Re: iso content review #2 report

[Valorie Zimmerman]

On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan
 wrote:
> On Sunday 09 March 2014 04:32:23 Lorenzo Bicci wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's a stupid question, but why not VLC? It does everything well and
>> quite every user, even if coming from other OS's, already knows it.
>
>> What about Clementine? I don't know how much ISO space it takes, but I
>> like it better then Amarok and again it has the advantage of being available
>> for Windows and OSX too.

> Because they are not part of KDE.
>
> If KDE provides a good enough application for a specific functionality, then
> Kubuntu will ship that one.
>
> AFAIK this is the Kubuntu way. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
> --
>
> Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan
> GeekAliens.com
> Kubuntu România

Yes, indeed! Only when our choices of KDE-provided software are poor
or absent, do we reluctantly provide alternatives. Having to move to
Firefox is painful, for instance, but our KDE software choices were
not acceptable.

Harald has worked really hard on finding the best alternatives for the
ISO, and I applaud him for that work. People who want VLC, Clementine
or Juk will be easily able to install them.

Also, for the record, Amarok is available for both Windows and Mac.

Valorie
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan]

On Sunday 09 March 2014 04:32:23 Lorenzo Bicci wrote:
> Maybe it's a stupid question, but why not VLC? It does everything well 
and
> quite every user, even if coming from other OS's, already knows it.
> 
> What about Clementine? I don't know how much ISO space it takes, but I 
like
> it better then Amarok and again it has the advantage of being available 
for
> Windows and OSX too.

Because they are not part of KDE.

If KDE provides a good enough application for a specific functionality, then 
Kubuntu will ship that one.

AFAIK this is the Kubuntu way. Someone please corect me if I'm wrong.


*Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan*
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Lorenzo Bicci]

-- Messaggio inoltrato --
From: Harald Sitter 
To: Kubuntu Developer Discussion 
Cc:
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:04:44 +0100
Subject: Re: iso content review #2 report
>On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 12:45 AM, Aleix Pol  wrote:
>> Furthermore, I don't think it's that essential having a by-playlists
player
>> by default with the OS. There is dragon player as well right?
>Well, dragon player is no audio player and playlists for videos are
>only particularly useful for one type of video

Maybe it's a stupid question, but why not VLC? It does everything well and
quite every user, even if coming from other OS's, already knows it.

>Anyway, IMO exchanging Amarok with JuK would not improve anything. Yes
>it would reduce ISO space consumption (amarok has a pile of icons and
>dependencies), but Amarok also has quite some critical features (e.g.
>the ability to syncing music stuff to an ipod). Iff there was a global
>workspace multimedia collection/database and a resonable GUI backing
>to address these use cases in other ways, or if JuK had this type of
>feature as well, the argument might look different.

What about Clementine? I don't know how much ISO space it takes, but I like
it better then Amarok and again it has the advantage of being available for
Windows and OSX too.
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Harald Sitter]

On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 12:45 AM, Aleix Pol  wrote:
> Note that one of the best parts of using a GNU/Linux distribution is the
> possibility to install software easily, especially if you have Muon Discover
> (wink).

omg :O

> Furthermore, I don't think it's that essential having a by-playlists player
> by default with the OS. There is dragon player as well right?

Well, dragon player is no audio player and playlists for videos are
only particularly useful for one type of video

Anyway, IMO exchanging Amarok with JuK would not improve anything. Yes
it would reduce ISO space consumption (amarok has a pile of icons and
dependencies), but Amarok also has quite some critical features (e.g.
the ability to syncing music stuff to an ipod). Iff there was a global
workspace multimedia collection/database and a resonable GUI backing
to address these use cases in other ways, or if JuK had this type of
feature as well, the argument might look different.

HS

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Aleix Pol]

On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Clay Weber  wrote:

>  On Wednesday, March 05, 2014 10:00:00 AM Harald Sitter wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Clay Weber  wrote:
>
> > > On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 07:01:48 PM Phil Wyett wrote:
>
> > >> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
>
> > >>
>
> > >> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Regards
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Phil
>
> > >
>
> > > No, it will not be popular at all :p
>
> > >
>
> > > -1
>
> >
>
> > y u hate on juk? :'<
>
> I don't hate on the lovely Juk, but removing Amarok would not be popular.
>
>
> --
>
> Clay Weber (claydoh)
>
> http://kubuntuforums.net
>
> http://claydoh.com
>
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>
Note that one of the best parts of using a GNU/Linux distribution is the
possibility to install software easily, especially if you have Muon
Discover (wink).

Furthermore, I don't think it's that essential having a by-playlists player
by default with the OS. There is dragon player as well right?

Aleix
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Clay Weber]

On Wednesday, March 05, 2014 10:00:00 AM Harald Sitter wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Clay Weber  wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 07:01:48 PM Phil Wyett wrote:
> >> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
> >> 
> >> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Regards
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Phil
> > 
> > No, it will not be popular at all :p
> > 
> > -1
> 
> y u hate on juk? :'<
I don't hate on the lovely Juk, but removing Amarok would not be popular.


Clay Weber (claydoh)
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http://claydoh.com[2] 


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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Donatas G.]

I will not offer a +-1 regarding Amarok (as I am currently not active in
Kubuntu), but I, as a casual user, do find Juk to be a better - a more
"just play it" oriented, less cluttered - option if I just want to listen
to the music I have on my computer. Amarok is ok, but it also is quite
formidable in that regard. I do appreciate Amarok's MTP support, though,
that is the reason I still use it.

Donatas Glodenis


2014-03-05 11:00 GMT+02:00 Harald Sitter :

> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Clay Weber  wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 07:01:48 PM Phil Wyett wrote:
> >> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
> >
> >> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Regards
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Phil
> >
> > No, it will not be popular at all :p
> >
> > -1
>
> y u hate on juk? :'<
>
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Harald Sitter]

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Clay Weber  wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 07:01:48 PM Phil Wyett wrote:
>> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
>
>> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
>
>>
>
>> Regards
>
>>
>
>> Phil
>
> No, it will not be popular at all :p
>
> -1

y u hate on juk? :'<

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Clay Weber]

On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 07:01:48 PM Phil Wyett wrote:
> On Fri, 2014-02-28 at 14:17 +0100, Harald Sitter wrote:
> > https://trello.com/b/8ih8Orjf/14-04-iso-content-review-2
> > 
> > - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
> > - calligra drags in marble
> > ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of
> > space - krita is huge <- I mean it
> > - python 3.3 and 3.4 being both supported still continues to waste
> > quite a bit of space
> > 
> > otherwise minor improvements are possible
> > 
> > opinions on the cards are very welcome.
> > 
> > HS
> 
> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil
No, it will not be popular at all :p
-1


Clay Weber (claydoh)
http://kubuntuforums.net[1]
http://claydoh.com[2] 


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Re: iso content review #2 report

[James Cain]

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Phil Wyett  wrote:

> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
>

No thanks. Amarok is still regarded as [one of] the best audio players on
any platform - not just KDE or even Linux.
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Myriam Schweingruber]

Erm, no?

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Phil Wyett  wrote:
> On Fri, 2014-02-28 at 14:17 +0100, Harald Sitter wrote:
>> https://trello.com/b/8ih8Orjf/14-04-iso-content-review-2
>>
>> - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
>> - calligra drags in marble
>> ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of 
>> space
>> - krita is huge <- I mean it
>> - python 3.3 and 3.4 being both supported still continues to waste
>> quite a bit of space
>>
>> otherwise minor improvements are possible
>>
>> opinions on the cards are very welcome.
>>
>> HS
>>
>
> Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
> with a leaner alternative, for example juk.
>
> Regards
>
> Phil
>
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-- 
Proud member of the Amarok and KDE Community
Protect your freedom and join the Fellowship of FSFE:
http://www.fsfe.org
Please don't send me proprietary file formats,
use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300)

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Phil Wyett]

On Fri, 2014-02-28 at 14:17 +0100, Harald Sitter wrote:
> https://trello.com/b/8ih8Orjf/14-04-iso-content-review-2
> 
> - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
> - calligra drags in marble
> ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of space
> - krita is huge <- I mean it
> - python 3.3 and 3.4 being both supported still continues to waste
> quite a bit of space
> 
> otherwise minor improvements are possible
> 
> opinions on the cards are very welcome.
> 
> HS
> 

Ok, this may not be popular. We maybe could consider replacing amarok
with a leaner alternative, for example juk.

Regards

Phil


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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan]

On 01.03.2014 19:48, Harald Sitter wrote:

So what do we do?

As stated in another thread:
IMO we should drop Krita from the ISO and make it a featured application 
in Discover. We should replace it with KColourPaint. It's a basic 
drawing/"editing" application, that meets the needs of the average user.


Personally I haven't used eighter LO Base nor Kexi, but since we already 
have most of LO on the ISO, adding LO Base instead of Kexi shouldn't be 
a problem.

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Harald Sitter]

On Friday 28 February 2014 21:51:56 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Friday, February 28, 2014 15:25:07 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Michał Zając
> > >> Why do we have both? o_o
> > 
> > How about we remove Calligra from the ISO this time around, and
> > re-evaluate for 14.10? Ideally I'd love to see us use the KDE
> > offerings, but it has to be fully usable at least for home use.
> 
> How did it all get there anyway?
> 
> I thought it was just supposed to be krita (which is a good idea, IMO).

Well, and kexi. And regarding krita being a good idea: who is supposed to use 
krita? what's the use case it addresses for our users? and most importantly, 
does it need to consume so much space to fulfill the usecase?

The problem with all office applications is that they will have or allow for 
tight integration with one another, so you can stick a presentation, a drawing 
into a document, powered by a spreadsheet, powered by a database. This is why 
the mix and match attitude we pursue at the moment doesn't really work out, 
because everything is very much mushed together on both ends. We replace two 
parts of LibreOffice with two parts of Calligra. Except we don't. The majority 
of the stuff is in shared libraries etc. and AFAIK LO is not even packaged in 
such a way that we are saving anything in terms of icons (namely LO base, 
that's the database app, safes us exciting 1.4mb, LO draw safes an additional 
2.2mb - mind you, LO draw is implicitly dragged in because impress needs 
it...).

For the 1.4mb of LO apps we safe we get the following (brackets mention 
compressed size, so that's roughly the size occupied on the ISO; packages 
without a size are <1mb):

| kexi (4mb)
| krita (5mb)
  | krita-data (15mb)
  | libfftw3-double3
  | libglew1.10
  | libkdcraw23
| libraw9
| libkdcraw-data
  | libopencolorio1
| libyaml-cpp0.3 
| libtinyxml2.6.2
  | libopenjpeg2
  | calligra-libs (5mb)
| calligra-data (1mb)
| fonts-lyx
| libkrossui4
| libm2mml0.0
  | libcauchy0.0
| libmarblewidget17 (1mb)
  | marble-data (13mb)
  | marble-plugins (9mb)
| libqextserialport1
| libqtlocation1
| libquazip0
| libshp1
| libwlocate0 
| libphononexperimental4
| libspnav0

Now let's assume that we can split the marble bits out (which may not even be 
possible, but one can hope). We'd still be adding about 30mb (!), all of 
Calligra is 50mb. So I guess, we are shipping more than 50% of Calligra and 
certainly more than 50% of LO. Conclusion: we must be shipping two office 
suites.
Exceptionally avant-garde; not very practical I fear.

So what do we do?
Dropping kexi in favor of base might not be very useful on its own because 
(other than marble) most of the stuff is still dragged in by krita anyway.
Which brings me back to the original question: is it really a good idea to 
have krita?

Food for thought: Ubuntu Unity's ISO is 930mb (70 less than ours) and contains 
2 languages in addition to english, our ISO meanwhile is yet again oversized 
(>1000mb) and contains no languages other than english

HS

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Scott Kitterman]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 15:25:07 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Michał Zając
> 
>  wrote:
> > Can't we get rid of Calligra for now? No matter how I look at it, it's
> > still not a fully useable replacement for LO.
> > 
> > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:
> >> > - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
> >> 
> >> Ubufox being dragged in because of Firefox , I've filed a bug here [1]
> >> which has received no attention from the package maintainers :(
> >> 
> >> As a matter of fact, ubufox is currently broken on ubuntu as well, apt
> >> integration doesn't work, flash install integration doesn't work, etc
> >> etc
> >> 
> >> > - calligra drags in marble
> >> > ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste
> >> > of
> >> > space
> >> 
> >> Why do we have both? o_o
> >> 
> >> Cheers
> >> Rohan Garg
> >> 
> >> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1274605
> 
> How about we remove Calligra from the ISO this time around, and
> re-evaluate for 14.10? Ideally I'd love to see us use the KDE
> offerings, but it has to be fully usable at least for home use.
> 
> Valorie

How did it all get there anyway?

I thought it was just supposed to be krita (which is a good idea, IMO).

Scott K

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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Valorie Zimmerman]

On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Michał Zając
 wrote:
> Can't we get rid of Calligra for now? No matter how I look at it, it's still
> not a fully useable replacement for LO.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:
>>
>> > - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
>> Ubufox being dragged in because of Firefox , I've filed a bug here [1]
>> which has received no attention from the package maintainers :(
>>
>> As a matter of fact, ubufox is currently broken on ubuntu as well, apt
>> integration doesn't work, flash install integration doesn't work, etc
>> etc
>>
>> > - calligra drags in marble
>> > ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of
>> > space
>>
>> Why do we have both? o_o
>>
>> Cheers
>> Rohan Garg
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1274605

How about we remove Calligra from the ISO this time around, and
re-evaluate for 14.10? Ideally I'd love to see us use the KDE
offerings, but it has to be fully usable at least for home use.

Valorie
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Michał Zając]

Can't we get rid of Calligra for now? No matter how I look at it, it's
still not a fully useable replacement for LO.


On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Rohan Garg  wrote:

> > - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
> Ubufox being dragged in because of Firefox , I've filed a bug here [1]
> which has received no attention from the package maintainers :(
>
> As a matter of fact, ubufox is currently broken on ubuntu as well, apt
> integration doesn't work, flash install integration doesn't work, etc
> etc
>
> > - calligra drags in marble
> > ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of
> space
>
> Why do we have both? o_o
>
> Cheers
> Rohan Garg
>
> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1274605
>
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Re: iso content review #2 report

[Rohan Garg]

> - ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
Ubufox being dragged in because of Firefox , I've filed a bug here [1]
which has received no attention from the package maintainers :(

As a matter of fact, ubufox is currently broken on ubuntu as well, apt
integration doesn't work, flash install integration doesn't work, etc
etc

> - calligra drags in marble
> ^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of space

Why do we have both? o_o

Cheers
Rohan Garg

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1274605

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iso content review #2 report

[Harald Sitter]

https://trello.com/b/8ih8Orjf/14-04-iso-content-review-2

- ubufox is dragging in aptdaemon :S
- calligra drags in marble
^ on that note, having calligra and LO on the ISO is a gigantic waste of space
- krita is huge <- I mean it
- python 3.3 and 3.4 being both supported still continues to waste
quite a bit of space

otherwise minor improvements are possible

opinions on the cards are very welcome.

HS

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