Re: Genderidentity
It is definitely necessary to solve the problems mentioned (Johnny Jazeix’s original coding problem with the numbers and Sandro’s problem with the gendered word), and also look into other sociological issues that might have crept into other parts of GCompris. For some aspects, see https://mescommunity.info/ (am in their International Committee :) Thanks and Best A Mani Dr (Miss) A Mani Senior Member, International Rough Set Society Woman Scientist, Indian Statistical Institute, Kolkata ASL, AMS, ISRS, CLC, CMS, MTA Formerly HBCSE, TIFR, CU. Homepage: https://www.logicamani.in Blog: https://logicamani.blogspot.in/ Research Gate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mani-A sip:girlprofes...@ekiga.net Pronouns: She/Her/Hers
Re: Genderidentity
Le ven. 7 janv. 2022 à 23:11, Ian Wadham a écrit : > The original sentence: > "Place %n boy(s) and %n girl(s) in the center. Then split %n pieces of > candy equally between them.” > > could maybe be changed to: > “Place some children in the center, %n from the left and %n from the right. > Then split %n pieces of candy equally between them.” > > Perhaps that would solve two problems, Johnny Jazeix’s original coding > problem with the numbers and Sandro’s problem with the gendered words. > > FWIW, 75 years ago I disliked being called a child or worse still a kid. > Schools > I attended were single-sex and class-distinction was rife. So was bullying. > > Today’s schools have come a long way! > > Cheers, Ian W. > > Hi, this idea will cause issues on the ergonomy side. Where it would work fine on computers, it will not work on phones where space is limited. For now, on these devcies, we display the bar containing the children to drag on top instead of left to have enough space on the center for the drops. We can't add on in the bottom, it would not be practical. Cheers, Johnny
Re: Genderidentity
The original sentence: "Place %n boy(s) and %n girl(s) in the center. Then split %n pieces of candy equally between them.” could maybe be changed to: “Place some children in the center, %n from the left and %n from the right. Then split %n pieces of candy equally between them.” Perhaps that would solve two problems, Johnny Jazeix’s original coding problem with the numbers and Sandro’s problem with the gendered words. FWIW, 75 years ago I disliked being called a child or worse still a kid. Schools I attended were single-sex and class-distinction was rife. So was bullying. Today’s schools have come a long way! Cheers, Ian W. > On 7 Jan 2022, at 6:07 am, Rik Mills wrote: > > On 06/01/2022 17:56, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: >> There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender >> and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right >> place. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children > > +1 >
Re: Genderidentity
On 06/01/2022 17:56, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: > There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender > and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right > place. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children +1
Re: Genderidentity
On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:36 AM Johnny Jazeix wrote: > ps : please, don't assume by this answer that I am for or against the third > gender and not telling explicitely what is my opinion about it makes me by > default against it. I think it is just not the place in GCompris. I'm not sure why you bother writing so much text for strawman arguments then. Maybe I'm being daft but this looks like a no-brainer issue. What we have right now, right here, is a person that rightly points out that there are people, that includes children, that do not identify as boy or girl and we alienate them and make them feel "other" by using these stand-ins. We can literally change the counting example to anything else - and if someone complains in the future about us using a werewolf as depiction for a dog then we change it again. That being said I think having cute dogs and cute kitties is a splendid idea, maybe not go with werewolfs ;) HS
Re: Genderidentity
El dijous, 6 de gener de 2022, a les 23:29:15 (CET), Sven Brauch va escriure: > Hi, > > On 1/6/22 18:56, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: > > There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender > > and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right > > place. > > Additionally, there is also a time and place to discuss gender identity > topics, but the kde-devel mailing list thread about GCompris' usage of > the KDE i18n API is not that time and place. I disagree, let's try not to shut down our fellow community members trying to make our software better in the name of "this was not what we were speaking of". Sure, it was not, but the original concern is solved, if there's other things that can be improved, why not do it? Cheers, Albert > > Best, > Sven >
Re: Genderidentity
Hi, As you said, this is off-topic regarding the initial issue (the problem will still be present even if the proposed changes here are applied). I was really reluctant to reply because it's a delicate subject, more philosophical/political/social than related to GCompris and I don't really want to take too much of my time on these kind of discussion. I'm not saying it is not an important or valid concern, I'm saying that I would prefer to use my time on other subjects. But, in the actual world, not replying would probably be seen by some as I'm against it or I don't care (and by an extrapolation, I would be against it) because I initiated the thread (or even worse it could be said it's the position of GCompris community). Also, this answer is a personal answer, anybody in the GCompris community may or may not share it, it's not relevant here. I just kept the kde-devel mailing list in the loop because this thread originated here, let's not "spam" the other lists please. The code is open, feel free to make a MR or open a bug/feature request/discussion with the team to propose your ideas for the activity. Just discussing here won't move things. Please note that it is not just about changing this specific string. the whole activity would be impacted: a lot of other strings/variables related, images, translation, voices... " And than I read about this thread, that a program that is made for kids is teaching them the binary gender system and are telling me that is a good thing from a pedagogical point of view: Sorry NO! This is discriminating and making it less likely that we will overcome with the discrimination. " It was never said by anyone that "binary gender system is teached by this activity and it is good from a pedagogical point of view". It was said that having 2 distinct sets was good for the pedagogical point of view. Le jeu. 6 janv. 2022 à 20:01, Sandro Knauß a écrit : > Hey, > > > There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender > > and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right > > place. > > Fully ACK - I don't want to teach kids the complexity of gender. This > exercise > is about arithmetic/counting and should concentrate on that. > > Then, when you use this activity with children, can you skip this part for now and let the children focus on what the activity is about? And discuss with them the complexity of gender later, when you feel it will be more adequate for them? The activity itself is just a tool designed to help teaching some math and it is used by a person behind. It is up to the person to decide on how to use the tool and what to focus on. Talking about the gender of the children was never though or expected from the developers. But I also don't need to teach them to seperate people by gender indirectly! > > Why not use cats and dogs or plants and animals as distinct sets? Than we > are > not hurting anyone. > > I'm sure whatever is used, there will be someone who can be hurt and can complain (rightfully or not). We are close to 8 billions of people in the world and there is not one subject that we can all agree on. Why cats and dogs and not rabbits and horses? Maybe this is not an important cause to you because they are "generic" animals but for someone else it could be (or some children using the software may have ailurophobia or cynophobia). Note the activity for now is to share pieces of candy (let's not open a new thread about the danger of sugar please). If we put animals instead of people, indirectly children using the software could think it is a good idea to give candies to their animals (which is not). Only colors should be avoided because some children have poor or deficient color vision. Clothes: which kind? Some people may get offended because the size of the T-shirt is "standard", not small or extra. These examples can be seen as exagerations but there is nothing that can guarantee nobody will get offended by any of these ideas (maybe not now but what in 5/10/20 years?). And at that point, what do we do? Do we change again? On my side, I don't see any advantages on the pedagogic side to change the activity to use something else that so I won't personally put efforts to directly work on it (but if there is a MR, I will review it as any other one), I have things I consider more important to work on GCompris. The application is to be played by children, let's not extrapolate everything and let's not add more activism than necessary in a software designed for children. Johnny ps : please, don't assume by this answer that I am for or against the third gender and not telling explicitely what is my opinion about it makes me by default against it. I think it is just not the place in GCompris.
Re: Genderidentity
Hi, On 1/6/22 18:56, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right place. Additionally, there is also a time and place to discuss gender identity topics, but the kde-devel mailing list thread about GCompris' usage of the KDE i18n API is not that time and place. Best, Sven OpenPGP_0xA4AAD0019BE03F15.asc Description: OpenPGP public key OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Genderidentity
What is going on? I need context here. Am Do., 6. Jan. 2022 um 12:20 Uhr schrieb Sandro Knauß : > > Sorry, that follow the side discussion, that has not connected to the > translation problem in first place. > > > yes, the aim is to have 2 distinct sets for the pedagogical point of view, > > it's a bit more complicated. > > Me personally is not and was never ok with the gender the society gave me. And > I fight hard against the binary gender thinking everywhere. And I'm very happy > that we finally have a third Gender option for official documents in Germany > called non-binary (German: Divers). Today I had some with public authorities > about something else, but they were aware of this and didn't put me > automatically into the binary gender box. I was very amazed. > > And than I read about this thread, that a program that is made for kids is > teaching them the binary gender system and are telling me that is a good thing > from a pedagogical point of view: Sorry NO! This is discriminating and making > it less likely that we will overcome with the discrimination. > > I know it is hard but we should find a separation attribute, that is not > discriminating e.g. color of cloths. > > Regards, > > sandro
Re: Genderidentity
On 1/6/22 10:56, Nicolás Alvarez wrote: There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children Speaking from the perspective of being a parent of two children, I strongly agree with Nicolás. There is a time and a place for each subject to be introduced. Gender identity is a fraught topic, and in general children who are not manifesting any discomfort with the gender identity they were assigned based on their biological sex don't need to be exposed to this information early, because it's not yet relevant to them. It's different for kids who feel discomfort with their assigned gender identity at an early age (as with almost all LGBTQ people I have known), but these situations are best handled by supportive parents and a supportive peer group IMO. Nate
Re: Genderidentity
El jue, 6 ene 2022 a la(s) 14:20, Sandro Knauß (skna...@kde.org) escribió: > > Sorry, that follow the side discussion, that has not connected to the > translation problem in first place. > > > yes, the aim is to have 2 distinct sets for the pedagogical point of view, > > it's a bit more complicated. > > Me personally is not and was never ok with the gender the society gave me. And > I fight hard against the binary gender thinking everywhere. And I'm very happy > that we finally have a third Gender option for official documents in Germany > called non-binary (German: Divers). Today I had some with public authorities > about something else, but they were aware of this and didn't put me > automatically into the binary gender box. I was very amazed. > > And than I read about this thread, that a program that is made for kids is > teaching them the binary gender system and are telling me that is a good thing > from a pedagogical point of view: Sorry NO! This is discriminating and making > it less likely that we will overcome with the discrimination. > > I know it is hard but we should find a separation attribute, that is not > discriminating e.g. color of cloths. There is a time and place to teach kids about the complexity of gender and I don't think an exercise about arithmetic/counting is the right place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children -- Nicolás
Genderidentity
Sorry, that follow the side discussion, that has not connected to the translation problem in first place. > yes, the aim is to have 2 distinct sets for the pedagogical point of view, > it's a bit more complicated. Me personally is not and was never ok with the gender the society gave me. And I fight hard against the binary gender thinking everywhere. And I'm very happy that we finally have a third Gender option for official documents in Germany called non-binary (German: Divers). Today I had some with public authorities about something else, but they were aware of this and didn't put me automatically into the binary gender box. I was very amazed. And than I read about this thread, that a program that is made for kids is teaching them the binary gender system and are telling me that is a good thing from a pedagogical point of view: Sorry NO! This is discriminating and making it less likely that we will overcome with the discrimination. I know it is hard but we should find a separation attribute, that is not discriminating e.g. color of cloths. Regards, sandro signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.