Re: [Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Greg Smith]

Regarding the plugin manager: it would be awesome if it could pull updates from 
the plugin author’s GitHub. Not sure exactly how to handle plugin version 
checking, KiCAD version compatibility and all the related issues (like 
security, forks, etc). But it’d be nice if there were a central registry or a 
simple text box where something as simple as “HiGregSmith/KiCommand” could be 
entered and the rest happens fairly automatically based either on the structure 
of the source repo, or a config file supplied in the repo by the plugin author.

Simple date check or SHA hash could be used for a “quick” check of config file 
updates.

I’d be happy to collaborate on this and discuss ideas, but I also understand 
the productivity of getting something up and running with your own ideas first.

Greg S.

> On Jun 30, 2020, at 6:08 PM, Andrew Lutsenko  wrote:
> 
> Plugin manager is in the works:  
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2242
> There will be some progress over the long weekend.
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:06 PM Nick Østergaard  wrote:
>> I like the sound of this idea, it could definitely help the workflow
>> for a lot of people.
>> 
>> What may be related to this is some properly "plugin" manager such
>> that it is easier to bundle some script and have some script installed
>> external, similar to the freecad addon manager.
>> 
>> I don't remember if anyone is seriously working on that, I sorta
>> expect that to be on hold unstill eeschema gets scripting support.
>> 
>> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:43, Eeli Kaikkonen  
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> While more extensibility is great. I can only say expecting the user to 
>> >> use python exclusively for adding the new behavior like for issue #2339 
>> >> is very crude.
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not saying any possible feature which can be replaced with a script 
>> > should be replaced. It must be decided case by case. I don't even say that 
>> > these examples are something where an internal feature should be replaced 
>> > with a hook. They are just possible examples to show what could be 
>> > possible. Just think about it this way:
>> >
>> > 1. Which one is better, just let the users wait for the feature to be 
>> > implemented, or add a hook which makes it possible to implement it right 
>> > away in a simple way in a script and then let the users wait for it to be 
>> > implemented in KiCad proper later?
>> >
>> > 2. Each hook makes it possible to add any imaginable functionality, not 
>> > just one feature wish.
>> >
>> > 3. Adding a hook doesn't take anything away, it just adds possibilities.
>> >
>> > 4. Any developer is still free to implement anything  in C++. Like now 
>> > they are free to implement a functionality which has existed only in an 
>> > action script before.
>> >
>> > 5. Adding a hook doesn't change the UI or the behavior in any way. They 
>> > wouldn't cause any bugs if the backend for the hook system is good. Hooks 
>> > could be added even for bugfix releases. It may be much better than 
>> > waiting for one or two years for the next feature release.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Not everyone is a programmer
>> >
>> >
>> > Sure. But big problems with scripting have been 1) the unstable API and 2) 
>> > the lack of asset infrastructure. Both are being worked on. When KiCad 
>> > scripting gets more traction and the scripts are easier to share and 
>> > install, not everyone needs to be a programmer and still can easily 
>> > benefit from the work from others. The potential number of python 
>> > developers for simple scripts like string  handling and generic file 
>> > manipulation is certainly larger than the amount of potential C++ 
>> > developers.
>> >
>> > And if we take that #2339 as an example, it would require a real GUI in 
>> > KiCad proper (because it would need a way to manipulate the list of 
>> > folders). A python script would be one a couple of python functions and a 
>> > list of text strings. If  someone writes the script, anyone can change the 
>> > list of strings, there's no need to be a programmer to change the names of 
>> > the folders. So, which one would be the better option: 1) add a simple 
>> > hook to make it possible and implement the GUI later, or 2) not make it 
>> > possible until someone implements the GUI?
>> >
>> > Eeli Kaikkonen
>> > ___
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> 
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> ___
> Mailing list: 

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Oleg Endo]

On Tue, 2020-06-30 at 09:28 +0200, jp charras wrote:
> 
> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
> never use them.
> 
> And about VCS use:
> 
> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
> compiled any source code.
> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.

This is unfortunately true.  It's also true that other commercial EDA
solutions are now moving towards providing built-in GIT support.  It's
inevitable -- the benefits are too obvious.  The VCS is the backup.  If
not, chances are it's being used wrongly.

There are also "software developers" out there who still use zip files
as a backup & VCS system.  And probably there are people still doing
dot & tape board layout... 

The world is changing.  Hopefully for the better :)

Cheers,
Oleg


___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Andrew Lutsenko]

Plugin manager is in the works:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2242
There will be some progress over the long weekend.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:06 PM Nick Østergaard  wrote:

> I like the sound of this idea, it could definitely help the workflow
> for a lot of people.
>
> What may be related to this is some properly "plugin" manager such
> that it is easier to bundle some script and have some script installed
> external, similar to the freecad addon manager.
>
> I don't remember if anyone is seriously working on that, I sorta
> expect that to be on hold unstill eeschema gets scripting support.
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:43, Eeli Kaikkonen 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM Mark Roszko 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> While more extensibility is great. I can only say expecting the user to
> use python exclusively for adding the new behavior like for issue #2339 is
> very crude.
> >
> >
> > I'm not saying any possible feature which can be replaced with a script
> should be replaced. It must be decided case by case. I don't even say that
> these examples are something where an internal feature should be replaced
> with a hook. They are just possible examples to show what could be
> possible. Just think about it this way:
> >
> > 1. Which one is better, just let the users wait for the feature to be
> implemented, or add a hook which makes it possible to implement it right
> away in a simple way in a script and then let the users wait for it to be
> implemented in KiCad proper later?
> >
> > 2. Each hook makes it possible to add any imaginable functionality, not
> just one feature wish.
> >
> > 3. Adding a hook doesn't take anything away, it just adds possibilities.
> >
> > 4. Any developer is still free to implement anything  in C++. Like now
> they are free to implement a functionality which has existed only in an
> action script before.
> >
> > 5. Adding a hook doesn't change the UI or the behavior in any way. They
> wouldn't cause any bugs if the backend for the hook system is good. Hooks
> could be added even for bugfix releases. It may be much better than waiting
> for one or two years for the next feature release.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Not everyone is a programmer
> >
> >
> > Sure. But big problems with scripting have been 1) the unstable API and
> 2) the lack of asset infrastructure. Both are being worked on. When KiCad
> scripting gets more traction and the scripts are easier to share and
> install, not everyone needs to be a programmer and still can easily benefit
> from the work from others. The potential number of python developers for
> simple scripts like string  handling and generic file manipulation is
> certainly larger than the amount of potential C++ developers.
> >
> > And if we take that #2339 as an example, it would require a real GUI in
> KiCad proper (because it would need a way to manipulate the list of
> folders). A python script would be one a couple of python functions and a
> list of text strings. If  someone writes the script, anyone can change the
> list of strings, there's no need to be a programmer to change the names of
> the folders. So, which one would be the better option: 1) add a simple hook
> to make it possible and implement the GUI later, or 2) not make it possible
> until someone implements the GUI?
> >
> > Eeli Kaikkonen
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Nick Østergaard]

I like the sound of this idea, it could definitely help the workflow
for a lot of people.

What may be related to this is some properly "plugin" manager such
that it is easier to bundle some script and have some script installed
external, similar to the freecad addon manager.

I don't remember if anyone is seriously working on that, I sorta
expect that to be on hold unstill eeschema gets scripting support.

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:43, Eeli Kaikkonen  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:
>>
>> While more extensibility is great. I can only say expecting the user to use 
>> python exclusively for adding the new behavior like for issue #2339 is very 
>> crude.
>
>
> I'm not saying any possible feature which can be replaced with a script 
> should be replaced. It must be decided case by case. I don't even say that 
> these examples are something where an internal feature should be replaced 
> with a hook. They are just possible examples to show what could be possible. 
> Just think about it this way:
>
> 1. Which one is better, just let the users wait for the feature to be 
> implemented, or add a hook which makes it possible to implement it right away 
> in a simple way in a script and then let the users wait for it to be 
> implemented in KiCad proper later?
>
> 2. Each hook makes it possible to add any imaginable functionality, not just 
> one feature wish.
>
> 3. Adding a hook doesn't take anything away, it just adds possibilities.
>
> 4. Any developer is still free to implement anything  in C++. Like now they 
> are free to implement a functionality which has existed only in an action 
> script before.
>
> 5. Adding a hook doesn't change the UI or the behavior in any way. They 
> wouldn't cause any bugs if the backend for the hook system is good. Hooks 
> could be added even for bugfix releases. It may be much better than waiting 
> for one or two years for the next feature release.
>
>
>>
>> Not everyone is a programmer
>
>
> Sure. But big problems with scripting have been 1) the unstable API and 2) 
> the lack of asset infrastructure. Both are being worked on. When KiCad 
> scripting gets more traction and the scripts are easier to share and install, 
> not everyone needs to be a programmer and still can easily benefit from the 
> work from others. The potential number of python developers for simple 
> scripts like string  handling and generic file manipulation is certainly 
> larger than the amount of potential C++ developers.
>
> And if we take that #2339 as an example, it would require a real GUI in KiCad 
> proper (because it would need a way to manipulate the list of folders). A 
> python script would be one a couple of python functions and a list of text 
> strings. If  someone writes the script, anyone can change the list of 
> strings, there's no need to be a programmer to change the names of the 
> folders. So, which one would be the better option: 1) add a simple hook to 
> make it possible and implement the GUI later, or 2) not make it possible 
> until someone implements the GUI?
>
> Eeli Kaikkonen
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:17 PM Mark Roszko  wrote:

> While more extensibility is great. I can only say expecting the user to
> use python exclusively for adding the new behavior like for issue #2339 is
> very crude.
>

I'm not saying any possible feature which can be replaced with a script
should be replaced. It must be decided case by case. I don't even say that
these examples are something where an internal feature should be replaced
with a hook. They are just possible examples to show what could be
possible. Just think about it this way:

1. Which one is better, just let the users wait for the feature to be
implemented, or add a hook which makes it possible to implement it right
away in a simple way in a script and then let the users wait for it to be
implemented in KiCad proper later?

2. Each hook makes it possible to add any imaginable functionality, not
just one feature wish.

3. Adding a hook doesn't take anything away, it just adds possibilities.

4. Any developer is still free to implement anything  in C++. Like now they
are free to implement a functionality which has existed only in an action
script before.

5. Adding a hook doesn't change the UI or the behavior in any way. They
wouldn't cause any bugs if the backend for the hook system is good. Hooks
could be added even for bugfix releases. It may be much better than waiting
for one or two years for the next feature release.



> Not everyone is a programmer
>

Sure. But big problems with scripting have been 1) the unstable API and 2)
the lack of asset infrastructure. Both are being worked on. When KiCad
scripting gets more traction and the scripts are easier to share and
install, not everyone needs to be a programmer and still can easily benefit
from the work from others. The potential number of python developers for
simple scripts like string  handling and generic file manipulation is
certainly larger than the amount of potential C++ developers.

And if we take that #2339 as an example, it would require a real GUI in
KiCad proper (because it would need a way to manipulate the list of
folders). A python script would be one a couple of python functions and a
list of text strings. If  someone writes the script, anyone can change the
list of strings, there's no need to be a programmer to change the names of
the folders. So, which one would be the better option: 1) add a simple hook
to make it possible and implement the GUI later, or 2) not make it possible
until someone implements the GUI?

Eeli Kaikkonen
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Mark Roszko]

While more extensibility is great. I can only say expecting the user to use
python exclusively for adding the new behavior like for issue #2339 is very
crude. Not everyone is a programmer or wants to be to draw a schematic. A
lot of functionality that's not overly specific should be considered
integrated in KiCad itself rather than turning KiCad into a strange python
IDE.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 1:17 PM Eeli Kaikkonen 
wrote:

> This post is partly inspired by "Auto-generated backup files: are they
> useful?" but I have been thinking about this for a longer time.
>
> KiCad could benefit from a scripting hook system. There could be
> pre-hooks and post-hooks for certain actions. Let's take this backup
> file discussion as an example. One system of backups or file history
> may not make everyone happy. What if KiCad had hooks for Save etc.? It
> would call, let's say pcbnew_save_pre() and pcbnew_save_post() python
> functions which could do anything they want to do with the project. In
> this case it could create backup files. The script writer would decide
> how it would be done.
>
> It could even use a third-party git or svn python library or external
> program and make a commit every time the user Saves the document.
>
> Let's take another example which was problematic in the past. I don't
> remember the details, but I think an attempt to enhance the window
> titles was abandoned because it was somehow problematic. What if there
> was pcbnew_mainwindow_printwindowtitle_pre(arg1, arg2...) hook which
> would return a string from the python function? It would take possible
> parts of the window title as arguments.  The python function could
> form the title as it likes.
>
> Third example: pcbnew_plot_gerber_post() could rename and zip the
> plotted gerber files. See
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2076.
>
> Fourth example: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2339.
> This is obviously something which is impossible to make to satisfy all
> use cases, but create_new_project_post() hook could create any folders
> the user wants.
>
> It's easy to see that only imagination is the limit, and this would
> take some needless responsibilities and decisions from the developers
> and would give freedom to the users. There could and often should be
> some reasonable default behavior, but the user could decide if it's
> enough. If the proper infrastructure (asset installer and repository)
> will be made, the users could share what they have.
>
> Eeli Kaikkonen
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


-- 
Mark
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

[Kicad-developers] Scripting hooks

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

This post is partly inspired by "Auto-generated backup files: are they
useful?" but I have been thinking about this for a longer time.

KiCad could benefit from a scripting hook system. There could be
pre-hooks and post-hooks for certain actions. Let's take this backup
file discussion as an example. One system of backups or file history
may not make everyone happy. What if KiCad had hooks for Save etc.? It
would call, let's say pcbnew_save_pre() and pcbnew_save_post() python
functions which could do anything they want to do with the project. In
this case it could create backup files. The script writer would decide
how it would be done.

It could even use a third-party git or svn python library or external
program and make a commit every time the user Saves the document.

Let's take another example which was problematic in the past. I don't
remember the details, but I think an attempt to enhance the window
titles was abandoned because it was somehow problematic. What if there
was pcbnew_mainwindow_printwindowtitle_pre(arg1, arg2...) hook which
would return a string from the python function? It would take possible
parts of the window title as arguments.  The python function could
form the title as it likes.

Third example: pcbnew_plot_gerber_post() could rename and zip the
plotted gerber files. See
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2076.

Fourth example: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/2339.
This is obviously something which is impossible to make to satisfy all
use cases, but create_new_project_post() hook could create any folders
the user wants.

It's easy to see that only imagination is the limit, and this would
take some needless responsibilities and decisions from the developers
and would give freedom to the users. There could and often should be
some reasonable default behavior, but the user could decide if it's
enough. If the proper infrastructure (asset installer and repository)
will be made, the users could share what they have.

Eeli Kaikkonen

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Jon Evans]

Give this issue a thumbs up: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/4763

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:21 PM Diego Herranz
 wrote:
>
> This possibility to save the last N backups would be useful. It is what 
> Altium does more or less and it has proven useful to me in the past. 
> Especially if you change your mind after 2h working on something which is not 
> going anywhere :)
>
> Thanks,
> Diego
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 15:15, Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like a great solution to me.
>>
>> On 6/30/20 10:12 AM, Jon Evans wrote:
>> > JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
>> >
>> > Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup function.
>> >
>> > I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
>> > because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
>> >
>> > I would propose:
>> >
>> > 1) Remove the current backup file generation
>> >
>> > 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
>> >
>> > - Can be turned on or off
>> > - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
>> > - Can keep the last N backups
>> > - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
>> >
>> > Anyone opposed to this?
>> >
>> > -Jon
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
>> >>>
>> >>> While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or 
>> >>> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of 
>> >>> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last 
>> >>> save and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have 
>> >>> no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer 
>> >>> a possible issue.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Hauptmech
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected 
>> >> happens.
>> >>
>> >> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need 
>> >> to use them.
>> >> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>> >>
>> >> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
>> >> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
>> >> contains all saved files
>> >> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
>> >> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>> >>
>> >> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep 
>> >> last n saved versions)
>> >> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>> >>
>> >> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
>> >> never use them.
>> >>
>> >> And about VCS use:
>> >>
>> >> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
>> >> compiled any source code.
>> >> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Ian McInerney]

Yes, it will use the system file rename command to rename the temp saved
file. If that system command fails, then wx will automatically attempt to
copy the temp saved file instead, and that will preserve the temp saved
file if it fails (so basically, the temp saved file will only be removed if
the operation succeeds).

-Ian

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 5:07 PM Andrew Lutsenko 
wrote:

> Ah, I reread now what the change to save logic was and I agree, the main
> reason for the current backup system is now irrelevant, assuming the last
> step of copying over the file is done using system functions and not by
> opening and writing the file.
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
>
>> What is the scenario that they guard against today?  I claim that they
>> don't do this anymore.
>>
>> Scenario 1:
>>
>> 1) Save, which succeeds
>> 2) Do some work, but don't hit save
>> 3) KiCad crashes
>>
>> Result: data after last save is lost
>>
>> Scenario 2:
>>
>> 1) Save, which succeeds
>> 2) Do some work, hit save
>> 3) KiCad crashes while saving file
>>
>> Result: The same as Scenario 1, since my recent change to save behavior.
>>
>> -Jon
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:09 AM Andrew Lutsenko 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think removing the current backup system before implementing a
>> new one is the right thing to do.
>> > As limited and simple as it is, the current system provides valuable
>> safeguard against data loss on crashes that may corrupt the main save file.
>> And no, VCS is not a replacement, most people hit ctrl-s a lot more often
>> than they do "git commit".
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:13 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
>> >>
>> >> Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup
>> function.
>> >>
>> >> I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
>> >> because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
>> >>
>> >> I would propose:
>> >>
>> >> 1) Remove the current backup file generation
>> >>
>> >> 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
>> >>
>> >> - Can be turned on or off
>> >> - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
>> >> - Can keep the last N backups
>> >> - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
>> >>
>> >> Anyone opposed to this?
>> >>
>> >> -Jon
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras 
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
>> >> > >
>> >> > > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or
>> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of
>> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save
>> and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I
>> have no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no
>> longer a possible issue.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > -Hauptmech
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected
>> happens.
>> >> >
>> >> > Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not
>> need to use them.
>> >> > But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>> >> >
>> >> > I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
>> >> > only one zip archive is created (for instance
>> projectname_backup.zip) and contains all saved files
>> >> > (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
>> >> > This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to
>> keep last n saved versions)
>> >> > and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>> >> >
>> >> > For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you
>> hope never use them.
>> >> >
>> >> > And about VCS use:
>> >> >
>> >> > Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have
>> never compiled any source code.
>> >> > Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>> >> >
>> >> > ___
>> >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> >> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : 

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Diego Herranz]

This possibility to save the last N backups would be useful. It is what
Altium does more or less and it has proven useful to me in the past.
Especially if you change your mind after 2h working on something which is
not going anywhere :)

Thanks,
Diego

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 15:15, Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:

> Sounds like a great solution to me.
>
> On 6/30/20 10:12 AM, Jon Evans wrote:
> > JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
> >
> > Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup
> function.
> >
> > I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
> > because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
> >
> > I would propose:
> >
> > 1) Remove the current backup file generation
> >
> > 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
> >
> > - Can be turned on or off
> > - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
> > - Can keep the last N backups
> > - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
> >
> > Anyone opposed to this?
> >
> > -Jon
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> >>>
> >>> While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or
> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of
> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save
> and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> >>>
> >>> I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have
> no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a
> possible issue.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Hauptmech
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected
> happens.
> >>
> >> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not
> need to use them.
> >> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
> >>
> >> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> >> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip)
> and contains all saved files
> >> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> >> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
> >>
> >> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep
> last n saved versions)
> >> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
> >>
> >> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you
> hope never use them.
> >>
> >> And about VCS use:
> >>
> >> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never
> compiled any source code.
> >> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Andrew Lutsenko]

Ah, I reread now what the change to save logic was and I agree, the main
reason for the current backup system is now irrelevant, assuming the last
step of copying over the file is done using system functions and not by
opening and writing the file.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 8:15 AM Jon Evans  wrote:

> What is the scenario that they guard against today?  I claim that they
> don't do this anymore.
>
> Scenario 1:
>
> 1) Save, which succeeds
> 2) Do some work, but don't hit save
> 3) KiCad crashes
>
> Result: data after last save is lost
>
> Scenario 2:
>
> 1) Save, which succeeds
> 2) Do some work, hit save
> 3) KiCad crashes while saving file
>
> Result: The same as Scenario 1, since my recent change to save behavior.
>
> -Jon
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:09 AM Andrew Lutsenko 
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think removing the current backup system before implementing a
> new one is the right thing to do.
> > As limited and simple as it is, the current system provides valuable
> safeguard against data loss on crashes that may corrupt the main save file.
> And no, VCS is not a replacement, most people hit ctrl-s a lot more often
> than they do "git commit".
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:13 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
> >>
> >> JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
> >>
> >> Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup
> function.
> >>
> >> I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
> >> because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
> >>
> >> I would propose:
> >>
> >> 1) Remove the current backup file generation
> >>
> >> 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
> >>
> >> - Can be turned on or off
> >> - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
> >> - Can keep the last N backups
> >> - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
> >>
> >> Anyone opposed to this?
> >>
> >> -Jon
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> >> > >
> >> > > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or
> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of
> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save
> and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> >> > >
> >> > > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I
> have no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no
> longer a possible issue.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -Hauptmech
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected
> happens.
> >> >
> >> > Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not
> need to use them.
> >> > But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
> >> >
> >> > I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> >> > only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip)
> and contains all saved files
> >> > (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> >> > This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
> >> >
> >> > This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to
> keep last n saved versions)
> >> > and is a security against  unexpected cases.
> >> >
> >> > For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you
> hope never use them.
> >> >
> >> > And about VCS use:
> >> >
> >> > Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have
> never compiled any source code.
> >> > Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> >> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Jon Evans]

What is the scenario that they guard against today?  I claim that they
don't do this anymore.

Scenario 1:

1) Save, which succeeds
2) Do some work, but don't hit save
3) KiCad crashes

Result: data after last save is lost

Scenario 2:

1) Save, which succeeds
2) Do some work, hit save
3) KiCad crashes while saving file

Result: The same as Scenario 1, since my recent change to save behavior.

-Jon

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:09 AM Andrew Lutsenko  wrote:
>
> I don't think removing the current backup system before implementing a new 
> one is the right thing to do.
> As limited and simple as it is, the current system provides valuable 
> safeguard against data loss on crashes that may corrupt the main save file. 
> And no, VCS is not a replacement, most people hit ctrl-s a lot more often 
> than they do "git commit".
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:13 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
>>
>> JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
>>
>> Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup function.
>>
>> I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
>> because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
>>
>> I would propose:
>>
>> 1) Remove the current backup file generation
>>
>> 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
>>
>> - Can be turned on or off
>> - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
>> - Can keep the last N backups
>> - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
>>
>> Anyone opposed to this?
>>
>> -Jon
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras  wrote:
>> >
>> > Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
>> > >
>> > > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or 
>> > > version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of 
>> > > users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last 
>> > > save and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
>> > >
>> > > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have 
>> > > no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer 
>> > > a possible issue.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -Hauptmech
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected 
>> > happens.
>> >
>> > Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need 
>> > to use them.
>> > But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>> >
>> > I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
>> > only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
>> > contains all saved files
>> > (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
>> > This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>> >
>> > This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep 
>> > last n saved versions)
>> > and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>> >
>> > For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
>> > never use them.
>> >
>> > And about VCS use:
>> >
>> > Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
>> > compiled any source code.
>> > Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Andrew Lutsenko]

I don't think removing the current backup system before implementing a new
one is the right thing to do.
As limited and simple as it is, the current system provides valuable
safeguard against data loss on crashes that may corrupt the main save file.
And no, VCS is not a replacement, most people hit ctrl-s a lot more often
than they do "git commit".


On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 7:13 AM Jon Evans  wrote:

> JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
>
> Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup function.
>
> I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
> because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
>
> I would propose:
>
> 1) Remove the current backup file generation
>
> 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
>
> - Can be turned on or off
> - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
> - Can keep the last N backups
> - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
>
> Anyone opposed to this?
>
> -Jon
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras  wrote:
> >
> > Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> > >
> > > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or
> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of
> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save
> and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> > >
> > > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have
> no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a
> possible issue.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Hauptmech
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected
> happens.
> >
> > Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not
> need to use them.
> > But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
> >
> > I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> > only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip)
> and contains all saved files
> > (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> > This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
> >
> > This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep
> last n saved versions)
> > and is a security against  unexpected cases.
> >
> > For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you
> hope never use them.
> >
> > And about VCS use:
> >
> > Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never
> compiled any source code.
> > Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
> >
> > --
> > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Sounds like a great solution to me.

On 6/30/20 10:12 AM, Jon Evans wrote:
> JP, I agree that true backups are useful.
> 
> Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup function.
> 
> I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
> because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).
> 
> I would propose:
> 
> 1) Remove the current backup file generation
> 
> 2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:
> 
> - Can be turned on or off
> - Backs up the whole project in a zip file
> - Can keep the last N backups
> - Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.
> 
> Anyone opposed to this?
> 
> -Jon
> 
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras  wrote:
>>
>> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
>>>
>>> While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or version 
>>> control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of users data 
>>> through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save and the 
>>> crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
>>>
>>> I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have no 
>>> idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a 
>>> possible issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Hauptmech
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected happens.
>>
>> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need to 
>> use them.
>> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>>
>> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
>> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
>> contains all saved files
>> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
>> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>>
>> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep last 
>> n saved versions)
>> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>>
>> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
>> never use them.
>>
>> And about VCS use:
>>
>> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
>> compiled any source code.
>> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>>
>> --
>> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Jon Evans]

JP, I agree that true backups are useful.

Maybe even it is a good idea for KiCad to have a built-in backup function.

I just don't think the current backup function is actually useful
because of my first point (backups are overwritten on each save).

I would propose:

1) Remove the current backup file generation

2) Create a spec (in GitLab issue) for a better backup system that:

- Can be turned on or off
- Backs up the whole project in a zip file
- Can keep the last N backups
- Runs on a schedule, not necessarily every time you click Save.

Anyone opposed to this?

-Jon

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 3:32 AM jp charras  wrote:
>
> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> >
> > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or version 
> > control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of users data 
> > through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save and the 
> > crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> >
> > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have no 
> > idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a 
> > possible issue.
> >
> >
> > -Hauptmech
> >
> >
>
> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected happens.
>
> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need to 
> use them.
> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>
> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
> contains all saved files
> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>
> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep last n 
> saved versions)
> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>
> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
> never use them.
>
> And about VCS use:
>
> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
> compiled any source code.
> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>
> --
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Jeff Young]

I find the backup files in the directory pretty annoying.

While it’s not ideal I’m willing to completely lose the backup functionality to 
fix that.

I’m also fine with building a more sophisticated system to folder them (ie: one 
that can handle the external files), but only if it’s going to actually get 
done for 6.0.  If it’s going to result in the can getting kicked further down 
the road, them I’d rather remove the feature.

Cheers,
Jeff.

> On 30 Jun 2020, at 12:57, Nick Østergaard  wrote:
> 
> Last time I looked, there was rescue feature in the file menu of pcbnew, I 
> think. I never used it, I don't really know what it does, but I guess it just 
> reads the bak file.
> 
> tir. 30. jun. 2020 09.32 skrev jp charras  >:
> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> > 
> > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or version 
> > control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of users data 
> > through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save and the 
> > crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> > 
> > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have no 
> > idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a 
> > possible issue.
> > 
> > 
> > -Hauptmech
> > 
> > 
> 
> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected happens.
> 
> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need to 
> use them.
> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
> 
> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
> contains all saved files
> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
> 
> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep last n 
> saved versions)
> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
> 
> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope 
> never use them.
> 
> And about VCS use:
> 
> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never 
> compiled any source code.
> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
> 
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers 
> 
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net 
> 
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers 
> 
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp 
> 
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[Nick Østergaard]

Last time I looked, there was rescue feature in the file menu of pcbnew, I
think. I never used it, I don't really know what it does, but I guess it
just reads the bak file.

tir. 30. jun. 2020 09.32 skrev jp charras :

> Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> >
> > While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or
> version control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of
> users data through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save
> and the crash is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> >
> > I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have
> no idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a
> possible issue.
> >
> >
> > -Hauptmech
> >
> >
>
> I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected
> happens.
>
> Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need
> to use them.
> But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.
>
> I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
> only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and
> contains all saved files
> (in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
> This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.
>
> This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep
> last n saved versions)
> and is a security against  unexpected cases.
>
> For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope
> never use them.
>
> And about VCS use:
>
> Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never
> compiled any source code.
> Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.
>
> --
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

Re: [Kicad-developers] Auto-generated backup files: are they useful?

[jp charras]

Le 30/06/2020 à 00:13, hauptmech a écrit :
> 
> While I agree that it is not KiCad's job to do archival backups or version 
> control, I do think that KiCad should preserve the integrity of users data 
> through a crash. Even better if the work between the last save and the crash 
> is also preserved and recovered on restart.
> 
> I have had to use the backup files to recover data in the past. I have no 
> idea if that recovery was related to something that is now no longer a 
> possible issue.
> 
> 
> -Hauptmech
> 
> 

I am also thinking a backup can be useful when something unexpected happens.

Backups, like any security system, bothers you as long as you do not need to 
use them.
But you are happy to find them in case of trouble.

I like the way some CAD tools manage backup:
only one zip archive is created (for instance projectname_backup.zip) and 
contains all saved files
(in our case: *.kicad_sch (and sub paths) and .kicad_pcb)
This is not a full project backup, just main files are saved.

This is not invasive (only one file, or a few .zip if one want to keep last n 
saved versions)
and is a security against  unexpected cases.

For me, backups are like a accident insurance: you need them and you hope never 
use them.

And about VCS use:

Many good electronics guys do not even know what is it, and have never compiled 
any source code.
Electronics world and Software world are not exactly the same world.

-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp