about it a lot.
The Mission is not fixed for eternity, so should that priority ever change for 
the
community, the Mission will reflect that change.

The relatively low result for "use new online services created by KDE" and the
relatively low result for "offer our own web-based services" seem to fit
together.


Indeed. Web services were considered "moderately important" on average by
the participants of the survey, so that certainly does not mean that web 
services are

not welcome in KDE, but they are not considered important enough to shift
resources to them from client software.

I find it noteworthy that we (developers, and even more users) consider the
BSDs and even "Other Free OS" as more important target platforms than Windows.


Indeed. It seems like KDE cares more about a completely Free stack than about
reaching as many users as possible, as already seen in the first question.

The "How much do you agree.." page is a bit complicated.
I guess it means that we want to try to concentrate on "important"
applications (so we cover the common needs of normal users), and that we
should keep the focus on Qt.


Yes, those two seem to be rather clear-cut.

The "focus on GUI" vs. "any useful software"... does that have to be
considered also taking into account the relatively low score for web-based
services ?


Yes, that point is indeed interesting. It does indeed look like having a GUI is 
less important

to us than running on user's systems instead of the cloud.

Alex, going on 

Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

For those who follow these lists only through archives or digests and therefore 
did not get the attachment, here's the link to the PDF:

https://share.kde.org/index.php/s/JAefwOmCRSB6qp9
and the original ODP:
https://share.kde.org/index.php/s/O3KZRDECua8h9wF
Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 29.07.2016 08:57, Mirko Boehm - KDE wrote:

Hello Thomas,


On 29 Jul 2016, at 01:04, Thomas Pfeiffer  wrote:

I'm sorry for taking so long with the survey analysis (analysis and 
documentation of survey results always end up taking longer than expected), but 
now finally I've prepared a presentation of the results of the first round of 
analysis of the survey I did for input on KDE's Mission statement.
This is just plain results, no interpretation.
I said "first round" because I'm ready to do perform further analyses if these 
results leave important questions open (if they can be answered from the data, of course).
If you'd like me to dig deeper somewhere, feel free to tell me!

Excellent work, thanks. And there are some interesting insights already. 
Besides minor differences, contributor and user interests are pretty much 
aligned, for example. Or that we are good at retaining long-term contributors.
Yes, I found the alignment between user and contributor attitudes pretty 
striking as well. Pretty much the only area where there are bigger differences 
are priorities for target platfroms, but that might be a bit of a chicken and 
egg problem: Since we're currently mostly targeting Free OSes, our userbase uses 
mostly Free OSes, so that's what they care about.

If anybody would like to get the raw data to do their own analyses, that's of 
course possible as well.

I would definitely be interested in the raw numbers. How can I access them?

Sure, you can find the ODS file here: 
https://share.kde.org/index.php/s/rmC88ki4ZmSdxei
And here is the R workspace and scripts I used for preparing the datasets and 
doing the inferential statistics (though I'm not sure how much others could make 
of it, it's not exactly well documented to be honest): 
https://share.kde.org/index.php/s/V8nX1jxeucr7YG8


Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Mirko Boehm - KDE]

Hello Thomas, 

> On 29 Jul 2016, at 01:04, Thomas Pfeiffer  wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry for taking so long with the survey analysis (analysis and 
> documentation of survey results always end up taking longer than expected), 
> but now finally I've prepared a presentation of the results of the first 
> round of analysis of the survey I did for input on KDE's Mission statement.
> This is just plain results, no interpretation.
> I said "first round" because I'm ready to do perform further analyses if 
> these results leave important questions open (if they can be answered from 
> the data, of course).
> If you'd like me to dig deeper somewhere, feel free to tell me!

Excellent work, thanks. And there are some interesting insights already. 
Besides minor differences, contributor and user interests are pretty much 
aligned, for example. Or that we are good at retaining long-term contributors.

> If anybody would like to get the raw data to do their own analyses, that's of 
> course possible as well.

I would definitely be interested in the raw numbers. How can I access them?

> With this, I leave you to the graphs and numbers, hoping that the results 
> will help us make confident decisions about our Mission statement (I think 
> they do).

Thanks, all the best, 

Mirko.
-- 
Mirko Boehm | mi...@kde.org | KDE e.V.
FSFE Fellow, FSFE Team Germany
Qt Certified Specialist
Request a meeting: https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm



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Re: [kde-community] Results from the Mission Survey

[Olivier Churlaud]

Le 29/07/2016 à 01:04, Thomas Pfeiffer a écrit :

Hi everyone,
I'm sorry for taking so long with the survey analysis (analysis and 
documentation of survey results always end up taking longer than 
expected), but now finally I've prepared a presentation of the results 
of the first round of analysis of the survey I did for input on KDE's 
Mission statement.

This is just plain results, no interpretation.
I said "first round" because I'm ready to do perform further analyses 
if these results leave important questions open (if they can be 
answered from the data, of course).

If you'd like me to dig deeper somewhere, feel free to tell me!

If anybody would like to get the raw data to do their own analyses, 
that's of course possible as well.


With this, I leave you to the graphs and numbers, hoping that the 
results will help us make confident decisions about our Mission 
statement (I think they do).


Cheers,
Thomas

Hi,

Very interesting, overall, and specially to see the slight difference of 
interest between contributors and users.


Very well done! However I have no idea how we are going to use this in 
the mission definition, so I'm looking forward for the discussion.


Thx again for this hard work.

Cheers

Olivier

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