Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

My opinion is that what KiCad currently does is fine and the library
contributors
already ensure that VRML files are scaled to meet KiCad's expectations.
The fact that various tools will use different units in a VRML file and
that few
tools (including MCADs, our primary source of high quality models)
 will actually use a unit of meters is an indication of a poorly worded
spec in
addition to the lack of a qualification program for implementations of the
standard.  For me there is no need to change KiCad's interpretation of
VRML units; it is good enough that the documentation already clearly states
what is expected of the VRML files.  However, I think we do gain something
by
eventually deprecating the scaling; the question is how much pain do we
cause
current users and what can we do to help them. I think the suggestion of a
tool
to create extrusions is a good one, though some thought would need to go
into
exactly what that tool will be and how it will work. At any rate, I think
it's safe
to say that for now we can require that all scaling factors be greater than
some
amount - I'm tempted to say 0.01.  I don't think a zero scaling factor is
acceptable.
I'd bet it would also be an extremely rare case that anyone might want a
scaling
factor smaller than 0.01, and anyone who uses such a model should consider
making some changes.

Cirilo




On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 9:34 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> The document I linked is the HTML version of the ISO/IEC standard as
> published by the Web3D consortium (previously known as the VRML
> consortium).  There is no textual difference between the PDF of the ISO
> document and the webpage.
>
> If Wings3D doesn't use this, then it makes sense that we may have
> originally chosen the unit used in Wings.  But that doesn't mean that we
> need to continue this practice.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:08 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Seth,
>>   What you have on the w3 site is essentially an interpretation by the
>> author of that page;
>> the spec referred to reads differently. At any rate, that doesn't change
>> the fact that existing
>> software for creating VRML (including Wings3D that many KiCad users used
>> long ago)
>> don't use a unit of 1m - and it all really comes back to the spec being
>> poorly worded and
>> various implementers interpreting it differently. If it sounds like I'm
>> being pedantic it's
>> because I've implemented too many standards specs over the years and
>> suffered
>> poor implementations even on points where I thought the language was
>> clear.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:58 AM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't follow your statement.  The standard says "ISO/IEC 14772 defines
>>> the unit of measure of the world coordinate system to be metres."  There is
>>> no ambiguity here, so I would feel comfortable with saying that KiCad also
>>> defines the VRML standard unit to be meters (metres).
>>>
>>> As to the file savings, this is easily addressed by defining a single,
>>> new coordinate system in inches or microns that scales the global system.
>>> All units in the file are then in scaled coordinates.
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 3:50 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
>>> cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 That's the same reference - the problem is with the wording 'is', not
 'shall' or 'must be'.
 The reality is that for every tool you pick that generates VRML models,
 the unit used is
 anyone's guess.  On top of that, for KiCad's purposes using meters
 would actually
 be a nuisance and would unnecessarily bloat the VRML file. Many parts
 often have
 features on the order of 10 microns; using mm or even 0.1 inches shaves
 off a lot of
 zeroes (or repetitive exponents).

 Cirilo


 On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM Seth Hillbrand 
 wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
> cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much
>> easier.
>>
>
> See
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
> This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
> referring to?
>
> -Seth
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>

>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

The document I linked is the HTML version of the ISO/IEC standard as
published by the Web3D consortium (previously known as the VRML
consortium).  There is no textual difference between the PDF of the ISO
document and the webpage.

If Wings3D doesn't use this, then it makes sense that we may have
originally chosen the unit used in Wings.  But that doesn't mean that we
need to continue this practice.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:08 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
wrote:

> Hi Seth,
>   What you have on the w3 site is essentially an interpretation by the
> author of that page;
> the spec referred to reads differently. At any rate, that doesn't change
> the fact that existing
> software for creating VRML (including Wings3D that many KiCad users used
> long ago)
> don't use a unit of 1m - and it all really comes back to the spec being
> poorly worded and
> various implementers interpreting it differently. If it sounds like I'm
> being pedantic it's
> because I've implemented too many standards specs over the years and
> suffered
> poor implementations even on points where I thought the language was clear.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:58 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>> I don't follow your statement.  The standard says "ISO/IEC 14772 defines
>> the unit of measure of the world coordinate system to be metres."  There is
>> no ambiguity here, so I would feel comfortable with saying that KiCad also
>> defines the VRML standard unit to be meters (metres).
>>
>> As to the file savings, this is easily addressed by defining a single,
>> new coordinate system in inches or microns that scales the global system.
>> All units in the file are then in scaled coordinates.
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 3:50 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
>> cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's the same reference - the problem is with the wording 'is', not
>>> 'shall' or 'must be'.
>>> The reality is that for every tool you pick that generates VRML models,
>>> the unit used is
>>> anyone's guess.  On top of that, for KiCad's purposes using meters would
>>> actually
>>> be a nuisance and would unnecessarily bloat the VRML file. Many parts
>>> often have
>>> features on the order of 10 microns; using mm or even 0.1 inches shaves
>>> off a lot of
>>> zeroes (or repetitive exponents).
>>>
>>> Cirilo
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM Seth Hillbrand 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
 cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much
> easier.
>

 See
 https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
 This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
 referring to?

 -Seth

 --
 [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
 Seth Hillbrand
 *Lead Developer*
 +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
 Davis, CA
 www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com

>>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>
>

-- 
[image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
Seth Hillbrand
*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Hi Seth,
  What you have on the w3 site is essentially an interpretation by the
author of that page;
the spec referred to reads differently. At any rate, that doesn't change
the fact that existing
software for creating VRML (including Wings3D that many KiCad users used
long ago)
don't use a unit of 1m - and it all really comes back to the spec being
poorly worded and
various implementers interpreting it differently. If it sounds like I'm
being pedantic it's
because I've implemented too many standards specs over the years and
suffered
poor implementations even on points where I thought the language was clear.


On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:58 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> I don't follow your statement.  The standard says "ISO/IEC 14772 defines
> the unit of measure of the world coordinate system to be metres."  There is
> no ambiguity here, so I would feel comfortable with saying that KiCad also
> defines the VRML standard unit to be meters (metres).
>
> As to the file savings, this is easily addressed by defining a single, new
> coordinate system in inches or microns that scales the global system.  All
> units in the file are then in scaled coordinates.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 3:50 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
> wrote:
>
>> That's the same reference - the problem is with the wording 'is', not
>> 'shall' or 'must be'.
>> The reality is that for every tool you pick that generates VRML models,
>> the unit used is
>> anyone's guess.  On top of that, for KiCad's purposes using meters would
>> actually
>> be a nuisance and would unnecessarily bloat the VRML file. Many parts
>> often have
>> features on the order of 10 microns; using mm or even 0.1 inches shaves
>> off a lot of
>> zeroes (or repetitive exponents).
>>
>> Cirilo
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
>>> cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much
 easier.

>>>
>>> See
>>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
>>> This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
>>> referring to?
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

I don't follow your statement.  The standard says "ISO/IEC 14772 defines
the unit of measure of the world coordinate system to be metres."  There is
no ambiguity here, so I would feel comfortable with saying that KiCad also
defines the VRML standard unit to be meters (metres).

As to the file savings, this is easily addressed by defining a single, new
coordinate system in inches or microns that scales the global system.  All
units in the file are then in scaled coordinates.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 3:50 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
wrote:

> That's the same reference - the problem is with the wording 'is', not
> 'shall' or 'must be'.
> The reality is that for every tool you pick that generates VRML models,
> the unit used is
> anyone's guess.  On top of that, for KiCad's purposes using meters would
> actually
> be a nuisance and would unnecessarily bloat the VRML file. Many parts
> often have
> features on the order of 10 microns; using mm or even 0.1 inches shaves
> off a lot of
> zeroes (or repetitive exponents).
>
> Cirilo
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo <
>> cirilo.berna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much
>>> easier.
>>>
>>
>> See
>> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
>> This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
>> referring to?
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>
>

-- 
[image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
Seth Hillbrand
*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

That's the same reference - the problem is with the wording 'is', not
'shall' or 'must be'.
The reality is that for every tool you pick that generates VRML models, the
unit used is
anyone's guess.  On top of that, for KiCad's purposes using meters would
actually
be a nuisance and would unnecessarily bloat the VRML file. Many parts often
have
features on the order of 10 microns; using mm or even 0.1 inches shaves off
a lot of
zeroes (or repetitive exponents).

Cirilo


On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much easier.
>>
>
> See
> https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
> This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
> referring to?
>
> -Seth
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Haha, I forgot about those tools (and tutorial) that I had written.
For simple blobs IDF works fine;
a basic editor can start with simple closed curves and if someone had
the inclination they could
even allow the creation of more sophisticated parts.  In the short
term the idfrect and idfcyl tools
can be mutated into a tool accessible from the kicad menu.  I see
there is also a dxf2idf tool for
anyone who wants to create sophisticated 2D extrusions; of course it
comes with the usual
DXF caveats (some DXF software does not correctly specify units, there
may be bugs in the
tool's dxf processing routine, etc).

https://docs.kicad-pcb.org/5.1/en/idf_exporter/idf_exporter.html

Cirilo

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:09 AM Nick Østergaard  wrote:
>
> A solution to this could be go genrate idf models more interactively as 
> suggested Jon. We already have idfcyl and idfrect as references. I assume 
> there is no reason to use IDF over STEP as the physical representation.
>
> On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 21:01, Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>>
>> that would work for me too ;)
>>
>> Mario
>>
>> 
>> From: Jon Evans 
>> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:53
>> To: Mário Luzeiro
>> Cc: Seth Hillbrand; kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>>
>> Note Altium's solution to the use case of needing "easy basic models": it 
>> can actually generate the models built-in.
>>
>> You just specify some parameters and it will generate cylinders, spheres, or 
>> extruded shapes from a 2D contour.
>>
>> If we could add this kind of feature in the future, maybe we would not need 
>> to support "stretching" generic models, as we could just generate the right 
>> generic model parametrically (without "stretching" a source model)
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Mário Luzeiro 
>> mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
>> From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
>> I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc) 
>> and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to 
>> populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
>> This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house packages, 
>> displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
>> I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and 
>> then export it for CAD purposes.
>>
>> If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD software 
>> :/ :)
>>
>> My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the 
>> UI and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that time, 
>> displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for CAD.."
>>
>>
>> > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type 
>> > that was supported
>>
>> Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to 
>> implement.
>> For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
>> On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model 
>> importer code alone and it took some months of work..
>>
>> Mario
>>
>> 
>> From: Kicad-developers 
>> mailto:ua...@lists.launchpad.net>>
>>  on behalf of Seth Hillbrand mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>
>> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
>> To: Jon Evans
>> Cc: 
>> kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net<mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>>
>> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if 
>> we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on 
>> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>>
>> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
>> mailto:j...@craftyjon.com><mailto:j...@craftyjon.com<mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>>>
>>  wrote:
>> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML 
>> import in the first place.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com><mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com<mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
>>  wrote:
>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
>> meters, so if we're assuming inche

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Mário Luzeiro]

Hi Cirilo,

Thanks but for VRML I think it is not needed :)
Remember.. that it can be set ("manually") on the VRML model files by adding a 
scale on a shape group (that I think the current VRML importer suport)

Adding scale on the VRML file manually could be an workaround in future if this 
(what it is discussed on this thread) become a condition / issue.

Mario


From: Cirilo Bernardo 
Sent: 29 September 2020 23:17
To: Mário Luzeiro
Cc: Seth Hillbrand; Jon Evans; kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

HI Mario,

 Maybe I could make a small tool to allow you to create different
sized/colored boxes and cylinders
in VRML format. Would that be helpful to you? We could possibly even
add other basic shapes.
I'd like to help users move away from scaling (it's something I always
wished I could get rid of).
Unfortunately I see no way we can do this without causing a lot of
pain to all users who currently
have scaled VRML models.

Cirilo

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 4:51 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
> From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
> I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc) 
> and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to 
> populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
> This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house packages, 
> displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
> I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and then 
> export it for CAD purposes.
>
> If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD software 
> :/ :)
>
> My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the UI 
> and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that time, 
> displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for CAD.."
>
>
> > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type 
> > that was supported
>
> Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to 
> implement.
> For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
> On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model 
> importer code alone and it took some months of work..
>
> Mario
>
> 
> From: Kicad-developers 
>  on behalf of 
> Seth Hillbrand 
> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
> To: Jon Evans
> Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>
> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if 
> we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on 
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
> mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML 
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do 
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify 
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, 
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
> mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle 
> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go OpenSCAD 
> -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes 
> for easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely given in mm) and 
> then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to 
> make it the proper size because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about 
> what unit system the VRML file is in.
>
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad 
> normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units 
> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>
> -Ian
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here altogether.  
> The logic being that if

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Jon Evans]

(I reopened https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/3453 )

I personally think the best tool we could create is one that allows you to
take a closed shape drawn on a board layer and extrude that by a given
height to create a model that can then be exported as a STEP along with the
rest of the board.
If we did that, we would not need any specific tools for creating boxes or
cylinders.

I think this is somewhat independent from the topic of what to do about
VRML scaling.

-Jon

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:17 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
wrote:

> HI Mario,
>
>  Maybe I could make a small tool to allow you to create different
> sized/colored boxes and cylinders
> in VRML format. Would that be helpful to you? We could possibly even
> add other basic shapes.
> I'd like to help users move away from scaling (it's something I always
> wished I could get rid of).
> Unfortunately I see no way we can do this without causing a lot of
> pain to all users who currently
> have scaled VRML models.
>
> Cirilo
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 4:51 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
> >
> > From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
> > I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness,
> etc) and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale)
> to populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
> > This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house
> packages, displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
> > I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and
> then export it for CAD purposes.
> >
> > If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD
> software :/ :)
> >
> > My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on
> the UI and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that
> time, displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for
> CAD.."
> >
> >
> > > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model
> type that was supported
> >
> > Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to
> implement.
> > For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
> > On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the
> model importer code alone and it took some months of work..
> >
> > Mario
> >
> > ________
> > From: Kicad-developers  ua...@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Seth Hillbrand  >
> > Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
> > To: Jon Evans
> > Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive
> values?
> >
> > I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I
> suspect if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff
> on support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
> >
> > I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
> >
> > -Seth
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
> > Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  <mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> > Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
> >
> > In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
> >
> > -Seth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney  <mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
> > We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
> handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
> >
> > In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
> >
> > -

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Mário Luzeiro]

> Out of curiosity, does anyone have a screenshot from the old 3D Viewer?

Maybe this ones:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kicad_3dviewer.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pcbnew_3d_viewer.png
https://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/_media/applications/kicad/visu3d_sc.png

:)

Mario


From: Kicad-developers 
 on behalf of 
Cirilo Bernardo 
Sent: 29 September 2020 23:08
To: Seth Hillbrand
Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

I don't know who created the original 3D viewer (our current viewer is a 100%
rewrite by Mario), but VRML was chosen because it could be reasonably
implemented and many users found it helpful for things such as checking for
mechanical collisions on the board and of course also for giving some idea
of what the finished board might look like.  I put in the IDF code and later the
STEP code because VRML models have no value to me at all for any design
activities that require interactions with MCAD.  STEP/IGES are non-trivial and
we would probably not have been able to support it at all if not for 
OpenCascade.
Remember that even Eagle, which has been around a long time, didn't have
STEP support until shortly before KiCad had STEP support. Out of curiosity,
does anyone have a screenshot from the old 3D Viewer? It would be nice to
show it alongside output from the current one just to show how much better
the new one is.


On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 4:02 AM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if we 
were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on support/benefit 
for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.

I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML import 
in the first place.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do we 
need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?

In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify non-unity 
scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, 
Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).

-Seth




On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle 
proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go OpenSCAD 
-> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes 
for easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely given in mm) and 
then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to make 
it the proper size because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about what 
unit system the VRML file is in.

In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad 
normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units 
(dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here altogether.  
The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should be doing this in 
your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come around to this idea and 
it might be worth implementing rather than doing the scale limiting.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro 
mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive values?

Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on the 
models.

Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
or should be safe to limit it?

This is related with this issues:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

Mario
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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--
[KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
Seth Hillbrand
Lead Developer
+1-530-302-5483‬
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.com<https://www.kipro-pcb.com/>
i...@kipro-pcb.com<mailto:i...@kipro-pcb.com>
___
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More help   :

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

HI Mario,

 Maybe I could make a small tool to allow you to create different
sized/colored boxes and cylinders
in VRML format. Would that be helpful to you? We could possibly even
add other basic shapes.
I'd like to help users move away from scaling (it's something I always
wished I could get rid of).
Unfortunately I see no way we can do this without causing a lot of
pain to all users who currently
have scaled VRML models.

Cirilo

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 4:51 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
> From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
> I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc) 
> and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to 
> populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
> This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house packages, 
> displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
> I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and then 
> export it for CAD purposes.
>
> If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD software 
> :/ :)
>
> My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the UI 
> and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that time, 
> displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for CAD.."
>
>
> > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type 
> > that was supported
>
> Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to 
> implement.
> For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
> On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model 
> importer code alone and it took some months of work..
>
> Mario
>
> 
> From: Kicad-developers 
>  on behalf of 
> Seth Hillbrand 
> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
> To: Jon Evans
> Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>
> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if 
> we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on 
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
> mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML 
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do 
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify 
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, 
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
> mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle 
> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go OpenSCAD 
> -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes 
> for easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely given in mm) and 
> then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to 
> make it the proper size because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about 
> what unit system the VRML file is in.
>
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad 
> normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units 
> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>
> -Ian
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here altogether.  
> The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should be doing this 
> in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come around to this 
> idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro 
> mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive 
> values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on the 
> models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be s

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

I don't know who created the original 3D viewer (our current viewer is a
100%
rewrite by Mario), but VRML was chosen because it could be reasonably
implemented and many users found it helpful for things such as checking for
mechanical collisions on the board and of course also for giving some idea
of what the finished board might look like.  I put in the IDF code and
later the
STEP code because VRML models have no value to me at all for any design
activities that require interactions with MCAD.  STEP/IGES are non-trivial
and
we would probably not have been able to support it at all if not for
OpenCascade.
Remember that even Eagle, which has been around a long time, didn't have
STEP support until shortly before KiCad had STEP support. Out of curiosity,
does anyone have a screenshot from the old 3D Viewer? It would be nice to
show it alongside output from the current one just to show how much better
the new one is.


On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 4:02 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect
> if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
>
>> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
>> import in the first place.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>>
>>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
 handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
 OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
 because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
 nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
 all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
 hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.

 In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
 KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
 (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

 -Ian

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
 wrote:

> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
> the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
>> positive values?
>>
>> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
>> on the models.
>>
>> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
>> or should be safe to limit it?
>>
>> This is related with this issues:
>> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>>
>> Mario
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : 

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Specifying a 'VRML unit' will not work for many users since they like to
scale
cylinders/boxes to represent many (all?) components and regularly use
a different scale for each axis.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 3:39 AM Ian McInerney 
wrote:

> I am all for removing scaling completely on STEP models - those should be
> properly defined. I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the
> first model type that was supported, but we shouldn't remove it since it is
> used primarily in the 3D viewer to get better renders.
>
> We can probably go down to 1 scaling input for VRML models, but why not
> just turn it into a "VRML Units" selection and provide a list of the common
> units and compute the scaling factor from that? That should be the only use
> case when scaling VRML is needed.
>
> -Ian
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jon Evans  wrote:
>
>> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
>> import in the first place.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>>
>>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
 handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
 OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
 because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
 nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
 all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
 hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.

 In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
 KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
 (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

 -Ian

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
 wrote:

> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
> the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
>> positive values?
>>
>> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
>> on the models.
>>
>> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
>> or should be safe to limit it?
>>
>> This is related with this issues:
>> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>>
>> Mario
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>

>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>
>> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
Post to : 

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Although scaling is allowed in the IGES and STEP specifications, I have
*never* encountered MCAD
software that allowed a scale other than 1 and in engineering there are
essentially no acceptable
reasons to use any other scale factor.  When engineers specify parts for an
assembly, the parts need
to be exactly as described and within specified tolerances. If PartA is
used multiple times or even used
only once in Project1 and in Project2 but PartA has instances with
different scaling then good luck even
getting your manufacturers to produce the correct part for you.  Those of
us who use MCAD models
are absolutely reliant on everything having a uniform scaling of 1. This is
particularly important when we
have a very close fit - just think of how everything is stuffed into a
mobile phone.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 3:23 AM Jon Evans  wrote:

> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>
>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
>>> handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
>>> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
>>> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
>>> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
>>> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
>>> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>>>
>>> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
>>> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
>>> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>>>
>>> -Ian
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
 altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
 be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
 around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
 the scale limiting.

 -Seth

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
> positive values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
> on the models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be safe to limit it?
>
> This is related with this issues:
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>
> Mario
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:33 PM Cirilo Bernardo 
wrote:

> Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much easier.
>

See
https://www.web3d.org/documents/specifications/14772/V2.0/part1/concepts.html#4.4.5
This reads pretty clear to me.  Was there a different reference you are
referring to?

-Seth

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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Eeli Kaikkonen]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:54 PM Jon Evans  wrote:

> Note Altium's solution to the use case of needing "easy basic models": it
> can actually generate the models built-in.
>
> You just specify some parameters and it will generate cylinders, spheres,
> or extruded shapes from a 2D contour.
>
> If we could add this kind of feature in the future, maybe we would not
> need to support "stretching" generic models, as we could just generate the
> right generic model parametrically (without "stretching" a source model)
>
>
It has already been marked as opinion :)
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/3453

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Oh, I wish VRML specified meters - that would have made life much easier.
No, VRML *recommends* that the units be meters - the reality is that there
are models in inches,
0.1 inches, mm, cm and who knows what else, and unlike CAD model
specifications there is no
mechanism for specifying the units. I had to keep the scaling option when
we moved
to the new 3D tools 6 years ago due to lack of models and the fact that if
I removed it I would
break things for everyone who used the 3D viewer.  I haven't been following
the library developments
for a long time, but I think Maui's FreeCAD tools are the largest source of
models for KiCad and
from the start his scripts have scaled the generated VRML model so that a
scale of (1,1,1) is all
KiCad ever needed.  Personally I would be happy to remove scaling options
and force people to
do things as engineers are trained to do.  In reality there would be many
upset users whose 3D
renderings are totally messed up. This scaling thing comes back to bite us
every now and then;
it wasn't too long ago that someone even scaled the solid models (STEP,
IGES) and I doubt
we've seen the last of such misguided efforts. I think the CAD model
scaling happened because
someone wanted to use simple shapes (cylinders, rectangular boxes) to
represent everything
and would rather apply a scale for every component than use a better model.
Maybe we should
just say "sorry for breaking your stuff" and drop the scaling.  If there
are any VRML models in the
library which need to be rescaled then we can do that; I wrote a simple
tool to do that years ago
and although I can't find the code now it really wasn't anything difficult
to do; the biggest job would
be identifying which models need to be scaled.  If we drop the scaling
there's nothing we can do
to help the users who rely on it to transform their boxes and cylinder into
all imaginable parts.

Cirilo


On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 3:11 AM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
> wrote:
>
>> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
>> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
>> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
>> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
>> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
>> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
>> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>>
>> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
>> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
>> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>>
>> -Ian
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
>>> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
>>> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
>>> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
>>> the scale limiting.
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
 values?

 Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
 on the models.

 Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
 or should be safe to limit it?

 This is related with this issues:
 https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

 Mario
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> 

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Nick Østergaard]

A solution to this could be go genrate idf models more interactively as
suggested Jon. We already have idfcyl and idfrect as references. I assume
there is no reason to use IDF over STEP as the physical representation.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 21:01, Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> that would work for me too ;)
>
> Mario
>
> 
> From: Jon Evans 
> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:53
> To: Mário Luzeiro
> Cc: Seth Hillbrand; kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>
> Note Altium's solution to the use case of needing "easy basic models": it
> can actually generate the models built-in.
>
> You just specify some parameters and it will generate cylinders, spheres,
> or extruded shapes from a 2D contour.
>
> If we could add this kind of feature in the future, maybe we would not
> need to support "stretching" generic models, as we could just generate the
> right generic model parametrically (without "stretching" a source model)
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Mário Luzeiro  mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
> From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
> I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc)
> and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to
> populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
> This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house
> packages, displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
> I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and
> then export it for CAD purposes.
>
> If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD
> software :/ :)
>
> My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the
> UI and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that
> time, displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for
> CAD.."
>
>
> > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type
> that was supported
>
> Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to
> implement.
> For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
> On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model
> importer code alone and it took some months of work..
>
> Mario
>
> 
> From: Kicad-developers  ua...@lists.launchpad.net<mailto:ua...@lists.launchpad.net>> on behalf of
> Seth Hillbrand mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>
> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
> To: Jon Evans
> Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>
> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect
> if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  j...@craftyjon.com><mailto:j...@craftyjon.com<mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>>>
> wrote:
> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  s...@kipro-pcb.com><mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com<mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
> wrote:
> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney  <mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org><mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>>> wrote:
> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCa

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Rene Pöschl]

Hi,

just to clarify: the 3d models of the official library must be created 
such that the scaling factor in the footprint is set to 1. We are 
currently rewording the whole section to be clearer 
https://gitlab.com/kicad/services/kicad-website/-/merge_requests/502


On 29/09/2020 18:30, Ian McInerney wrote:
We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer 
handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where 
I go OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in 
OpenSCAD because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet 
values are nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor 
of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because 
we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML 
file is in.


In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. 
KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal 
units (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.


-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand > wrote:


There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled,
you should be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic
CAD.  I have come around to this idea and it might be worth
implementing rather than doing the scale limiting.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
positive values?

Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render
issues on the models.

Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
or should be safe to limit it?

This is related with this issues:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

Mario
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*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ 
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.com  i...@kipro-pcb.com


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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Mário Luzeiro]

that would work for me too ;)

Mario


From: Jon Evans 
Sent: 29 September 2020 19:53
To: Mário Luzeiro
Cc: Seth Hillbrand; kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

Note Altium's solution to the use case of needing "easy basic models": it can 
actually generate the models built-in.

You just specify some parameters and it will generate cylinders, spheres, or 
extruded shapes from a 2D contour.

If we could add this kind of feature in the future, maybe we would not need to 
support "stretching" generic models, as we could just generate the right 
generic model parametrically (without "stretching" a source model)

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Mário Luzeiro 
mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc) and 
then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to populate 
the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house packages, 
displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and then 
export it for CAD purposes.

If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD software :/ 
:)

My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the UI 
and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that time, 
displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for CAD.."


> I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type that 
> was supported

Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to implement.
For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model 
importer code alone and it took some months of work..

Mario


From: Kicad-developers 
mailto:ua...@lists.launchpad.net>>
 on behalf of Seth Hillbrand mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>
Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
To: Jon Evans
Cc: 
kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net<mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if we 
were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on support/benefit 
for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.

I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
mailto:j...@craftyjon.com><mailto:j...@craftyjon.com<mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>>>
 wrote:
Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML import 
in the first place.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com><mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com<mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
 wrote:
Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do we 
need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?

In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify non-unity 
scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, 
Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).

-Seth




On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org><mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org<mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>>>
 wrote:
We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle 
proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go OpenSCAD 
-> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes 
for easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely given in mm) and 
then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to make 
it the proper size because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about what 
unit system the VRML file is in.

In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad 
normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units 
(dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com><mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com<mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>>>
 wrote:
There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here altogether.  
The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should be doing this in 
your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come around to this idea and 
it might be worth implementing rather than doing the scale limiting.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro 
mailto:mrluze...@ua.

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Jon Evans]

Note Altium's solution to the use case of needing "easy basic models": it
can actually generate the models built-in.

You just specify some parameters and it will generate cylinders, spheres,
or extruded shapes from a 2D contour.

If we could add this kind of feature in the future, maybe we would not need
to support "stretching" generic models, as we could just generate the right
generic model parametrically (without "stretching" a source model)

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
> I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc)
> and then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to
> populate the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
> This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house
> packages, displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
> I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and
> then export it for CAD purposes.
>
> If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD
> software :/ :)
>
> My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the
> UI and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that
> time, displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for
> CAD.."
>
>
> > I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type
> that was supported
>
> Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to
> implement.
> For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
> On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model
> importer code alone and it took some months of work..
>
> Mario
>
> 
> From: Kicad-developers  ua...@lists.launchpad.net> on behalf of Seth Hillbrand  >
> Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
> To: Jon Evans
> Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?
>
> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect
> if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney  <mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad
> normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>
> -Ian
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand  s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
> the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
> values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on
> the models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be safe to limit

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Mário Luzeiro]

From my user experience: I use the 3 scale values on my projects.
I created unit solids (eg: 1mm cube, 1mm cylinder radius / thickness, etc) and 
then I use it to quickly create shapes (by adjusting X,Y,Z scale) to populate 
the board if I don't have the proper STEP model.
This is helpful to create round buttons, push buttons switch house packages, 
displays (attached is an example I made just using 1mm cubes)
I'm using WRL but I believe it should work if I had used STEP scaled and then 
export it for CAD purposes.

If you remove scale at all, I will need to learn and use a new CAD software :/ 
:)

My suggestion is keep the scale but hide (or disable) it by default on the UI 
and it should only be enabled by clicking on some checkbox, at that time, 
displaying some message to the user "this is not a good idea for CAD.."


> I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the first model type that 
> was supported

Maybe at that time it was created was a very time consuming thing to implement.
For STEP we need a 3rd part library (as it is very complex format).
On the current 3D-Viewer implementation, Cirilo worked alone on the model 
importer code alone and it took some months of work..

Mario


From: Kicad-developers 
 on behalf of 
Seth Hillbrand 
Sent: 29 September 2020 19:01
To: Jon Evans
Cc: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect if we 
were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on support/benefit 
for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.

I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans 
mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>> wrote:
Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML import 
in the first place.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in 
meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do we 
need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?

In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify non-unity 
scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, 
Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).

-Seth




On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle 
proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go OpenSCAD 
-> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes 
for easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely given in mm) and 
then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to make 
it the proper size because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about what 
unit system the VRML file is in.

In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad 
normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units 
(dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here altogether.  
The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should be doing this in 
your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come around to this idea and 
it might be worth implementing rather than doing the scale limiting.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro 
mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
Hi all,

I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive values?

Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on the 
models.

Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
or should be safe to limit it?

This is related with this issues:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

Mario
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Ian McInerney]

The question then becomes, how do we want to do this. Should we remove the
(scale ) s-expr from newly saved footprints and replace it with a units
one? Or do we make this a UI-only change and have the UI compute the
scaling factors that are saved in the file.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 7:02 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect
> if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on
> support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.
>
> I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  wrote:
>
>> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
>> import in the first place.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>>
>>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
 handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
 OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
 because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
 nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
 all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
 hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.

 In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
 KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
 (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

 -Ian

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
 wrote:

> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
> the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
>> positive values?
>>
>> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
>> on the models.
>>
>> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
>> or should be safe to limit it?
>>
>> This is related with this issues:
>> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>>
>> Mario
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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>

>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>>
>>
>
> --
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> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

I've never seen another package use VRML.  Everyone uses STEP.  I suspect
if we were implementing this today, we would look at the tradeoff on
support/benefit for VRML and limit ourselves to STEP as well.

I like Ian's suggestion for unit options.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 10:22 AM Jon Evans  wrote:

> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>
>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
>>> handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
>>> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
>>> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
>>> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
>>> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
>>> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>>>
>>> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
>>> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
>>> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>>>
>>> -Ian
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
 altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
 be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
 around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
 the scale limiting.

 -Seth

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
> positive values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
> on the models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be safe to limit it?
>
> This is related with this issues:
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>
> Mario
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


 --
 [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
 Seth Hillbrand
 *Lead Developer*
 +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
 Davis, CA
 www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
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 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

>>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>

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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Kliment (Future Bits)]

I'd find it a loss if the scaling options were gone - I often end up
using scaling for things like inductors, where there's too much variety
to make a model for each size and height, so I'll often grab a model
with the correct fp and wrong height and scale it.

Kliment

On 29.09.20 19:38, Ian McInerney wrote:
> I am all for removing scaling completely on STEP models - those should
> be properly defined. I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as
> the first model type that was supported, but we shouldn't remove it
> since it is used primarily in the 3D viewer to get better renders.
> 
> We can probably go down to 1 scaling input for VRML models, but why not
> just turn it into a "VRML Units" selection and provide a list of the
> common units and compute the scaling factor from that? That should be
> the only use case when scaling VRML is needed.
> 
> -Ian
> 
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jon Evans  > wrote:
> 
> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow
> VRML import in the first place.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  > wrote:
> 
> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is
> specified in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit
> off in left field.  But do we need three separate scale
> parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
> 
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that
> specify non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3],
> NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO, Fuse_Blad_Mini,
> Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).  
> 
> -Seth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney
> mailto:ian.s.mciner...@ieee.org>> wrote:
> 
> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML
> importer handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run
> into the case where I go OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and
> design a model using mm in OpenSCAD because it makes for
> easier computations (all the datasheet values are nicely
> given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of
> 0.3937 to all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size
> because we seem to have a hardcoded assumption about what
> unit system the VRML file is in.
> 
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute
> dimensions. KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of
> inches and the internal units (dimensionless) of the WRL
> model must be scaled accordingly.
> 
> -Ian
> 
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand
> mailto:s...@kipro-pcb.com>> wrote:
> 
> There has been some discussion to removing the scale
> option here altogether.  The logic being that if you
> need the model scaled, you should be doing this in your
> solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing
> rather than doing the scale limiting.  
> 
> -Seth
> 
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro
> mailto:mrluze...@ua.pt>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of
> shapes to be positive values?
> 
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes
> and render issues on the models.
> 
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative
> scale values?
> or should be safe to limit it?
> 
> This is related with this issues:
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
> 
> Mario
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to     : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> KiCad Services Corporation Logo
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ 
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.com    
> i...@kipro-pcb.com 
> 
> ___
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> Post to     : 

Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Ian McInerney]

I am all for removing scaling completely on STEP models - those should be
properly defined. I'm not sure the history of why VRML was chosen as the
first model type that was supported, but we shouldn't remove it since it is
used primarily in the 3D viewer to get better renders.

We can probably go down to 1 scaling input for VRML models, but why not
just turn it into a "VRML Units" selection and provide a list of the common
units and compute the scaling factor from that? That should be the only use
case when scaling VRML is needed.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 6:22 PM Jon Evans  wrote:

> Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
> import in the first place.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified
>> in meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But
>> do we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>>
>> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
>> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
>> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer
>>> handle proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
>>> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
>>> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
>>> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
>>> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
>>> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>>>
>>> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
>>> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
>>> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>>>
>>> -Ian
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
 altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
 be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
 around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
 the scale limiting.

 -Seth

 On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be
> positive values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
> on the models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be safe to limit it?
>
> This is related with this issues:
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>
> Mario
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


 --
 [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
 Seth Hillbrand
 *Lead Developer*
 +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
 Davis, CA
 www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
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>>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Jon Evans]

Do other EDA tools allow model scaling?  Altium doesn't even allow VRML
import in the first place.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 1:10 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in
> meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do
> we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?
>
> In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
> non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
> Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).
>
> -Seth
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
> wrote:
>
>> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
>> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
>> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
>> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
>> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
>> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
>> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>>
>> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions.
>> KiCad normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
>> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>>
>> -Ian
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
>>> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
>>> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
>>> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
>>> the scale limiting.
>>>
>>> -Seth
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
 values?

 Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues
 on the models.

 Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
 or should be safe to limit it?

 This is related with this issues:
 https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

 Mario
 ___
 Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp

>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>>> Seth Hillbrand
>>> *Lead Developer*
>>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>>> Davis, CA
>>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>
>>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

Well, we've backed ourselves into a bit of a corner.  VRML is specified in
meters, so if we're assuming inches, we're a bit off in left field.  But do
we need three separate scale parameters?  We could reduce to 1, correct?

In the official footprint library, we have 7 footprints that specify
non-unity scaling. (Banana_Jack_[1-3], NS-Tech_Grove_1x04, Fuse_Blade_ATO,
Fuse_Blad_Mini, Oscillator_SMD_TXC0_G158).

-Seth




On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 9:30 AM Ian McInerney 
wrote:

> We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
> proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
> OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
> because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
> nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
> all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
> hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.
>
> In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad
> normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
> (dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.
>
> -Ian
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:
>
>> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
>> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
>> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
>> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
>> the scale limiting.
>>
>> -Seth
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
>>> values?
>>>
>>> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on
>>> the models.
>>>
>>> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
>>> or should be safe to limit it?
>>>
>>> This is related with this issues:
>>> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>>>
>>> Mario
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
>> Seth Hillbrand
>> *Lead Developer*
>> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
>> Davis, CA
>> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>

-- 
[image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
Seth Hillbrand
*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Ian McInerney]

We can't remove the scaling option until we make the VRML importer handle
proper unit selection. I have routinely run into the case where I go
OpenSCAD -> Wings3D -> KiCad and design a model using mm in OpenSCAD
because it makes for easier computations (all the datasheet values are
nicely given in mm) and then have to apply a scaling factor of 0.3937 to
all the axes in KiCad to make it the proper size because we seem to have a
hardcoded assumption about what unit system the VRML file is in.

In fact, the KLC says: WRL files do not specify absolute dimensions. KiCad
normalizes model parameters to units of inches and the internal units
(dimensionless) of the WRL model must be scaled accordingly.

-Ian

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:50 PM Seth Hillbrand  wrote:

> There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
> altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
> be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
> around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
> the scale limiting.
>
> -Seth
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
>> values?
>>
>> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on
>> the models.
>>
>> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
>> or should be safe to limit it?
>>
>> This is related with this issues:
>> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>>
>> Mario
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> --
> [image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
> Seth Hillbrand
> *Lead Developer*
> +1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
> Davis, CA
> www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Seth Hillbrand]

There has been some discussion to removing the scale option here
altogether.  The logic being that if you need the model scaled, you should
be doing this in your solid CAD not in your electronic CAD.  I have come
around to this idea and it might be worth implementing rather than doing
the scale limiting.

-Seth

On Tue, Sep 29, 2020 at 4:52 AM Mário Luzeiro  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive
> values?
>
> Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on
> the models.
>
> Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
> or should be safe to limit it?
>
> This is related with this issues:
> https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817
>
> Mario
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>


-- 
[image: KiCad Services Corporation Logo]
Seth Hillbrand
*Lead Developer*
+1-530-302-5483‬ <+12126039372>
Davis, CA
www.kipro-pcb.comi...@kipro-pcb.com
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[Kicad-developers] 3D-Viewer: limit scale to positive values?

[Mário Luzeiro]

Hi all,

I'm wondering if it is safe to limit the scale of shapes to be positive values?

Applying negative scales will cause inverted shapes and render issues on the 
models.

Could be that anyone in the world is using negative scale values?
or should be safe to limit it?

This is related with this issues:
https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/5817

Mario
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