On Aug 25, 2006, at 17:07, Thurlow Weed wrote:
Rosemary's post got me thinking a bit about my upbringing. I was
discussing this thread with my mother by phone this morning, and she
too,
despised being addressed as "Mrs Thurlow Weed." She had her own name,
thank you very much.
Precisely <VBG>. I got married in '73 and my husband expected me to use
the "Mrs Severn Duvall" format, "that being the custom". "Doubtless, so
that the same calling card can be used for all your generic wives" said
I, dripping sarcasm. He did try to explain about the widow's priviledge
of reverting to her first name, but I was disinclined to wait; I had
just gotten married, for love, and couldn't think of a more grisly idea
than having to wait for his death before I could reclaim my identity.
So I never used my predecessor's calling cards...
As for titles... I grew up with several gradations of "respect". Until
I was 18, my Mother's friends (my father didn't seem to have any <g>)
were addressed as "Aunt Jane" and "Uncle George" (while real aunts and
uncles -- all on my father's side -- were addressed simply as "Aunt"
and Uncle", though referred to as "Aunt jane" etc). All adults outside
the immediate circle were addressed by "Mrs (Pani) Smith" and "Mr (Pan)
Jones" if the surname was known (parents of friends, for example), and
"Mrs" and "Mr" if it was a total stranger. But, once I was 18 -- and
entitled to being "pani" myself -- things changed.
"Aunt Jane" disappeared, being replaced by "Jane" -- that was done
officially, at my 18th birthday party, where each of them in turn
*offered me the priviledge of using their first name* (the older woman
to a younger one). With the men it was a bit more awkward, because a
man -- even an older one -- could not use a woman's first name without
permisssion. So, at the same party, they would all address me as "Pani
Tamara" (of that form in a minute) and I'd formally suggest they
address me by my first name alone, as they had for the past 18 yrs :)
And that introduced yet another form of address, that of the formal
title (Pani) coupled with the first name rather than the surname.
That's sort of a middle ground, between total formality and personal
friendship. Co-workers of equal status, will after a while, be
addressed by Pani/Pan+ First Name (the boss remains Pani/Pan +
surname). All other rules remained the same; an older woman would have
to initiate the loosening of formality, by calling me "pani Tamara"
instead of "Pani Przybyl", and I'd initiate the same by calling a man
"Pan Antoni", instead of "Pan Kowalski". The next step -- if you got
bit friendlier -- would be "Pan/Pani+diminutive of the first name. Only
if you became personal friends would the title be dropped.
They're not old enough to address me by my first name.
Addressing an elder by first name is a privilege, not a right.
That's exactly how I feel, to this day. I can get incadescent with rage
-- inside -- when some "piss-panty" (anyone more than 20 yrs younger
than I am) calls me by my first name without first being granted the
freedom to do so. Outside, I just ignore them the first two times and
on the third I tell them my name is "Mrs Duvall"... So, they think I'm
nuts? OK.
But now I'm curious: the tendency in the US of children addressing
elders by their first name; while I abhor it, I am curious to know if
this is the case in other countries as well. Is this a US phenomenon,
or
does it exist elsewhere?
Depends on the parents -- at least in Poland. Some (of my generation)
have imbibed of the equality idea so deeply, that they encourage their
children to use first names when addressing adults. To those, I usually
say "your Mama can call me 'Tamara', but to you I'm 'Mrs Duvall' until
you're a bit older". Most, usually instruct their children to call me
"Aunt Tamara", and I let them drop the "Aunt" when they're about 16-17.
Takes about 2-3 yrs before they get used to it, but eventually they do.
I too have been thinking about Rosemary's posting:
I was taught to address people by their given name & family name and
not to use titles as everyone is equal, and using titles denote
inequality.
Peculiarly, in Polish, it's the usage of the honorrifics (titles) that
is a sign not only of respect but also of a level of equality. Almost
until WWI, only the aristorcracy were addressed as Pan (master) and
Pani (mistress) (their children were: Panicz for a boy, and Panienka or
Panna for a girl). Everyone else, being of lower class, was addressed
by the surname (in the case of males) or, in the case of females,
either by the first name or by the father's or husband's surname
(different endings for each). It was only after the WWI, that, with the
emergence of the middle class, the honorifics began to be applied to
them also (if only among themselves). That custom trickled down to the
lower classes also, so that the servants and labourers (though not
peasants), when talking to one another would use Pan and Pani before
the surname. Meanwhile, the aristocracy were addressed and referred to
by a *double* honorific (Pan Dziedzic - Mister Squire). After WWII, in
the name of equality, everyone was supposed to address everyone else as
comrade (male and female version), but that never "took" outside the
party meetings :)
I think the evolution of honorifics was similiar to that which happened
in England, except that in England it happened earlier, because England
had a strong middle class much earlier than Poland did (duue to
historical factors)
More than y'all ever wanted to know, eh? <g>
--
Tamara P Duvall http://t-n-lace.net/
Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland)
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