KR> aileron linkage
Alright Guys, come to my rescue. Am I overlooking what the aileron linkage is made of in the plans ? What do you make the outside linkage that hooks directly to the aileron out of ? I need to get the linkages to know how much to notch out the stub and main wing. Thanks. Mike Sylvester kr2s builder Birmingham,AL. Cell no.205-966-3854
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
Gentlemen, With an attempt not to keep beating on the horse I would like to highlight a couple of things David wrote in his email (which I did not copy in it's entirety here to save space...reread his email.) Number one is that the NTSB did not publish a complete accident investigation which determined the exact cause of the crash, and since no one was killed, will probably not actually conduct a complete investigation to "Standard". So you can speculate all you want about the cause based on what the "Preliminary Report" implies, or based on what the media reported, or you can base your speculations on David's "eyewitness" account. Since David was not at the controls, even as an "eyewitness" he can not be expected to have known exactly what the PIC was thinking or telling his hands on the controls to do at the time. Has anybody ever talked to police investigators about how completely skewed eyewitness accounts can be. Still, as an experienced pilot trained by the military as an instructor and accident investigator, I trust David to have been paying pretty good attention to what was actually transpiring at the time of the mishap. So I would put a lot of weight on his Account being a fairly accurate depiction of the event. The Second thing I would like to highlight is David's comments about KR Handling characteristics and flying them in general. I have flown a couple of KR2s. I don't have the experience David, or a lot of you other guys have with them by flying multiple versions, but I have yet to experience this instability or twitchiness that is constantly being referred to, but even with close to 8000 hours of flight time I wouldn't consider jumping into any aircraft (even a cessna 152) that I had never flown before and attempting to fly it alone. So just like I would do with any other unknown aircraft, I chose to fly first with an experienced KR2 pilot before flying my own KR2. He carefully prepared me for the worst, and explained what to expect and how to recover from "pilot induced oscillations", then sat back and chuckled when he gave me the controls. I asked him a few minutes after taking the controls when to expect the "wierdness" to happen and he had to take the controls back and put in some major inputs to simulate and demonstrate for me what everyone was talking about. I still haven't figured out how to make the airplane do that, but will take everyone's word for it that some folks are ham fisted. The key point here being that "ham fisted" or not, why would anyone not get checked out in an unknown airplane before soloing in it? Sorry for being long winded.Just like all you builders use the wisdom of the genius aeronautical engineering types (like Mark Langford, etc.) to keep from having to learn building techniques the hard way, David Goodman has graciously offered up his expertise as an instructor. Pick his brain about flying KR2s and if you can get to him, let him fly with you, before you have to learn flying techniques the hard way (like by having to practice your building techniques again due to airframe damage.) Todd Thelin Spanaway, WA In a message dated 10/11/2010 9:44:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dgood...@verticalavionics.com writes: Guys, I was in this airplane when it crashed. If you want to know what happened... There are more photos and write-up of the mishap aircraft at: http://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/goodmans/Home/2010-kr2-mishap If you have questions about flying a KR for the first time, call me as well. I will spend however much time you need or want to help you get ready for that first flight. IHS, David Goodman Vertical Avionics, Inc. www.verticalavionics.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
Guys, I was in this airplane when it crashed. If you want to know what happened you are NOT going to find it in the pixels of an NTSB or FAA report. If fact relying on either an FAA or NTSB report for details on anything other than a commercial or high interest (national media coverage) mishap is a colossal mistake. Facts everyone needs to know about this mishap, mishap investigations, and the KR2 in general. - The current NTSB report is a PRELIMINARY REPORT. It says so right in the first box. Most of the information they used was given to them by me, from the back of an ambulance enroute to UC Davis Medical Center 30 minutes after the mishap. If you contact the NTSB about a mishap, they will go down a 40 question form with you. It is amazing how many facts I gave them they either got wrong, or chose to word incorrectly. We will have to wait and see what the final report says, but so far, more than half of the "facts" in the PRELIMINARY REPORT are simply incorrect. Understand something about the NTSB. They took my phone call, got a statement from Jim (PIC), looked at the plane for less than 45 minutes, and wrote a preliminary report. The NTSB does not "investigate" mishaps of this nature other than to assess if they need to investigate it. Since there was no indication of failure of the aircraft (controls, engine, linkages) and no fatality (thankfully) they neither care nor desire to spend any more time on such mishaps. No threat to the public, no media interest nationally, no further involvement or brain power expended by them. They have other, better, ways of maximizing the consumption of your taxpayer dollars. As a military trained and experienced mishap investigator I can tell you the amount of time spent on a mishap scene is directly reflected in the accuracy of the report of findings. Do not hang your hat, or your biases, on a "report" that has so little time invested in investigation. Just analyzing what happened to the nose strut should have taken more time than the NTSB spent total, if one wants to actually know what happened. A trained mishap investigator can tell you what angle the plane impacted in pitch and roll, what the vertical vector into the ground was (which will give the plane's airspeed), and a host of other information, just from the nose strut. 45 minutes total at the scene? Translating this statement to other KR mishaps: They may get parts of a given mishap correct and they may be enroute to Pluto or points beyond on others. Do not define your opinions by these reports. - There was nothing twitchy or overly sensitive about Jim's plane. It was a well balanced, solid-responding plane. I had more hours in it than anyone else (12.1) and I had zero problem with the flight characteristics of this aircraft. If there had been any issues with it handling qualities, my logbook would have reflected a .1 total time in flight, just enough time to circle to land and walk away. The plane responded to the inputs it received. Jim's craftsmanship was very evident in how this plane flew. The KR design is responsive, not sensitive. This may seem like semantics, but there is a very big difference. Most people are used to flying aircraft with the responsiveness of a 18-wheeler, i.e., a Cessna 150 or Piper 140. These planes are totally forgiving of pilot errors because they are trainer airplanes. The KR pedigree does not behave this way. Simply put, if you fly a KR with the same heavy handedness most pilots fly with, you are going for Mr. Toad's wild ride. I flew with two other pilots in Jim's KR, once each in the left and right seat. One was an ATP, the other a commercial pilot. Neither chose to fly in the plane again. Both made some of the classic mistakes new pilots to the KR make, and it was "exciting" to be in the right seat with both of them. The intent was they would finish the test phase of flying the plane, but they declined. The ATP pilot actually told someone this was the only plane he had ever flown that scared him, an unfortunate observation, but not a knock against the KR. His comfort level remains in 18-wheelers. Before anyone flies the KR for the first time alone it is my STRONG opinion they need to fly with someone else in a KR first. I also submit one should spend some time talking to someone who knows a good deal about how the KR handles relative to other aircraft. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE people who have most or all of their time in the KR, as they will miss a great deal of the difference that needs to be explained to a new KR pilot. This is not a cut down, it is simply their familiarity and comfort with the KR platform may cause them to skip key factors a new KR person needs to know about. If you spent a few years building something you are proud enough to go airborne in, take the extra bit of time to get ready to fly it the right way, by/with someone who can help you. If you cannot find anyone else to talk to, give Bill Clapp or I a call.
KR> Jeffery Scott N1213W
Hello Group, Is Jeffrey Scott of Los Alamos, NM in the group? If not does anyone know how to contact him. I am wanting to ask a couple of questions about his KR2S N1213W. Victor Taylor velocityo...@yahoo.com
KR> kr2 accident
What if it were true that the pilot had 50 years of flying experience and several hundred hours in the very same plane. Would you still suggest pitch sensitivity?? There are many other possible causes for this accident and many of us older (over seventy ) pilots would concludeoops, that was sloppy of me!! Seldom would we blame the plane, unless of course we were lawyers! I wonder how often we have mishaps and they never get reported. I know of many as well as my own. Just pick up the broken parts and bring it back home, I suppose tho, if the broken part were me, it would soon enough get reported. - Original Message - From: "Craig Williams" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:01 AM Subject: KR> kr2 accident > according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the > problem > > http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> kr2 accident
How about OVER CONTROLLING on the part of the pilot? Virg On 10/11/2010 5:01 AM, Craig Williams wrote: > according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the > problem > > http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> Re: Stub Wings - Plywood Skin
The project that I have has plywood covered stub wings but I can find no mention of this in the plans. Was this ever considered an acceptable option? The answer to the above probably doesn't matter as I do not care for the quality of construction so am going to remove and reconstruct the stub wing skin. However; knowing the answer might make me feel better while tearing them apart! J Jon Finley N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx ++ As suggested by Tony Bingeles, I put a 1/4-inch plywood wing walk, 6 X 12 inches, on the top of the stub wings next to the fuselage, level with the aft spar, on each side then covered that with fiberglass over the plywood, foam and spars for the rest of the stub wing. Except for the firm spot and "step here" the wing walk is invisible. Sid Wood Tri-gear KR-2 N6242 Mechanicsville, MD, USA smw...@md.metrocast.net
KR> kr2 accident
My bad for believing the FAA guy in the article reporting that the aircraft bounced several times. I looked up the preliminary NTSB report and it does not mention any bouncing. --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Dan Heath wrote: From: Dan Heath Subject: RE: KR> kr2 accident To: "'KRnet'" List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 9:33 AM Old news. A very good write-up was done on this by the passenger. Pitch sensitivity is not the issue here. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2011 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN There is a time for building and it never seems to end. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> kr2 accident
Old news. A very good write-up was done on this by the passenger. Pitch sensitivity is not the issue here. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2011 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN There is a time for building and it never seems to end. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem
KR> Stub Wings - Plywood Skin
It is very much an option tho I do not know if others have done any more than consider it. We have to realize that it is more than a skin change. It will require different and more ribs. It does not lend itself to sculpting has we do on the Rand wings and of course we have to consider the increased difficulty of cutting out wells for the retract and even the wing mounted fixed gear. I have recently helped my son to complete a wood wing for his Cassut. While no more difficult to do than a composite, it was tedious making the ribswhile very much easier to sand, prime and paint. Pat > > -Original Message- > > Was this ever considered an acceptable > option? > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> kr2 accident
according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html
KR> Vinyl Ester
Yeah, I was in the Canard group for years CSA etc...I had a Leze project Here's an old post by Canard Epoxy Guru 'Gary Hunter', works for Shell Oil in Epoxies>>> All the suppliers claim their "structural resins" are suitable for fuel containment. And, they are - IF - the builder knows how to go about it and does everything correctly. I have always been adamant about "post curing" epoxies, especially the fuel tank. You can't buy cheaper insurance. Safe-T-Poxy I or now EZ-Poxy 87 is probably by far the best in this category, with or without a post cure. Chemical resistance is one of the prime attributes of epoxies beyond homebuilding airplanes. They are used for building fiberglass chemical storage tanks and piping and for lining of steel tanks to prevent corrosion. In that industry the curing agent "type" governs the degree of chemical resistance. Aromatic amines are by far the best known curing agent type for overall chemical resistance - particularly in fuels, solvents and strong acids. EZ-Poxy 87 is the only aromatic amine curing agent available to the homebuilt world. Next in line are "aliphatic amines". The original RAES & RAEF were "modified" aliphatic amines. However, according to my tests the RAES without a post cure was absolutely no good for fuel and marginal with. But, the RAEF without a post cure was marginal and did just fine with a post cure. Thus, the original Vari-Eze plans mandated RAEF for the fuel tanks. Next in line are "cycloaliphatic" amines. Aeropoxy, MGS, Proset, and EZ-Poxy 83 & 84 are "blends of modified aliphatic and cycloaliphatic amine adducts". Modified - because the straight stuff has bad cure behavior. Some modifications work out better than others. A prime example is the Aeropoxy's sensitivity to temperature and moisture. I call these "quirky cure characteristics". However, even the "quirkiest" of these curing agents will resist fuel - IF - they are properly applied and fully post cured. DO NOT simply brush the resin on the inside surface of the already cured fuel tank and expect it to cure like a 2 or 4 ply lay-up. This is where the screen plugging flakes of epoxy come from. Your original layups for all the inside tank components should be "wet" so to be certain there are no dry spots, pinholes or voids. This is no place to be too concerned about weight. Even the BID tapes in the corners should be nice and wet. Peel ply only were secondary bonds will be needed. For those of you than like the smooth surface of peel plying - add an extra final ply of a fine weave light weight fiberglass deck cloth. It will give you a similar smooth surface without introducing or hiding voids. Warm shop temperatures and low humidity will reduce the curing agents "quirk" factor. There are many ways to obtain a post cure on the tank. Before the tops are put on, you can use heat lamps to cure the inside surfaces. You can pre-post cure the inside surface of the top too. After the top is bonded in place you can post cure these bonds by heating the exterior surface with heat lamps. The heat will work its way to the bonds. OR, after the top of the tank is bonded on, you can circulate warm air through the tank for several hours. I did this with the outlet end of my vacuum cleaner inserted in to the fuel cap opening. About 140F is sufficient. RULE OF THUMB - If you can hold your hand on the surface to the count of 10 - the temperature is 140F or below. Hope this is helps. Gary Hunter EAA Technical Counselor Vari-Eze N235GH
