Re: [lace-chat] Re: Whither US?
On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 11:30:13PM -0500, Tamara P. Duvall wrote: On Feb 3, 2005, at 1:01, Weronika Patena wrote: This is the first thing I've ever heard that I could seriously apply the adjective mind-boggling to... Really scary, too. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4225013.stm Yes, but only up to a point... It *is* scary, because those kids mouth off what they'd heard at home, which gives you an insight into what US (supposedly s much for liberty... All the while hating liberals g) *really is* - as bigoted as any other country. But you also need to adjust it for age group These are highschool teens. They've not been taught freedom of speech at home... Quite the opposite, they've been taught to keep their mouths closed and follow the party line. How many parents on this list, however liberal/progressive, have, never-ever, used the phrase: don't you dare speak to me like this! to a sulky child? The -accepted by necessity and excused by necessity - parental disregard for individuality is easily transfered to *other* authority, be it a priest or a president. ??? Since when do teenagers actually think this sort of parental behavior *is a good thing* and want more of it from the government in their adult lives?? You'd think it'd just make them even more against any authoritarian tendencies... And, of course, those kids may never get the chance to grow up into thinking individuals; the current administration does not encourage individual thinking any more than the Polish/USSR communist governments did... Fortunately, even under the communist government we ended up with a decent fraction of thinking people... Perhaps even more decent than usual, since it was so obvious that there was something wrong with the way the administration was doing things. Weronika -- Weronika Patena Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Re: Whither US?
On Feb 7, 2005, at 12:44, Weronika Patena wrote (in response to my message): ??? Since when do teenagers actually think this sort of parental behavior *is a good thing* and want more of it from the government in their adult lives?? You'd think it'd just make them even more against any authoritarian tendencies... You'd *think*... :) But, my experience has been otherwise. First, I'm talking about teenagers between 11-12 at one end and 16-18 at the other (in Polish, -teen starts after 10) - still within the run of the mill system, not the University (or Polytechnic, or any above-the-highschool-level schools, which are special in many ways). What I have observed - myself, my friends, my son, my friends' children - is this: the parents and the kids can fight - tooth and nail - on every issue under the sun. But ask them a question of *judgement* that is outside their direct interest/knowledge - something I tend to term philosophy/politics (are men or women better drivers? Are Whites, Asians, Latinos, or Blacks the smartest segment of the population? Abortion? Gay marriage? Gun control? Freedom of speech? Etc, etc)... Any and all of those issues they have never really given any thought to, because the immediate reality (is Amy gonna invite me to her b-day party, and will Bobby be there? If so, what sould I wear other than makeup?) is more important... Short term is where it's at when you're a very young human being, just beginning to think :) So, faced with big issues, they're likely to spout back whatever they'd heard - either the latest or the most often repeated. And home is where they hear it :) If home, school, church and government (TV) all agree, that's splendid, since it requires no thinking at all, just regurgitation, adjusted for hopefully, this is what you want to hear. If the're a discrepancy, they chose the view they've heard from the least objectionable parent... I was thrown into adulthood prematurely, but even I was unable to - totally - escape this paradigm; until I was 16, I was still fine-tuning my Mother's point of view (discarded my father's at 12, the government's at 6 - at my Mother's instigation - and never thought the church knew what it was talking about, having gown up as an atheist) So, I'm worried, but not unduly :) I think many of those kids - likely, as big a proportion as in the communist Poland - will end up thinking for themselves, albeit a tad later than we did :) At which point, some of them *may* refute what they'd learnt at their authority's knee. Bush's restrictive system may, actually, have the same backlash result in the long run that the communist goverment's did; it's so obviously *wrong*, people will start objecting on principle, even if they don't *quite* know what they're objecting to... :) I sure as sure was unsure what I was demonstrating against on March 8, 1968, until the reeling-drunk special forces invaded the University territory, and beat the s... out of us all... The *only time* it'd happened before in the U's 500yr history was when the Nazis did it, during WWII, which energised our opposition no end... g Of course, we did know our history (and its bizarre turns), while Americans don't seem to care about past lessons... :( PS Weronika... Nie mam jeszcze zarezerwowanego biletu wiec nie mam dokladnych dat, ale moj weekend w Kaliforni jest planowany na 16-17 kwietnia. Postaraj sie odwiedzic meza w tym czasie, zebysmy sie mogly - nareszcie - spotkac. Najlepiej we dwojke, na koronkarskie pogawedki, ale jesli nie, to w czworke (Ty z mezem i ja z synem) tez mozna... T -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Re: Whither US?
On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 11:49:42PM -0500, Tamara P. Duvall wrote: What I have observed - myself, my friends, my son, my friends' children - is this: the parents and the kids can fight - tooth and nail - on every issue under the sun. But ask them a question of *judgement* that is outside their direct interest/knowledge - something I tend to term philosophy/politics (are men or women better drivers? Are Whites, Asians, Latinos, or Blacks the smartest segment of the population? Abortion? Gay marriage? Gun control? Freedom of speech? Etc, etc)... Any and all of those issues they have never really given any thought to, because the immediate reality (is Amy gonna invite me to her b-day party, and will Bobby be there? If so, what sould I wear other than makeup?) is more important... Short term is where it's at when you're a very young human being, just beginning to think :) So, faced with big issues, they're likely to spout back whatever they'd heard - either the latest or the most often repeated. And home is where they hear it :) If home, school, church and government (TV) all agree, that's splendid, since it requires no thinking at all, just regurgitation, adjusted for hopefully, this is what you want to hear. If the're a discrepancy, they chose the view they've heard from the least objectionable parent... I still find that unintuitive - my default response to most questions, if I didn't think about it, was to spout the *exact opposite* of whatever was most often repeated at home or in school... I still haven't managed to get rid of this attitude - I find myself having problems with completely harmless things (like a white wedding dress) just because that's how it's traditionally done. Reverse regurgitation doesn't require much thinking either... But I can believe that most teenagers choose the opposite route, if they don't have any basic world-view conflicts with their parents... I was thrown into adulthood prematurely, but even I was unable to - totally - escape this paradigm; until I was 16, I was still fine-tuning my Mother's point of view (discarded my father's at 12, the government's at 6 - at my Mother's instigation - and never thought the church knew what it was talking about, having gown up as an atheist) I was raised Catholic, but decided it makes no sense in early high school, which would indicate some thinking... Still had to go to religion classes until I turned 18, since my parents refused to sign the papers to let me not to. And my problems with the religion were mostly of the abortion, gay marriage, etc. sort, not of the church is boring and I don't see a point sort. Bush's restrictive system may, actually, have the same backlash result in the long run that the communist goverment's did; it's so obviously *wrong*, people will start objecting on principle, even if they don't *quite* know what they're objecting to... That seems very possible right now... Of course, we did know our history (and its bizarre turns), while Americans don't seem to care about past lessons... :( Their history doesn't seem to be nearly as painful, so it's probably harder to remember. Weronika -- Weronika Patena Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Re: Whither US?
On Feb 3, 2005, at 1:01, Weronika Patena wrote: This is the first thing I've ever heard that I could seriously apply the adjective mind-boggling to... Really scary, too. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4225013.stm Yes, but only up to a point... It *is* scary, because those kids mouth off what they'd heard at home, which gives you an insight into what US (supposedly s much for liberty... All the while hating liberals g) *really is* - as bigoted as any other country. But you also need to adjust it for age group These are highschool teens. They've not been taught freedom of speech at home... Quite the opposite, they've been taught to keep their mouths closed and follow the party line. How many parents on this list, however liberal/progressive, have, never-ever, used the phrase: don't you dare speak to me like this! to a sulky child? The -accepted by necessity and excused by necessity - parental disregard for individuality is easily transfered to *other* authority, be it a priest or a president. And highschool teens tend to enlarge on everything they learn at home; as I said in private correspondence, I'm not sure whether it's due to trying to conterbalance lack of experience (facts) with stronger feelings, or to hormones being much louder than the grey matter, but there it is. I am tolerant. My son, until the past 4-5 yrs (he'll be 28 next week), was intolerantly tolerant, and is only now beginning to mellow out... So, there is still some hope for those deluded kids, and for US at large. I hope... But I might be deluded myself :) And, of course, those kids may never get the chance to grow up into thinking individuals; the current administration does not encourage individual thinking any more than the Polish/USSR communist governments did... It's all by rote: Stalin's bright sun lights up the world, or: Bush's God conquers all infidels in a preemptive strike. Not a ha'p'orth of difference... -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
