Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi folks, I will prepare a PR to shorten the macOS Download page while including instructions. This will allow folks who are not macOS users to know the appropriate steps and help out on the forums. It is true that nearly all of our users don't need these instructions, but by putting them only inside the DMG, it means that other folks, while trying be helpful, make a bunch of guesses that muddy the water. By having the instructions on the website, everyone can get guided by the official steps which should help prevent the further spread of "helpful guesses". Thanks for this, everyone. This will result in a better KiCad. Adam On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 12:24 PM Nick Østergaard wrote: > Yes, exactly my point. We already used the 30 seconds of attention span on > the download page trying to help describe the different options for stable > and what versions og macos is supported. > > The user simply need one click to go to the instructions after that one > click needed to open the installer. > > lør. 25. apr. 2020 15.17 skrev Michael Kavanagh < > mich...@michaelkavanagh.me>: > >> I really do not think that is necessary. Anyone who has owned a Mac >> for more than a few hours (the initial install/setup phase) will be >> well acquainted with the process. >> >> The KiCad macOS download page is already a bit "complicated" and >> "confusing" for us "special Mac people". Usually it's just an empty >> page with a big download button ;) >> >> https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/mac/ >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 07:50, Rene Pöschl wrote: >> > >> > Hi again, >> > >> > might it be a good idea to add the content of the Readme to the download >> > page? That way it would bring the Mac download page to the standard of >> > the ubuntu one. (That page also explains the "normal" way to install >> > from a third party source.) Even better would be if screenshots are >> > included as the process is done in a graphical interface. >> > >> > My reasoning here would be that having this info clearly visible without >> > needing to download anything would help anyone that needs to help others >> > install software on any platform. So the forum users, teachers and >> > possibly even the IT guys in companies might benefit from such detailed >> > explanations. >> > >> > I would assume there might be differences depending on Mac version which >> > is why i first ask here instead of just copying the content of adams >> > mail into a pull request on the website repo. >> > >> > On 24/04/2020 17:31, Adam Wolf wrote: >> > > Hi folks, >> > > >> > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. >> > > >> > > I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS >> > > installation looks like, and what ours looks like. >> > > >> > > Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call >> > > it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it >> > > is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run >> > > commands to install KiCad on macOS. >> > > >> > > When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS >> > > packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. >> > > Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like >> > > Zoom just did. >> > > >> > > There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step >> > > by step what to do: >> > > >> > > """ >> > > To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the >> > > targets pointed at by the arrows. >> > > >> > > After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to >> > > authenticate with an administrator username and password. This >> > > installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. >> > > >> > > KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory >> > > called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The >> > > project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you >> > > want to start. >> > > >> > > When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on >> > > them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open >> > > KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone >> > > apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. >> > > """ >> > > >> > > If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I >> > > suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could >> > > install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it >> > > takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a >> > > homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to >> > > install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which >> > > should solve this problem. >> > > >> > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: >> > >> I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of >> installing software, >> > >> which does typically involve
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Yes, exactly my point. We already used the 30 seconds of attention span on the download page trying to help describe the different options for stable and what versions og macos is supported. The user simply need one click to go to the instructions after that one click needed to open the installer. lør. 25. apr. 2020 15.17 skrev Michael Kavanagh : > I really do not think that is necessary. Anyone who has owned a Mac > for more than a few hours (the initial install/setup phase) will be > well acquainted with the process. > > The KiCad macOS download page is already a bit "complicated" and > "confusing" for us "special Mac people". Usually it's just an empty > page with a big download button ;) > > https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/mac/ > > > On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 07:50, Rene Pöschl wrote: > > > > Hi again, > > > > might it be a good idea to add the content of the Readme to the download > > page? That way it would bring the Mac download page to the standard of > > the ubuntu one. (That page also explains the "normal" way to install > > from a third party source.) Even better would be if screenshots are > > included as the process is done in a graphical interface. > > > > My reasoning here would be that having this info clearly visible without > > needing to download anything would help anyone that needs to help others > > install software on any platform. So the forum users, teachers and > > possibly even the IT guys in companies might benefit from such detailed > > explanations. > > > > I would assume there might be differences depending on Mac version which > > is why i first ask here instead of just copying the content of adams > > mail into a pull request on the website repo. > > > > On 24/04/2020 17:31, Adam Wolf wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. > > > > > > I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS > > > installation looks like, and what ours looks like. > > > > > > Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call > > > it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it > > > is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run > > > commands to install KiCad on macOS. > > > > > > When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS > > > packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. > > > Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like > > > Zoom just did. > > > > > > There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step > > > by step what to do: > > > > > > """ > > > To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the > > > targets pointed at by the arrows. > > > > > > After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to > > > authenticate with an administrator username and password. This > > > installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. > > > > > > KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory > > > called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The > > > project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you > > > want to start. > > > > > > When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on > > > them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open > > > KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone > > > apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. > > > """ > > > > > > If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I > > > suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could > > > install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it > > > takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a > > > homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to > > > install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which > > > should solve this problem. > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: > > >> I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of > installing software, > > >> which does typically involve copying files. > > >> > > >> Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted > when you double click it. > > >> > > >> The mounted image then normally contains the software to be > installed, and shortcuts > > >> that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. > > >> > > >> Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a > directory) > > >> That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. > > >> > > >> KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a > privileged location (Application Support), > > >> so the user will be prompted for authentication when they do this > step. > > >> > > >> This part of the approach is not very common for commercial MacOS > software. > > >> Software that must install to privileged locations typicall
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi, Well guys like me could help with things like that if we would have the info required. Which is exactly why i requested documentation on the download page. When the questions were made i looked at the download page and there is nothing (there is also no place in the docu that looked like it could contain info) so i kind of assumed nothing is to be done and everything works like on windows/Linux (my reasoning was that if something is special it would be documented). Which is why i kind of derailed two threads where OSx installation came up instead of being able to help. So consider documentation not necessarily only as a "the user will read it before getting in trouble" but as a "the user or forum members can use the info to get out of the bad situation again". Also remember that if something is not documented by knowledgeable users then it will be documented by somebody who just found some workaround no matter if that workaround is a good idea in general. See On 25/04/2020 14:50, Adam Wolf wrote: Hi folks, I do not believe that the users on that forum are correct about Catalina. You do not need to chmod anything, for instance. I mean this in the kindest way, but I am not sure how to solve the issue of users authoritatively suggesting random things when someone else has a problem :). I do not have the KiCad bandwidth to post on the forum that "if you have to do something that isn't in the README, either it's a bug that should be reported, or you're doing something you don't need to do" but maybe other folks on this list who do enjoy following the forum can help me with that. I am slightly against adding more to the download page, because if users ignore the large text that says "Open the readme for installation instructions", I suspect they're going to ignore a wall of text on the download page and just look for the links and start downloading. It also makes it look like we have a weird, unusual installation process, when our installation process is so typical that the vast majority of Mac users installing our software skip reading any instructions and install it just fine. Because of the lack of notarization, when you install kicad, you have to run the main kicad program first before running things like pcbnew. I have notarization working as of February but some offlist stuff has to get resolved about which certificates I use for public distribution The "you have to run kicad first, once" situation has been the same for 4+ years. We typically get a small handful of complaints a year, and so far they have all been solved with "Please make sure you have run kicad.app once first before running things like pcbnew.app." and then we get a happy "it works!". As I said before, this notarization thing is solved as of early February, but needs a little more organizational support before it can be given to the public. Adam Wolf On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:10 AM Michael Kavanagh mailto:mich...@michaelkavanagh.me>> wrote: Hi Adam, Looks like KiCad already has a Cask: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/blob/master/Casks/kicad.rb. On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 16:32, Adam Wolf mailto:adamw...@feelslikeburning.com>> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. > > I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS > installation looks like, and what ours looks like. > > Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call > it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it > is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run > commands to install KiCad on macOS. > > When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS > packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. > Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like > Zoom just did. > > There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step > by step what to do: > > """ > To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the > targets pointed at by the arrows. > > After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to > authenticate with an administrator username and password. This > installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. > > KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory > called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The > project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you > want to start. > > When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on > them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open > KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone > apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. > """ > > If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I > suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could > install with a single command in
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Carsten, Can you make a PR for the download page that looks like what you want? You seem to understand that users won't read a wall of text on the download page, and any instructions need to be extremely succinct. I would gladly advocate for a good PR for the download page. Adam On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:52 AM Carsten Schoenert wrote: > Hi Nick, > > Am 25.04.20 um 12:58 schrieb Nick Østergaard: > > I don't think we gain anything by adding more complexity to the > > download page. It is after all just a download page. > > I can't follow your reasoning here. Please pick up the users there they > are and not there you think they are. > Writing some good explanations even for the MacOS users isn't that hard > I'd say. > > > If we really need to do very step-by-step and verbose explanations for > > those can't can't read the README in the installer, > > Well, you've wrote "in the installer", so users might have some chicken > / egg problem here. You know you've done it wrong if you have broken it. > It doesn't help users if you say them afterwards they did it wrong, this > something they already know. Writing up same sharped sentences for MacOS > users on the Download page what they need to do right before they start > to download anything is better. Try to have a view from a users point of > view who hasn't done any thing with KiCad before. We all here are quit > deep in the software, project and so on and know how everything is > working, but think back to the days once you started with KiCad. > > > I think that is better suited in a chapter of the documentation, > > possible as a big section in the Getting Started in KiCad doc. Having > > it in the documentation will also make it easier to translate. > For sure this is some useful thing, but do you really think *most* of > the users do really read some bigger documentation first before they > install some software? :-) > You only have about 20-30 seconds off attention if people land on the > Download page (or any other web page). So better you remember this > always and try to transfer the needed knowledge within that time span. > But its' easy to point to the relevant part of documentation there you > can explain things more in deep. > > > Also, don't forget that as it is now works for all other people, than > > a small handful of people. We can't help everyone always. > > The smaller part of people or users that aren't satisfied can make some > bigger damage on a project than the broader "normal" audience. So try to > keep this one group of people, that you will never serve completely, > always small as possible. > > -- > Regards > Carsten Schoenert > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi Nick, Am 25.04.20 um 12:58 schrieb Nick Østergaard: I don't think we gain anything by adding more complexity to the download page. It is after all just a download page. I can't follow your reasoning here. Please pick up the users there they are and not there you think they are. Writing some good explanations even for the MacOS users isn't that hard I'd say. If we really need to do very step-by-step and verbose explanations for those can't can't read the README in the installer, Well, you've wrote "in the installer", so users might have some chicken / egg problem here. You know you've done it wrong if you have broken it. It doesn't help users if you say them afterwards they did it wrong, this something they already know. Writing up same sharped sentences for MacOS users on the Download page what they need to do right before they start to download anything is better. Try to have a view from a users point of view who hasn't done any thing with KiCad before. We all here are quit deep in the software, project and so on and know how everything is working, but think back to the days once you started with KiCad. I think that is better suited in a chapter of the documentation, possible as a big section in the Getting Started in KiCad doc. Having it in the documentation will also make it easier to translate. For sure this is some useful thing, but do you really think *most* of the users do really read some bigger documentation first before they install some software? :-) You only have about 20-30 seconds off attention if people land on the Download page (or any other web page). So better you remember this always and try to transfer the needed knowledge within that time span. But its' easy to point to the relevant part of documentation there you can explain things more in deep. Also, don't forget that as it is now works for all other people, than a small handful of people. We can't help everyone always. The smaller part of people or users that aren't satisfied can make some bigger damage on a project than the broader "normal" audience. So try to keep this one group of people, that you will never serve completely, always small as possible. -- Regards Carsten Schoenert ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi folks, I do not believe that the users on that forum are correct about Catalina. You do not need to chmod anything, for instance. I mean this in the kindest way, but I am not sure how to solve the issue of users authoritatively suggesting random things when someone else has a problem :). I do not have the KiCad bandwidth to post on the forum that "if you have to do something that isn't in the README, either it's a bug that should be reported, or you're doing something you don't need to do" but maybe other folks on this list who do enjoy following the forum can help me with that. I am slightly against adding more to the download page, because if users ignore the large text that says "Open the readme for installation instructions", I suspect they're going to ignore a wall of text on the download page and just look for the links and start downloading. It also makes it look like we have a weird, unusual installation process, when our installation process is so typical that the vast majority of Mac users installing our software skip reading any instructions and install it just fine. Because of the lack of notarization, when you install kicad, you have to run the main kicad program first before running things like pcbnew. I have notarization working as of February but some offlist stuff has to get resolved about which certificates I use for public distribution The "you have to run kicad first, once" situation has been the same for 4+ years. We typically get a small handful of complaints a year, and so far they have all been solved with "Please make sure you have run kicad.app once first before running things like pcbnew.app." and then we get a happy "it works!". As I said before, this notarization thing is solved as of early February, but needs a little more organizational support before it can be given to the public. Adam Wolf On Sat, Apr 25, 2020, 7:10 AM Michael Kavanagh wrote: > Hi Adam, > > Looks like KiCad already has a Cask: > https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/blob/master/Casks/kicad.rb. > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 16:32, Adam Wolf > wrote: > > > > Hi folks, > > > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. > > > > I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS > > installation looks like, and what ours looks like. > > > > Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call > > it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it > > is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run > > commands to install KiCad on macOS. > > > > When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS > > packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. > > Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like > > Zoom just did. > > > > There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step > > by step what to do: > > > > """ > > To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the > > targets pointed at by the arrows. > > > > After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to > > authenticate with an administrator username and password. This > > installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. > > > > KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory > > called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The > > project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you > > want to start. > > > > When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on > > them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open > > KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone > > apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. > > """ > > > > If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I > > suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could > > install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it > > takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a > > homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to > > install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which > > should solve this problem. > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: > > > > > > I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of > installing software, > > > which does typically involve copying files. > > > > > > Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted > when you double click it. > > > > > > The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, > and shortcuts > > > that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. > > > > > > Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a > directory) > > > That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. > > > > > > KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a > privileged location (Application S
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi Adam, Looks like KiCad already has a Cask: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-cask/blob/master/Casks/kicad.rb. On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 16:32, Adam Wolf wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. > > I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS > installation looks like, and what ours looks like. > > Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call > it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it > is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run > commands to install KiCad on macOS. > > When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS > packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. > Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like > Zoom just did. > > There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step > by step what to do: > > """ > To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the > targets pointed at by the arrows. > > After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to > authenticate with an administrator username and password. This > installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. > > KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory > called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The > project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you > want to start. > > When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on > them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open > KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone > apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. > """ > > If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I > suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could > install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it > takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a > homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to > install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which > should solve this problem. > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: > > > > I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of > > installing software, > > which does typically involve copying files. > > > > Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted when > > you double click it. > > > > The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, and > > shortcuts > > that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. > > > > Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a > > directory) > > That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. > > > > KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a privileged > > location (Application Support), > > so the user will be prompted for authentication when they do this step. > > > > This part of the approach is not very common for commercial MacOS software. > > Software that must install to privileged locations typically ships as a > > binary installer with a wizard, > > more like what you would typically see on a Windows machine. > > > > I am not familiar enough with the MacOS packaging to know if there is any > > potential for KiCad > > to have a single app file that just gets copied to Applications in the > > future. > > > > If we want to do fancy things such as write-protecting certain parts, > > probably the best bet would be to build a MacOS installer wizard (a PKG > > file). > > But, I don't know the details there either or if there are reasons we > > cannot / should not. > > > > -Jon > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rene Pöschl wrote: > >> > >> Hi all but especially adam, > >> > >> > >> lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac > >> came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually > >> copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users > >> seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am > >> now starting to believe them. > >> > >> If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented > >> very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate > >> this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better > >> way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what > >> needs to be copied. > >> > >> One problem i see is if users can copy KiCad files then the libs might > >> not be write protected which would be a problem as KiCad relies on the > >> operating system write protection to avoid users modifying the shipped > >> libraries. > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > >> Unsubscribe : http
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
I don't think we gain anything by adding more complexity to the download page. It is after all just a download page. If we really need to do very step-by-step and verbose explanations for those can't can't read the README in the installer, I think that is better suited in a chapter of the documentation, possible as a big section in the Getting Started in KiCad doc. Having it in the documentation will also make it easier to translate. Also, don't forget that as it is now works for all other people, than a small handful of people. We can't help everyone always. On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 09:31, Rene Pöschl wrote: > > And again, > > Sorry forgot to add this. There seem to be some problems for some users > on Catalina. I am not sure if what got suggested on the forum [1] is the > correct way to install KiCad on Catalina. Would be great if somebody > knowledgeable would double check the proposed solutions and possibly > clarify the exact workflow. I think it would then be beneficial if that > cleaned up info would also be found on the Mac download page. > > [1]: https://forum.kicad.info/t/solved-kicad-on-catalina/22189 > > On 25/04/2020 08:50, Rene Pöschl wrote: > > Hi again, > > > > might it be a good idea to add the content of the Readme to the download > > page? That way it would bring the Mac download page to the standard of > > the ubuntu one. (That page also explains the "normal" way to install > > from a third party source.) Even better would be if screenshots are > > included as the process is done in a graphical interface. > > > > My reasoning here would be that having this info clearly visible without > > needing to download anything would help anyone that needs to help others > > install software on any platform. So the forum users, teachers and > > possibly even the IT guys in companies might benefit from such detailed > > explanations. > > > > I would assume there might be differences depending on Mac version which > > is why i first ask here instead of just copying the content of adams > > mail into a pull request on the website repo. > > > > On 24/04/2020 17:31, Adam Wolf wrote: > >> Hi folks, > >> > >> Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. > >> > >> I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS > >> installation looks like, and what ours looks like. > >> > >> Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call > >> it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it > >> is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run > >> commands to install KiCad on macOS. > >> > >> When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS > >> packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. > >> Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like > >> Zoom just did. > >> > >> There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step > >> by step what to do: > >> > >> """ > >> To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the > >> targets pointed at by the arrows. > >> > >> After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to > >> authenticate with an administrator username and password. This > >> installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. > >> > >> KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory > >> called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The > >> project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you > >> want to start. > >> > >> When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on > >> them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open > >> KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone > >> apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. > >> """ > >> > >> If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I > >> suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could > >> install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it > >> takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a > >> homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to > >> install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which > >> should solve this problem. > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: > >>> I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of > >>> installing software, > >>> which does typically involve copying files. > >>> > >>> Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted when > >>> you double click it. > >>> > >>> The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, > >>> and shortcuts > >>> that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. > >>> > >>> Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a > >>> directory) > >>> That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. > >>> > >>> KiCad's installation al
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
And again, Sorry forgot to add this. There seem to be some problems for some users on Catalina. I am not sure if what got suggested on the forum [1] is the correct way to install KiCad on Catalina. Would be great if somebody knowledgeable would double check the proposed solutions and possibly clarify the exact workflow. I think it would then be beneficial if that cleaned up info would also be found on the Mac download page. [1]: https://forum.kicad.info/t/solved-kicad-on-catalina/22189 On 25/04/2020 08:50, Rene Pöschl wrote: Hi again, might it be a good idea to add the content of the Readme to the download page? That way it would bring the Mac download page to the standard of the ubuntu one. (That page also explains the "normal" way to install from a third party source.) Even better would be if screenshots are included as the process is done in a graphical interface. My reasoning here would be that having this info clearly visible without needing to download anything would help anyone that needs to help others install software on any platform. So the forum users, teachers and possibly even the IT guys in companies might benefit from such detailed explanations. I would assume there might be differences depending on Mac version which is why i first ask here instead of just copying the content of adams mail into a pull request on the website repo. On 24/04/2020 17:31, Adam Wolf wrote: Hi folks, Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS installation looks like, and what ours looks like. Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run commands to install KiCad on macOS. When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like Zoom just did. There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step by step what to do: """ To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the targets pointed at by the arrows. After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to authenticate with an administrator username and password. This installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you want to start. When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. """ If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which should solve this problem. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of installing software, which does typically involve copying files. Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted when you double click it. The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, and shortcuts that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a directory) That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a privileged location (Application Support), so the user will be prompted for authentication when they do this step. This part of the approach is not very common for commercial MacOS software. Software that must install to privileged locations typically ships as a binary installer with a wizard, more like what you would typically see on a Windows machine. I am not familiar enough with the MacOS packaging to know if there is any potential for KiCad to have a single app file that just gets copied to Applications in the future. If we want to do fancy things such as write-protecting certain parts, probably the best bet would be to build a MacOS installer wizard (a PKG file). But, I don't know the details there either or if there are reasons we cannot / should not. -Jon On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rene Pöschl wrote: Hi all but especially adam, lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac came up. The users reported that they installe
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi again, might it be a good idea to add the content of the Readme to the download page? That way it would bring the Mac download page to the standard of the ubuntu one. (That page also explains the "normal" way to install from a third party source.) Even better would be if screenshots are included as the process is done in a graphical interface. My reasoning here would be that having this info clearly visible without needing to download anything would help anyone that needs to help others install software on any platform. So the forum users, teachers and possibly even the IT guys in companies might benefit from such detailed explanations. I would assume there might be differences depending on Mac version which is why i first ask here instead of just copying the content of adams mail into a pull request on the website repo. On 24/04/2020 17:31, Adam Wolf wrote: Hi folks, Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Rene. I have attached two images, one showing what "normal" macOS installation looks like, and what ours looks like. Our situation is not very far from normal and I would hesitate to call it "manual" copying. I do not know what they're talking about, but it is not correct that you need to use a terminal or something to run commands to install KiCad on macOS. When we surveyed users ~5 years ago when I revamped the macOS packaging, users were overwhelmingly in favor of this method vs a pkg. Pkgs have a bad reputation for doing bad stuff to your system--like Zoom just did. There is also a README right when you open the DMG that explains step by step what to do: """ To install KiCad, click and drag the two directory icons to the targets pointed at by the arrows. After dropping kicad onto Application Support, you may be asked to authenticate with an administrator username and password. This installs the support files for KiCad for all users on the system. KiCad is now installed! Inside of /Applications will be a directory called KiCad, and inside of that are all the programs in KiCad. The project manager is the one labeled kicad, and is probably where you want to start. When you open the KiCad apps the first time, you must right-click on them and select Open. You only need to do this once. You must open KiCad first before opening the standalone apps, or else the standalone apps won't be able to open up due to macOS quarantining. """ If someone wants to write a homebrew cask for using the mac DMG, I suspect it would only be an hour or so total, and then users could install with a single command in just a few minutes (however long it takes to download the DMG). Previously, another developer made a homebrew recipe but it did not have a bottle, so it took hours to install on a user's computers. This was before homebrew casks which should solve this problem. On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 9:35 AM Jon Evans wrote: I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of installing software, which does typically involve copying files. Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted when you double click it. The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, and shortcuts that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a directory) That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a privileged location (Application Support), so the user will be prompted for authentication when they do this step. This part of the approach is not very common for commercial MacOS software. Software that must install to privileged locations typically ships as a binary installer with a wizard, more like what you would typically see on a Windows machine. I am not familiar enough with the MacOS packaging to know if there is any potential for KiCad to have a single app file that just gets copied to Applications in the future. If we want to do fancy things such as write-protecting certain parts, probably the best bet would be to build a MacOS installer wizard (a PKG file). But, I don't know the details there either or if there are reasons we cannot / should not. -Jon On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rene Pöschl wrote: Hi all but especially adam, lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am now starting to believe them. If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what needs to be copied. One problem i see is if users
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Just a small comment. The windows that Adam attached are actually Finder, the file explorer thing on macos, that is stylized as part of the Disk Image file (.dmg). Hence, when the user do the "drag the KiCad folder to Applications" it is just a normal file copy. It just happens that apple peeps "like" to drag things instead of clicking next. On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 17:35, Michael Kavanagh wrote: > > This is completely standard. Infact, the .pkg installers that Jon > mentioned are in my experience very rare (only Microsoft Office and > MatLab initially spring to mind). > > On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 15:22, Rene Pöschl wrote: > > > > Hi all but especially adam, > > > > > > lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac > > came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually > > copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users > > seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am > > now starting to believe them. > > > > If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented > > very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate > > this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better > > way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what > > needs to be copied. > > > > One problem i see is if users can copy KiCad files then the libs might > > not be write protected which would be a problem as KiCad relies on the > > operating system write protection to avoid users modifying the shipped > > libraries. > > > > > > ___ > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
This is completely standard. Infact, the .pkg installers that Jon mentioned are in my experience very rare (only Microsoft Office and MatLab initially spring to mind). On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 15:22, Rene Pöschl wrote: > > Hi all but especially adam, > > > lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac > came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually > copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users > seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am > now starting to believe them. > > If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented > very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate > this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better > way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what > needs to be copied. > > One problem i see is if users can copy KiCad files then the libs might > not be write protected which would be a problem as KiCad relies on the > operating system write protection to avoid users modifying the shipped > libraries. > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
I believe these users are talking about the normal MacOS method of installing software, which does typically involve copying files. Normally MacOS software is packaged as a disk image that is mounted when you double click it. The mounted image then normally contains the software to be installed, and shortcuts that are used as drop targets for a "drag and drop" copy. Most software only has one "file" (the .app file, which is actually a directory) That file is copied to the Applications folder on the user's system. KiCad's installation also involves copying a second folder to a privileged location (Application Support), so the user will be prompted for authentication when they do this step. This part of the approach is not very common for commercial MacOS software. Software that must install to privileged locations typically ships as a binary installer with a wizard, more like what you would typically see on a Windows machine. I am not familiar enough with the MacOS packaging to know if there is any potential for KiCad to have a single app file that just gets copied to Applications in the future. If we want to do fancy things such as write-protecting certain parts, probably the best bet would be to build a MacOS installer wizard (a PKG file). But, I don't know the details there either or if there are reasons we cannot / should not. -Jon On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rene Pöschl wrote: > Hi all but especially adam, > > > lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac > came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually > copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users > seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am > now starting to believe them. > > If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented > very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate > this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better > way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what > needs to be copied. > > One problem i see is if users can copy KiCad files then the libs might > not be write protected which would be a problem as KiCad relies on the > operating system write protection to avoid users modifying the shipped > libraries. > > > ___ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Kicad-developers] Is it really the case that installing KiCad on a Mac requires manually copying files around?
Hi all but especially adam, lately there where a few threads on the forum where installation on Mac came up. The users reported that they installed KiCad by manually copying files around which sounded wrong to me. But as a lot of users seem to be under the impression that this is indeed the right way i am now starting to believe them. If these users are really correct then maybe this should be documented very clearly on our download page. Or if there is any option to automate this process (reducing human error) then maybe this would be the better way to go long term but until then it should still be documented what needs to be copied. One problem i see is if users can copy KiCad files then the libs might not be write protected which would be a problem as KiCad relies on the operating system write protection to avoid users modifying the shipped libraries. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
