KR> KR2 accident
Damage: Destroyed LOCATION City: LUDLOW State: CA Country: US DESCRIPTION AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1 PERSON ON BOARD WAS FATALLY INJURED, AIRCRAFT WAS THE SUBJECT OF AN ALERT NOTICE, WRECKAGE LOCATED 2 MILES FROM HECTOR NEAR LUDLOW, CA INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1 # Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER FAA FSDO: RIVERSIDE, CA (WP21) Entry date: 03/10/2011 Preliminary data on KR2 crash. Steve Bennett ifly...@msn.com
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
Netters, To answer the question on my collapsed news gear. It was a standard Diehl metal nose gear that was sold for the VW powered standard KR. It really survived the first hard hit but the second hit was much harder. It bent just below the upper socket that it fits into., Also it bent back about half way down the gear leg. We slid down the runway on the lower bend and almost ware through it. The nose wheel turned 180 degrees after we went off the pavement and into the dirt. It sheared off the nose gear stops that were to keep it from going to far around. There isn't any damage to the tire, wheel, the aluminum casting or the fire wall. I'm impressed with how strong the wooden KR fuselage is! The Diehl gear comes with a socket fitting that bolts to the firewall and also to the lower motor mount. It doesn't show any damage. The only damage to the (home made) motor mount is from the acid that ran out of the battery vent tube. and messed up my paint job job on the motor mount. The vertical tail was snapped off. I have removed the elevator and carved out the two spars. I have enough foam to make the new vertical and rudder. After I get my Spruce order I will get on it. David Goodman's E-mail with the pictures of my KR gives you a good look ot the bent nose gear. Be safe everone, Jim Morehead N522PC (will fly again!) --- On Tue, 10/12/10, David Goodman <dgood...@verticalavionics.com> wrote: From: David Goodman <dgood...@verticalavionics.com> Subject: RE: KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 3:14 PM KrNetters, Ted wrote: Could you elaborate on the nose gear that collapsed? Where did it fail? Whose nose gear was it? Diehl? He has two, a standard and a Corvair version (don't know the difference). Do any recommendations come out of this incident regarding the mounting of the nose gear? Jim Morehead was the builder of this plane, so he final authority on the nose gear. It appeared to me to be a standard (VW) Diehl system. As far as where it folded, you can take a look at link http://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/goodmans/Home/2010-kr2-mishap. There is a good photo from the side of just the nose gear located there. We hit extremely hard on the nose on the first bounce. I could not tell you how hard the second hit was compared to the first, as my eyes were completely uncaged for about one second after the first impact. What I can tell you is the gear did not shatter until after the second impact nose-first of the plane onto the runway. I know this because though my eyes were uncaged I could still see the prop shatter on the second hit. That the landing gear withstood the first impact is a testimony to the Diehl gear's solid design. Having nose-planted my own plane three years ago on a Corvair-weight gear (which bent, but did not fail) and last year taking that same strut off-roading at 35 KTS off a runway in California the Diehl gear is superb. In both my excursions outside the norm I took the strut to a muffler shop and had it bent back out ~15 degrees or so... good as new. A safety plug (again) for those new to the plane. My own first bent strut came from an inadvertent takeoff during high speed taxi. I pushed the nose over (1/16 to 1/4 inch stick forward) and came crashing down on the nose. The second came on a landing in very rough weather and one of my brake pistons failed. Not able to stop, I bled as much speed off as I could before the end of the runway. Nothing I could do about it, but the strut held again, though I dug a good sized furrow with the nose tire in the soft dirt. Sorry for the long answer. If you need more data, let me know and I can e-mail you privately. IHS, David Goodman Vertical Avionics, Inc. www.verticalavionics.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
KrNetters, Ted wrote: Could you elaborate on the nose gear that collapsed? Where did it fail? Whose nose gear was it? Diehl? He has two, a standard and a Corvair version (don't know the difference). Do any recommendations come out of this incident regarding the mounting of the nose gear? Jim Morehead was the builder of this plane, so he final authority on the nose gear. It appeared to me to be a standard (VW) Diehl system. As far as where it folded, you can take a look at link http://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/goodmans/Home/2010-kr2-mishap. There is a good photo from the side of just the nose gear located there. We hit extremely hard on the nose on the first bounce. I could not tell you how hard the second hit was compared to the first, as my eyes were completely uncaged for about one second after the first impact. What I can tell you is the gear did not shatter until after the second impact nose-first of the plane onto the runway. I know this because though my eyes were uncaged I could still see the prop shatter on the second hit. That the landing gear withstood the first impact is a testimony to the Diehl gear's solid design. Having nose-planted my own plane three years ago on a Corvair-weight gear (which bent, but did not fail) and last year taking that same strut off-roading at 35 KTS off a runway in California the Diehl gear is superb. In both my excursions outside the norm I took the strut to a muffler shop and had it bent back out ~15 degrees or so... good as new. A safety plug (again) for those new to the plane. My own first bent strut came from an inadvertent takeoff during high speed taxi. I pushed the nose over (1/16 to 1/4 inch stick forward) and came crashing down on the nose. The second came on a landing in very rough weather and one of my brake pistons failed. Not able to stop, I bled as much speed off as I could before the end of the runway. Nothing I could do about it, but the strut held again, though I dug a good sized furrow with the nose tire in the soft dirt. Sorry for the long answer. If you need more data, let me know and I can e-mail you privately. IHS, David Goodman Vertical Avionics, Inc. www.verticalavionics.com
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
David, Could you elaborate on the nose gear that collapsed? Where did it fail? Whose nose gear was it? Diehl? He has two, a standard and a Corvair version (don't know the difference). Do any recommendations come out of this incident regarding the mounting of the nose gear? My questions are innocent, I know that if you land on the mains and then settle on the nose gear you will be fine. Thanks On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 9:43 AM, David Goodman < dgood...@verticalavionics.com> wrote: > Guys, > > I was in this airplane when it crashed. If you want to know what happened > you are NOT going to find it in the pixels of an NTSB or FAA report. If > fact relying on either an FAA or NTSB report for details on anything other > than a commercial or high interest (national media coverage) mishap is a > colossal mistake. > > Facts everyone needs to know about this mishap, mishap investigations, and > the KR2 in general. > > - The current NTSB report is a PRELIMINARY REPORT. It says so right in the > first box. Most of the information they used was given to them by me, from > the back of an ambulance enroute to UC Davis Medical Center 30 minutes > after > the mishap. > > If you contact the NTSB about a mishap, they will go down a 40 question > form > with you. It is amazing how many facts I gave them they either got wrong, > or chose to word incorrectly. We will have to wait and see what the final > report says, but so far, more than half of the "facts" in the PRELIMINARY > REPORT are simply incorrect. > > Understand something about the NTSB. They took my phone call, got a > statement from Jim (PIC), looked at the plane for less than 45 minutes, and > wrote a preliminary report. The NTSB does not "investigate" mishaps of > this > nature other than to assess if they need to investigate it. Since there > was > no indication of failure of the aircraft (controls, engine, linkages) and > no > fatality (thankfully) they neither care nor desire to spend any more time > on > such mishaps. No threat to the public, no media interest nationally, no > further involvement or brain power expended by them. They have other, > better, ways of maximizing the consumption of your taxpayer dollars. > > As a military trained and experienced mishap investigator I can tell you > the > amount of time spent on a mishap scene is directly reflected in the > accuracy > of the report of findings. Do not hang your hat, or your biases, on a > "report" that has so little time invested in investigation. Just analyzing > what happened to the nose strut should have taken more time than the NTSB > spent total, if one wants to actually know what happened. A trained mishap > investigator can tell you what angle the plane impacted in pitch and roll, > what the vertical vector into the ground was (which will give the plane's > airspeed), and a host of other information, just from the nose strut. 45 > minutes total at the scene? Translating this statement to other KR > mishaps: > They may get parts of a given mishap correct and they may be enroute to > Pluto or points beyond on others. Do not define your opinions by these > reports. > > - There was nothing twitchy or overly sensitive about Jim's plane. It was > a > well balanced, solid-responding plane. I had more hours in it than anyone > else (12.1) and I had zero problem with the flight characteristics of this > aircraft. If there had been any issues with it handling qualities, my > logbook would have reflected a .1 total time in flight, just enough time to > circle to land and walk away. The plane responded to the inputs it > received. Jim's craftsmanship was very evident in how this plane flew. > > The KR design is responsive, not sensitive. This may seem like semantics, > but there is a very big difference. Most people are used to flying > aircraft > with the responsiveness of a 18-wheeler, i.e., a Cessna 150 or Piper 140. > These planes are totally forgiving of pilot errors because they are trainer > airplanes. The KR pedigree does not behave this way. Simply put, if you > fly a KR with the same heavy handedness most pilots fly with, you are going > for Mr. Toad's wild ride. > > I flew with two other pilots in Jim's KR, once each in the left and right > seat. One was an ATP, the other a commercial pilot. Neither chose to fly > in the plane again. Both made some of the classic mistakes new pilots to > the KR make, and it was "exciting" to be in the right seat with both of > them. The intent was they would finish the test phase of flying the plane, > but they declined. The ATP pilot actually told someone this was the only > plane he had ever flown that scared him, an unfortunate observation, but > not > a knock against the KR. His comfort level remains in 18-wheelers. > > Before anyone flies the KR for the first time alone it is my STRONG opinion > they need to fly with someone else in a KR first. I also submit one should > spend some time talking to someone who knows a
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
Gentlemen, With an attempt not to keep beating on the horse I would like to highlight a couple of things David wrote in his email (which I did not copy in it's entirety here to save space...reread his email.) Number one is that the NTSB did not publish a complete accident investigation which determined the exact cause of the crash, and since no one was killed, will probably not actually conduct a complete investigation to "Standard". So you can speculate all you want about the cause based on what the "Preliminary Report" implies, or based on what the media reported, or you can base your speculations on David's "eyewitness" account. Since David was not at the controls, even as an "eyewitness" he can not be expected to have known exactly what the PIC was thinking or telling his hands on the controls to do at the time. Has anybody ever talked to police investigators about how completely skewed eyewitness accounts can be. Still, as an experienced pilot trained by the military as an instructor and accident investigator, I trust David to have been paying pretty good attention to what was actually transpiring at the time of the mishap. So I would put a lot of weight on his Account being a fairly accurate depiction of the event. The Second thing I would like to highlight is David's comments about KR Handling characteristics and flying them in general. I have flown a couple of KR2s. I don't have the experience David, or a lot of you other guys have with them by flying multiple versions, but I have yet to experience this instability or twitchiness that is constantly being referred to, but even with close to 8000 hours of flight time I wouldn't consider jumping into any aircraft (even a cessna 152) that I had never flown before and attempting to fly it alone. So just like I would do with any other unknown aircraft, I chose to fly first with an experienced KR2 pilot before flying my own KR2. He carefully prepared me for the worst, and explained what to expect and how to recover from "pilot induced oscillations", then sat back and chuckled when he gave me the controls. I asked him a few minutes after taking the controls when to expect the "wierdness" to happen and he had to take the controls back and put in some major inputs to simulate and demonstrate for me what everyone was talking about. I still haven't figured out how to make the airplane do that, but will take everyone's word for it that some folks are ham fisted. The key point here being that "ham fisted" or not, why would anyone not get checked out in an unknown airplane before soloing in it? Sorry for being long winded.Just like all you builders use the wisdom of the genius aeronautical engineering types (like Mark Langford, etc.) to keep from having to learn building techniques the hard way, David Goodman has graciously offered up his expertise as an instructor. Pick his brain about flying KR2s and if you can get to him, let him fly with you, before you have to learn flying techniques the hard way (like by having to practice your building techniques again due to airframe damage.) Todd Thelin Spanaway, WA In a message dated 10/11/2010 9:44:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dgood...@verticalavionics.com writes: Guys, I was in this airplane when it crashed. If you want to know what happened... There are more photos and write-up of the mishap aircraft at: http://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/goodmans/Home/2010-kr2-mishap If you have questions about flying a KR for the first time, call me as well. I will spend however much time you need or want to help you get ready for that first flight. IHS, David Goodman Vertical Avionics, Inc. www.verticalavionics.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> kr2 accident (long) with the facts
Guys, I was in this airplane when it crashed. If you want to know what happened you are NOT going to find it in the pixels of an NTSB or FAA report. If fact relying on either an FAA or NTSB report for details on anything other than a commercial or high interest (national media coverage) mishap is a colossal mistake. Facts everyone needs to know about this mishap, mishap investigations, and the KR2 in general. - The current NTSB report is a PRELIMINARY REPORT. It says so right in the first box. Most of the information they used was given to them by me, from the back of an ambulance enroute to UC Davis Medical Center 30 minutes after the mishap. If you contact the NTSB about a mishap, they will go down a 40 question form with you. It is amazing how many facts I gave them they either got wrong, or chose to word incorrectly. We will have to wait and see what the final report says, but so far, more than half of the "facts" in the PRELIMINARY REPORT are simply incorrect. Understand something about the NTSB. They took my phone call, got a statement from Jim (PIC), looked at the plane for less than 45 minutes, and wrote a preliminary report. The NTSB does not "investigate" mishaps of this nature other than to assess if they need to investigate it. Since there was no indication of failure of the aircraft (controls, engine, linkages) and no fatality (thankfully) they neither care nor desire to spend any more time on such mishaps. No threat to the public, no media interest nationally, no further involvement or brain power expended by them. They have other, better, ways of maximizing the consumption of your taxpayer dollars. As a military trained and experienced mishap investigator I can tell you the amount of time spent on a mishap scene is directly reflected in the accuracy of the report of findings. Do not hang your hat, or your biases, on a "report" that has so little time invested in investigation. Just analyzing what happened to the nose strut should have taken more time than the NTSB spent total, if one wants to actually know what happened. A trained mishap investigator can tell you what angle the plane impacted in pitch and roll, what the vertical vector into the ground was (which will give the plane's airspeed), and a host of other information, just from the nose strut. 45 minutes total at the scene? Translating this statement to other KR mishaps: They may get parts of a given mishap correct and they may be enroute to Pluto or points beyond on others. Do not define your opinions by these reports. - There was nothing twitchy or overly sensitive about Jim's plane. It was a well balanced, solid-responding plane. I had more hours in it than anyone else (12.1) and I had zero problem with the flight characteristics of this aircraft. If there had been any issues with it handling qualities, my logbook would have reflected a .1 total time in flight, just enough time to circle to land and walk away. The plane responded to the inputs it received. Jim's craftsmanship was very evident in how this plane flew. The KR design is responsive, not sensitive. This may seem like semantics, but there is a very big difference. Most people are used to flying aircraft with the responsiveness of a 18-wheeler, i.e., a Cessna 150 or Piper 140. These planes are totally forgiving of pilot errors because they are trainer airplanes. The KR pedigree does not behave this way. Simply put, if you fly a KR with the same heavy handedness most pilots fly with, you are going for Mr. Toad's wild ride. I flew with two other pilots in Jim's KR, once each in the left and right seat. One was an ATP, the other a commercial pilot. Neither chose to fly in the plane again. Both made some of the classic mistakes new pilots to the KR make, and it was "exciting" to be in the right seat with both of them. The intent was they would finish the test phase of flying the plane, but they declined. The ATP pilot actually told someone this was the only plane he had ever flown that scared him, an unfortunate observation, but not a knock against the KR. His comfort level remains in 18-wheelers. Before anyone flies the KR for the first time alone it is my STRONG opinion they need to fly with someone else in a KR first. I also submit one should spend some time talking to someone who knows a good deal about how the KR handles relative to other aircraft. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE people who have most or all of their time in the KR, as they will miss a great deal of the difference that needs to be explained to a new KR pilot. This is not a cut down, it is simply their familiarity and comfort with the KR platform may cause them to skip key factors a new KR person needs to know about. If you spent a few years building something you are proud enough to go airborne in, take the extra bit of time to get ready to fly it the right way, by/with someone who can help you. If you cannot find anyone else to talk to, give Bill Clapp or I a
KR> kr2 accident
What if it were true that the pilot had 50 years of flying experience and several hundred hours in the very same plane. Would you still suggest pitch sensitivity?? There are many other possible causes for this accident and many of us older (over seventy ) pilots would concludeoops, that was sloppy of me!! Seldom would we blame the plane, unless of course we were lawyers! I wonder how often we have mishaps and they never get reported. I know of many as well as my own. Just pick up the broken parts and bring it back home, I suppose tho, if the broken part were me, it would soon enough get reported. - Original Message - From: "Craig Williams" <kr2seaf...@yahoo.com> To: <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:01 AM Subject: KR> kr2 accident > according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the > problem > > http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> kr2 accident
How about OVER CONTROLLING on the part of the pilot? Virg On 10/11/2010 5:01 AM, Craig Williams wrote: > according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the > problem > > http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> kr2 accident
My bad for believing the FAA guy in the article reporting that the aircraft bounced several times. I looked up the preliminary NTSB report and it does not mention any bouncing. --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Dan Heath <da...@windstream.net> wrote: From: Dan Heath <da...@windstream.net> Subject: RE: KR> kr2 accident To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 9:33 AM Old news. A very good write-up was done on this by the passenger. Pitch sensitivity is not the issue here. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2011 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN There is a time for building and it never seems to end. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> kr2 accident
Old news. A very good write-up was done on this by the passenger. Pitch sensitivity is not the issue here. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2011 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN There is a time for building and it never seems to end. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem
KR> kr2 accident
according to the article it looks like pitch sensitivity was possibly the problem http://cbs13.com/local/injury.plane.crash.2.1893161.html
