[lace] Re: Spencer
Has anyone tried searching that for words like spencer, chemise, and camisole? You could find the earliest uses of the words and how they were used in whatever time period is of interest Robin *** I posted two or three already and don't think I included Spencer, but think someone else did, or shared similar. Jenny shared a great link about historical lingerie with references to all but spencer, also. Best, Susan Reishus - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
[lace] Re: Spencer
If you put chemise into the search engine of google, you get lots of long slips and dresses. Merriam Webster is here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chemise If you put chemise dress you get the same, including some Renaissance long dresses. I think it becomes even more complicated within language, even English to American English languages (much less when they are interpreted again by someone from another language and their interpretation or online translator). Then you are deciding to use it in current verbiage or older, tied to the timing of the piece you are designing. I have a friend with whom I have been discussing not only the terms, but the language differences, as she was born and lived in the UK and later other countries, but has resided in the US for a few decades, and it has been interesting. (She was also surprised that so many remembered Liberty Bodices...S) FWIW, she implied and I understood, that the best to bridge both would perhaps be camisole, but Alex will do what she feels is best. Just in case this is helpful, as I think of a chemise in the current application as a looser dress, or in the old, as some version of a shirt or underlayer with mixed applications, but as a barrier between outer garment and skin. Thank you for opening the discussion up, as we have had the opportunity to read more interesting history and expand perceptions and understanding. S Best, Susan Reishus - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
Re: [lace] Re: Spencer
Susan Reishus elationrelat...@yahoo.com wrote: If you put chemise into the search engine of google, you get lots of long slips and dresses. That reminds me--remember the Google Ngram? We talked about it awhile back on Arachne. Google analyzed the word content of a huge library going back into the 1600's. Has anyone tried searching that for words like spencer, chemise, and camisole? You could find the earliest uses of the words and how they were used in whatever time period is of interest. Just a thought. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
[lace] Re: Spencer
re: spencer...(rather) suggestions to use shift or chemise instead. Looking them up the shift is 14-18th cent. chemise late 18th-19thC. Also a shift usually had sleeves and a chemise can be without them. As the garment I am making is sleeveless and the doll is in the style of early 20th cent. Unless anyone comes up with something better I'll use the term chemise. Alex *** To add further confusion, dresses were called shifts in the last century; if they had straighter lines and were less tightly fitted or structured. Since I don't know the shape of your design, I agree that chemise is best, as camisole is typically viewed as something with straps, often narrower. These terms keep getting reused or misused, which really causes confusion for historians and authors. Best, Susan Reishus - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
[lace] RE. spencer
HI Alex, If you are talking about making underwear for the doll then I think that a Spencer is a type of bodice. The page of Wikipedia entitled Spencer (Clothing) says towards the end of the initial text that in Australia a liberty bodice is called a Spencer. I wore a liberty bodice under my clothes for warmth in the winter as a child. But I don't think a liberty bodice is what is meant in your dolls clothing, a liberty bodice came later than the period I expect you are looking at, which I think is probably Victorian. I found this page showing costume from the Victorian era. About 3/4 of the way down the page is a sketch of a petticoat bodice from the period with lace on it. The petticoat bodice was separate from the petticoat skirt and was worn to protect the corset and dress from each other and prevented the corset from showing at the neckline of evening dresses or through gauzy fabric dresses. Click on the link in the text to go to a page describing corset covers, protectors and camisoles where it talks further about the petticoat bodice. http://www.tudorlinks.com/treasury/articles/viewvictunder1.html Perhaps this is what you are looking for. Further up same page it talks about the drawers. I found the site fascinating and there are many free patterns given for items of clothing. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. Alex wrote:- I am making lace for doll's underwear and am currently working on a bodice to go with her drawers. I have been told that this article of clothing is a spencer. Is this correct? I tried Wilipedia but there is no reference. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
[lace] Re: Spencer
Thank you Linda Walton, for the wonderful essay! *** http://www.tudorlinks.com/treasury/articles/viewvictunder1.html Jenny DeAngelis Your link, Jenny, provides interesting information. Thanks! *** It is an interesting subject, and seeing how words got used and reused, sometimes incorrectly. Looking up Chemise here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemise It stories what I would paraphrase as an under blouse but you can see how it's purpose and look evolved as what I would call an underlayer or interlayer. I tend to think of a chemise being of most any shape, but can also have shoulders fully there, vs. a camisole typically having narrow straps, which Wiki seems to confirm, but that source isn't 100% reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camisole An analogy would be currently knit (and lace knit) neck warmers are often called cowls, but those newer to knitting or fashion don't realize it refers to a loose and drapey neckline (so is used appropriately sometimes). Now they are calling even short wide bands that button at the neck, a cowl, etc. A cowl originally was a hooded garment for monks, so the drapey character of that segued to the use of the word for a neckline, and now to something quite different. There are many other examples, but I will let this suffice. Best, Susan Reishus - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003/albums/most-recent
