Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
Historically, it was considered proper to have subjects mainly facing right, unless there was a cluster within a scene. Here the sower (and dog) and gleaner are facing right, which would subsidize the SWM theory. Best, Susan Reishus The larger piece makes me wonder about monograms - the monogram at each end is composed of letters that are the same upside-down as right-side up, so I'm wondering - do you think the monogram is SWM or MWS? I think it is SWM because that is the way it reads when the picture that it is under is in proper orientation. Note that the one end features the same boy strewing grain with his dog which is on the other piece. The opposite shows a woman gathering sheaves. Devon Links to pieces: The small piece of lace is 30 cm x 45 cm http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4773131539_d4411736be_b.jpg The large piece is 160 cm x 45 cm. http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4773770120_2384189d29_b.jpg - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
From the quality of the photo it's hard to make absolute comments as from the lack of definition it could even be machine made lace VBG so I'll just talk in general terms. First I wonder why you think it is Point de Paris as distinct from another Point Ground type lace? PdeP is usually a narrow edge/insertion lace rather than a large shaped piece. (It was also copied on machines from the 1830s, another VBG) Do you have the pieces so you can look at the ground with a magnifying glass to make a proper identification? To answer your questions, 1) how many bobbins would be needed to make these laces. How long is a piece of string? Lots and lots. Hundreds of pairs probably. 2) how long would it take approximately? How long would it have taken a professional lacemaker? Or how long would it take a good lacemaker now? The two things are vastly different. Assuming the former, a long time, but not as long as we think it might take. Apart from the fact that they could make lace very much faster than we can, they didn't keep getting up to make a coffee, answer the phone, let the dog out and all the other petty interruptions we allow ourselves. And of course they would work at it for eight or more hours a day, every day, so long as the light was good enough. I always remember Doreen Fudge at the Luton Museum (? I think - it's the museum not the person that I am unsure about) holding up a fairly ornate Bedfordshire lace collar and telling us it was a day and a half's work for the professional lacemakers of the time it was made. 3) which side is the beginning and where does it end? Vertical? Horizontal? Short end start, work the length of the piece, otherwise the hundreds of pairs of bobbins would be thousands, even with the smaller piece. On the smaller piece, which is the one with a slightly better photo, there looks to be a slight difference on the right hand end, this could be the finish. The end should be easier to find than the start - unless it's machine lace. If it is yours, could you take a couple of much clearer close-ups for us to see? Jacquie in Lincolnshire - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
Jacquie writes: which side is the beginning and where does it end? Vertical? Horizontal? Short end start, work the length of the piece, otherwise the hundreds of pairs of bobbins would be thousands, even with the smaller piece. On the smaller piece, which is the one with a slightly better photo, there looks to be a slight difference on the right hand end, this could be the finish. The end should be easier to find than the start - unless it's machine lace. Far be it from me to comment on a piece of lace that I don't have a clear image of, and may even be machine made. However, it has been my observation, especially with chantilly, that very large pieces like this are often made in pieces that have very strange and counter-intuitive shapes. The edges of the shapes may run along the solid work so that joining is invisible, and as little joining as possible has to be done in the mesh. Often they are artfully designed so that there are places with just a very small space between lovely fronds. In this way, the piece can be made in numerous small pieces on a pillow, then joined, but the joiner has to be very expert in joining technique. As a result, all the exterior pieces can be uniform, without a lot of threads ending at one end, because the ends of the pieces are actually on the inside. I think it was Pamela Nottingham who made the observation that working large pieces on large pillows with a huge number of bobbins results in uneven tension and difficult working postures, and that it was not often done in the past for that reason. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
You're quite right, Devon, I answered quickly before I went out this morning, and the made-in-pieces bit got stuck in the recesses of my brain. Another reason why it would be excellent if stevienixed would post some more, much better pictures of details. The rest of my answers still stand though (I have re-read them and I think they make sense). They are very difficult questions to answer, and unusual to find on Arachne in quite that way, so I wonder if the questioner is a bobbin lace maker. They seem more the sort of questions that a collector who doesn't actually make lace would ask. I realise that for example, when David made his Miss Channer's Mat, we were all interested in how long it was taking but that was more because we were impressed how steadily he was progressing through it. But he wouldn't earn a living at the speed he was working. Thinking about the UK for a moment, there may be records somewhere of how much yardage, or how many motifs an average lacemaker could produce in the week/month gaps between seeing the dealer, but I doubt if there are records which would also show how many hours a day those people were working. And the lace schools where the number of hours could be better estimated probably sold their lace as a block, so there the problem might be knowing how many lacemakers there were. So, as before, the answers of necessity are tenuous; but better photos would help us to answer the number of bobbins and the start finish places questions, or to even say if it's handmade at all. Jacquie - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
My two cents: I'm thinking these pieces are probably machine-made. They're really very big (for the non-metric, the small is 12 x 18 and the large is about 63 x 18) and the type of design makes me think they're later rather than earlier. The larger piece makes me wonder about monograms - the monogram at each end is composed of letters that are the same upside-down as right-side up, so I'm wondering - do you think the monogram is SWM or MWS? Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - Original Message - From: Nathalie stevieni...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010 11:09 pm Subject: [lace] Point de Paris laces To: lace Arachne lace@arachne.com Dear all, Many of you might have left for the Oidfa congress but I hope some of you will be able to give some information on these Point de Paris laces. The small piece of lace is 30 cm x 45 cm http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4773131539_d4411736be_b.jpg The large piece is 160 cm x 45 cm. http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4773770120_2384189d29_b.jpg I wonder * how many bobbins would be needed to make these laces. * how long would it take approximately? * wich side is the beginning and where does it end? Vertical? Horizontal? Thank you in advance and have a lacy summer! - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Point de Paris laces
Some of us weren';t fortunate enough to get to Japan. I';m working madly to complete all my chores getting ready to host IOLI in 16 (!!! yikes !!!) days. I'm not the expert on these laces...the pictures are too small to show the details. They could be either machine or handmade, from the little I can see. If they are handmade, here are my comments. How many bobbins? Enlarge the picture until each thread is distinct, draw a line across the picture, and count the threads that cross the line. This would give a general idea even if not the exact total. A full sized picture of the item would probably be large enough to see the threads. How long? Modern speed, a 12 x 18 inch item done in average thread (cotton size 50) would take 200 hours by a lacemaker who is not a beginner. This thread was probably much smaller, so more threads per square inch, which would be more work. And a professional lacemaker, working 8 to 14 hours a day, would be faster from experience. So, I would make a wild guess of 300 to 500 hours for the small piece. (And a machine would do it in maybe 15 minutes.) Which side is the start and finish? A very well done piece would be hard to tell with a casual look. However, on the small piece, I see a little suspicious point of thread on the right side in the middle of the edge that does not have a corresponding bit on the left side. From this very small picture, I would guess the piece of started from the left side with the bobbins wound in pairs. At the other end, the excess pairs were woven in through the edge two or three pairs, and discarded, as the oval became smaller. At the very center of the end, the last 4 (probably) pairs had no place to go and would braided/tied off, and cut off. I have seen this method of living a tiny tail from the last few pairs on several pieces of both old and modern laces. Personally, I don';t like to do thattoo particular, I guess. I would have tied them and then used a needle to weave the ends back in the lace. Since the lace in the picture had the tail left on, that also might be a sign that it was machine done since the machine could not weave the ends back in. Interesting questions...and interesting lacesbut more detailed pictures would have been nice. Alice in Oregon -- off to spend another day on conference chores. Jul 7, 2010 11:09:25 PM, stevieni...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, I wonder * how many bobbins would be needed to make these laces. * how long would it take approximately? * wich side is the beginning and where does it end? Vertical? Horizontal? - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
