Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Sunday, January 19, 2014 23:42:58 Martin Sandsmark wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:55:13AM +0100, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: this is not really related at all, and i hesitate to engage in the topic here due to loss of topical focus. It was merely to illustrate a point, that switching to QML is not a simple process, I don’t believe anyone intimated it was; the work done to get Plasma there has been more than a master class in that. and it seemingly takes us over a year (at the very least, since we still aren't close) to reach feature parity with the old solution. Yes, it takes time and effort. The QWidget UI has a ~20 year legacy behind it, while the QML legacy is quite recent, so this is to be expected. Therefore I think it's useless to move existing, nicely working applications (like kcalc) to it for seemingly no good reason at all. I agree that if there is no good reason, then there is no point. Good reasons were offered in the original mail, however, namely duplication of effort and inconsistency due to multiple implementations of what is from a use case perspective the same thing. have you worked with the Qt5 QML2 desktop components? Yes, I've been playing with the desktop components in Qt 5.2. Hopefully they will get a lot better before we release anything using them, though, because things like the file/folder selector is basically unusable in the current state, at least on the systems I've tested it on. For things like kcalc, the things the desktop components are not good at are irrelevant; the things it *is* good at could radically improve its UI. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Monday, January 20, 2014 18:29:16 Martin Sandsmark wrote: On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:10:06AM +0100, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: namely duplication of effort and inconsistency due to multiple implementations of what is from a use case perspective the same thing. This would be all well and good if it wasn't for the gross regressions it would suffer. Yes, you don’t have to believe me. You argued the exact same thing for the screen locker. Er, no, actually. That was a completely different decision matrix that bears zero resemblance to this one. The screen locker was about consistency with other desktop shell components, the application issue is about deduplication of effort. But what you're arguing is a kind of false dichtomy. You would think that instead of two half-assed solutions we would get a single superior implementation, but instead we get a single inferior one. I disagree; ultimately the code will decide who was right, though with stop energy like this I can imagine the experiment never being undertaken at all. For things like kcalc, the things the desktop components are not good at are irrelevant; the things it *is* good at could radically improve its UI. The thing I'm unable to discern is how it would radically improve its UI. For one: by having a nice paper-tape presentation of the calculation with history. Rather easier to do in a visually pleasant way with QML. The current kcalc UI is very good, I often use it for stuff like bit fiddling, etc. I can't say the same thing for the calculator plasma applet. But please feel free to prove me wrong and make the plasma calculator much better than kcalc. I would expect a QML UI on top of the kcalc logic would be a far more sensible approach. Not sure why you would think we’d go at it from the other direction. But I'd argue very strongly to not replace kcalc until the replacement is visibly better. Agreed, or at the very least has parity. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 06:42:14PM +0100, Martin Klapetek wrote: Just for the record, we now have almost 1-to-1 visual consistency of QtQuickControls with Oxygen style and classic QWidgets with Oxygen style. Couple patches are still pending. I think the amount of work that has gone into Oxygen for this speaks for itself, though. The QStyle support in QQC may be a bit hack~ish, but I wouldn't say exactly poor - in fact, all the default Qt styles work fine with QQC (that includes Windows and OS X QStyles). Obviously, otherwise QQC could hardly have been released. :-) But not everyone use the default styles that ship with Qt5. Hopefully this will improve, though I'm not very hopeful since people just hack around stuff in the styles themselves. -- Martin Sandsmark ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
I first wrote a long reply talking crap about UX and regressions, but I re-read it and thought about kittens instead, so I deleted it. On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 07:05:24PM +0100, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Agreed, or at the very least has parity. This is all I really want. Don't remove kcalc until the replacement has parity. And thank you for working on this. :-) -- Martin Sandsmark ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Friday, 2014-01-17, 19:48:14, Marco Martin wrote: On Friday 17 January 2014, Sebastian Kügler wrote: That's pretty much what plasma-windowed does (modulo some setup of KDeclarative, etc.). Disadvantage of a binary-per-app would be that it requires compiling, with a generic app shell loader thing (like plasma- windowed), you can write whole apps without compiling anything, so making it really easy to write, and deploy, no setup of development environment, etc. In order to make it easy to start them from the commandline, a one-liner script installed into the PATH would be enough. (Done that before, works like a charm.) btw, this is something worth exploring not only for having plasmoids as apps, but also from qt iirc they are thinking about an alternative to qmlscene (the command line tool) that they would advertise as shell for running simple full applications, so some 3rd party app that uses the thing may come up I think this tool is simply called qml. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 22:54:43 Albert Astals Cid wrote: So basically there's no difference between a plasmoid and a non-plasmoid? There are differences; I would never do Krita as a plasmoid, e.g. Or, for that matter, Okular. The Plasmoid design pattern lends itself to self-contained, highly focused, single-use-case UIs. That is purposeful; the “full desktop application” paradigm is not visible in kcalc, and full desktop apps are not well suited to be implemented as plasmoids. It’s a question of granularity across a spectrum that runs from desktop shell gadgets to full desktop applications. There is a gray area in the middle of that spectrum: things like KCalc make sense both as desktop shell gadgets but also as stand-alone applications. What the application FormFactor and the single-plasmoid shells like plasma- windowed provide is a way to address that middle zone. Apps the “full desktop app” end of the spectrum may *use* plasmoids (or a similar pattern) themselves. We see this in Skrooge and Amarok, for instance. If that's the case, I don't understand why John started the discussion if we should favor plasmoids over non-plasmoids or viceversa since it seems to me plasmoid or not is an implementation detail. I think it’s a matter of consciously deciding which implementation direction to take different apps, and that implies we know why we pick one or the other. Beyond that, it is an implementation detail, yes. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Friday 17 January 2014, Sebastian Kügler wrote: That's pretty much what plasma-windowed does (modulo some setup of KDeclarative, etc.). Disadvantage of a binary-per-app would be that it requires compiling, with a generic app shell loader thing (like plasma- windowed), you can write whole apps without compiling anything, so making it really easy to write, and deploy, no setup of development environment, etc. In order to make it easy to start them from the commandline, a one-liner script installed into the PATH would be enough. (Done that before, works like a charm.) btw, this is something worth exploring not only for having plasmoids as apps, but also from qt iirc they are thinking about an alternative to qmlscene (the command line tool) that they would advertise as shell for running simple full applications, so some 3rd party app that uses the thing may come up -- Marco Martin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 22:05:08 Albert Astals Cid wrote: * Sorry for being rude ... * Sorry if being being rude and wrong made you feel insulted. It was not my intention at all. thanks for writing this, it is meaningful. i would echo what marco said about sorry for being wrong, though ... -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? Especially with KCalc I'd be very very very conservative of removing it in favour of some (potentially less capable) plasmoid. I know for a fact that KCalc is widely used, and there was a discussion about it some in 2007: http://www.mail-archive.com/release-team@kde.org/msg01065.html The bottom line is: KCalc is needed, most probably in the current form. Greetings, Dominik ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. We’ve had plasma-windows for ages now which runs plasmoids in their own independent window like a mini application. For apps like ksnapshot and kcalc the results would be identical or nearly so (kcalc would require support for putting a menu[bar] somewhere, or reorganizing how those particular features are presented). (I won’t even get into the dashboard or panels ...) We also have an “application” form factor for plasmoids for ~1 year now which allows these components to make useful adjustments between being embedded as a plasmoid component and being run as a top-level window. I don’t think it makes huge amounts of sense to turn ksnapshot into a plasmoid, but KCalc probably would as it would give us feature parity between the version on the desktop (and panels). Right now we have 2 calculators with differing features and levels of maintenance. Should we force kcalc to port to QML and become a plasmoid? No, because it is up to the maintainer .. but I think we ought to think about these things in non-reactive, accurate technical terms where the goal is ‘what is the best end result for the user’. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 10:43:42 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Aaron, please assume good intentions. We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to. I do not see any of your conclusions in his writing. Let's stay positive in this discussion. If we start to fight with each other we won't find a solution. Technically I agree with Albert's concern that Plasmoids as app replacements might not be a good idea. And I read the part in John's mail as rather an example than an actual suggestion. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
Hey, On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:43:42 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. There are very good reasons to respect the CoC much better, especially when it comes to discussions around Plasma, we *need* to do better here. This discussion will not lead anywhere if we start out with negative assumption about anyone's intentions. As to the topic, I think both have their use-cases, and their not mutually exclusive either. It seems to me like it's easy enough to find a distribution model that satisfies both, the tools as separate windows faction, and the tools as part of the workspace faction. Cheers, -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:35:29 Sebastian Kügler wrote: I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. Fine; so when someone says “I need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it” and that is blatantly false, how would you like me to respond? That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. It seems that CoC applies to me, while it’s cool for Albert to say things like “don’t force plasmoids down my throat”. Yay for double standards and not having any sort of expectation of fair play. -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: We’ve had plasma-windows for ages now which runs plasmoids in their own independent window like a mini application. For apps like ksnapshot and kcalc the results would be identical or nearly so (kcalc would require support for putting a menu[bar] somewhere, or reorganizing how those particular features are presented). I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. We also have an “application” form factor for plasmoids for ~1 year now which allows these components to make useful adjustments between being embedded as a plasmoid component and being run as a top-level window. Wow, nice! I don't think I've ever heard about this before and I am even monitoring plasma-devel. I don’t think it makes huge amounts of sense to turn ksnapshot into a plasmoid, but KCalc probably would as it would give us feature parity between the version on the desktop (and panels). Right now we have 2 calculators with differing features and levels of maintenance. I think these kind of convergences will become more natural once we can do traditional UI with QML (either through QtQuick.Controls or DeclarativeWidgets). Using the same application logic both for stand-alone application as well as Plasma applet becomes trivial then. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:47:13 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:35:29 Sebastian Kügler wrote: I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. Fine; so when someone says “I need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it” and that is blatantly false, how would you like me to respond? I think your further explanation was just fine, but the bit about insults and ignorance was unnecessary to explain that point. To me don't force plasmoids down my throat doesn't read insulting towards Plasma creators, John offered the idea (and I didn't get the impression that John felt particularly insulted by it -- correct me if I'm wrong though). It was a reply to John's crazy ideas. (Where crazy clearly means good.) The bottom line is that it would have been easy to *not* take this personal. That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. Just to point out the obvious, while it might be human to lose patience, it's not OK, and certainly not helpful. It seems that CoC applies to me, while it’s cool for Albert to say things like “don’t force plasmoids down my throat”. Yay for double standards and not having any sort of expectation of fair play. That's not my impression at all. The CoC applies to everyone, and even if someone doesn't keep to it, that's not a justification for someone else to ignore it. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Martin Graesslin wrote: 'We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to.’ IOW: it’s OK for Albert, because we all know he’s gruff and we should accommodate that. Others are routinely granted clemency for one reason or another, but should I not respond in perfect pitch to every email I get a different response. Aaron, in my first reply to your sub-thread I asked you to assume good intentions. My mail was obviously also intended to be a note to Albert that his comment was way too harsh and out of line. There was no reason to turn this so negative. I'm disappointed and it hurts to read that friends are accusing me of having double standards. -- Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday 16 January 2014 14:48:22 Martin Graesslin wrote: On Thursday 16 January 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: Martin Graesslin wrote: 'We all know Albert and we all know that his writing reads more harsh than he intents to.’ IOW: it’s OK for Albert, because we all know he’s gruff and we should accommodate that. Others are routinely granted clemency for one reason or another, but should I not respond in perfect pitch to every email I get a different response. Aaron, in my first reply to your sub-thread I asked you to assume good intentions. My mail was obviously also intended to be a note to Albert that his comment was way too harsh and out of line. There was no reason to turn this so negative. I'm disappointed and it hurts to read that friends are accusing me of having double standards. Threading is done in such a way that I pretty much read it like Aaron to be honest. So your intent was maybe... not that obvious. ;-) Aren't mailing lists great? Not really no... Cheers. -- Kévin Ottens, http://ervin.ipsquad.net KDAB - proud supporter of KDE, http://www.kdab.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
My 2 cents on this: I agree that Albert's original phrasing here wasn't great, and I wouldn't have ignored it myself. Assuming good intentions has to go both ways, and reacting to a *question* (like Should we do these as Plasmoids?) with You're going to kill my baby seals, I know it! is exactly the sort of cutting-short of discourse (which is always an opportunity to *agree* on things in the end by syncing up our thoughts, know- ledge, experience, ...) we don't want in development discussions. Regards, Eike ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, January 16, 2014 16:09:03 Sebastian Kügler wrote: Hi Aaron, On Thursday, January 16, 2014 13:24:51 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play. Just to point out the obvious, while it might be human to lose patience, it's not OK, and certainly not helpful. After literally years of this, it is not a matter of “keeping one’s patience”. I have kept my patience and tried to work through these issues over the course of some 6 years now. I think that is reasonable beyond reasonable, and I resent you asking the person who says “This has made me feel uncomfortable” to sit on it. It’s rather close to the ”blame the victim” pattern. Had you said exactly that (This has made me feel uncomfortable”), it would have been completely fine. Instead you implied ignorance and ill-intent. This makes all the difference. Let me quote to you from my own email then: As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable.” As you can see, I did indeed say exactly “that makes me feel very uncomfortable” Furthermore, I was not under the impression there was any ill-intent. That is something you read into what I wrote, for whatever reason. I’ve tried to make it clear that I do not see ill-intent, but a double standard in action and an institutionalized acceptance of negative personal response depending on the source and recipient. I accept that you read into what I wrote something I did not intend, but now could you return that favor and accept that this I do not actually see ill-intent here? As for implying ignorance: I did not imply it, I stated it openly. I will freely admit that using that precise word probably is born of frustration with a six year background story: after patiently correcting the same rubbish within your own community to no effect, I don’t know how else to help people understand that the meme in question is not an opinion, but a factual error. The dictionary definition of ignorance is this: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignorance If I had said Albert was stupid (which he is not), that would have been something rather different: a statement (insult, even) about the person himself. Ignorance is an observation of state, at least when offered non- pejoratively. Let me offer an example: I am ignorant about Poppler (to take an example); by contrast, Albert knows quite a bit about Poppler. I would hope that in a conversation where Poppler comes up that I would not make sweeping statements without fact checking them. Doing so would be speaking out of ignorance. If you wish to discuss the rest of you email, we can do so face to face (virtually, e.g. on G+ hangouts) -- Aaron J. Seigo ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. That is not a real threat, and phrasing it like it is a real threat feels extremely disrespectful. As the person who came up with and used to maintain this part of KDE, It makes me feel like you think I’ve been wandering around forcing people to do things they don’t want to and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Why would i want a calculator as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance. Already said in private, but feel the public will benefit from it too: * Sorry for being rude * Sorry for being wrong * Sorry if being being rude and wrong made you feel insulted. It was not my intention at all. Cheers, Albert ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? Also in my mind something that i can start from the command line and creates it's own top-level window is not a plasmoid. But from reading your emails seems it is for you. Can you share with us your definition of plasmoid so we are all on the same terminology? Cheers, Albert ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 22:07:17, Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? plasma-windowed can be run from the commandline, e.g. plasma-windowed org.kde.networkmanagement A hypothetical KCalc Plasma applet could also install a .desktop file that has the appropriate Exec line. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Wednesday 15 January 2014 22:56:12 Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure: Hi, * Do we need small utilities like KCalc as stand-alone apps, or do they belong in Workspaces, perhaps as Plasmoids? Where do we draw the line between them? And if there's both a Plasmoid and an App for something, which goes in the main release? Please don't force plasmoids down my throat. Why would i want a calculator I did read this thread only now, and this sentence saddened me quite a lot. seriously, I can it only as in your work is not welcome here. And yes, I know perfectly it was *not* intended like that, but still, I find this sentence very, very painful to read. Please, pay attention to things like that :/ as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing? as was noted elsewhere there is the dashboard, plasma-windowed, and where and how they appear is really just an implementation detail. now i didn't push plasma-windowed that much on plasma-desktop (in plasma active the rss reader and the app to configure alarms are just plasmoids) since on plasma1 was not possible to make them looking well integrated in the desktop, theme and behavior wise. Cheers, Marco Martin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 22:13:58, Kevin Krammer va escriure: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 22:07:17, Albert Astals Cid wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? plasma-windowed can be run from the commandline, e.g. plasma-windowed org.kde.networkmanagement That's a bit too long vs kcalc, but i guess you could always install a shell script file in /usr/bin/kcalc that just runs plasma-windowed org.kde.calculator inside. So basically there's no difference between a plasmoid and a non-plasmoid? If that's the case, I don't understand why John started the discussion if we should favor plasmoids over non-plasmoids or viceversa since it seems to me plasmoid or not is an implementation detail. John? Cheers, Albert A hypothetical KCalc Plasma applet could also install a .desktop file that has the appropriate Exec line. Cheers, Kevin ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:07 PM, Albert Astals Cid aa...@kde.org wrote: El Dijous, 16 de gener de 2014, a les 12:05:17, Aaron J. Seigo va escriure: On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:46:33 Kevin Krammer wrote: On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 10:43:42, Aaron J. Seigo wrote: I also thought about plasma-windowed when reading that :) However, I think it is one of those hidden gems that nobody knows about. I've had questions like can I run $applet stand-alone on the user support lists a couple of times and plasma-windowed was the answer. Its drawback currently is that it is not very easy to figure out what to pass as its commandline argument. KRunner will do this for you, actually. If you type “calc”, and the plasmoid runner is installed, you’ll get a match offering to run the plasmoid in a window. Well, it doesn’t actually *say* that, since that’s jargon, but that’s what the match does. For plasmoids suited to being run as an app they should also install a .desktop file with this command in it so that it is completely transparent to the user. All of the above occurs in Plasma Active, so we know it works well from a technical POV. Can you start it from the command line? like plasma-windowed calculator (have still to port it to a plasma2 version) Also in my mind something that i can start from the command line and creates it's own top-level window is not a plasmoid. But from reading your emails seems it is for you. Can you share with us your definition of plasmoid so we are all on the same terminology? yep, that probably was the misunderstanding indeed ;) basically, to me to be a plasmoid is the technical implementation in brief, something that implements a plasma applet, that therefore can be loaded as a desktop widget (butcan be loaded also with other appearances as a top level window) in plasma1/c++ case, a plugin that reimplements Applet (for historical record :p), in the qml/plasma2 case, is a directory containing qml files (and other stuff like images ) in a particular location with a particular hyerarchy (that can be understood by the Package class) and loaded by a plasma shell. about doing applications with it or not, i guess is developer's choice, depending how much integration they want, how many dependencies want to accept, if it's a small gadget like one or a very big one and so on. so in the end i see nothing bad to hae some apps implemented as plasmoids, if a developers wants to ship it like that, they don't exclude each other and probably the overlap of use cases exists but is only partial. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
