Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Vi: I agree with you on these things, and I have also heard that it works, but I have to be honest with you...there is no way in hell that I would ever allow any of my kids to live on the streets. When they were kids or even now. I still feel that in order to avoid situations getting to this point, you have to start in infancy. You can't expect to let a kid do whatever he/she wants without any consequences, and then when they reach 10+ all of a sudden expect them to do what they are suppose to. It just doesn't work that way. IMO Kids are kids, they aren't small people. And parents should be parents, not friends. Kids need guidance and barriers. Not another playmate. And I also feel that a lot of parents are actually afraid of their kids, or they want to be liked by their kids. And that can lead to big problems. These are just my feelings on this thing, and I may be all wrong. Someone brought up something last night that made me wonder. Has anyone got the stats on how much the juvenile crime has gone up since spanking became a no-no. One of the guests on PI said that the rate has increased tremendously since spanking was eliminated. Sue Hi Kathy, Toughen and tighten the restrictions. No money, no use of family car, no new clothes, no home laundry facilities, no telephone or TV time. If they walk out on you, make sure the doors and windows are locked when they come home. Some people need tough love. Don't relent until they shape up. I'm told this approach works. If it doesn't, let them try living with their buddies and see how long that lasts! Then let them try the streets. The choice is theirs. This, above all. You must not become an ENABLER. Vi -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Parental responsibility was Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Sue :) I more than understand your position, and I think in a utopian world we would all like this, but in the real world things are much different. My main point is quite simply this, there are parent's that have done everything in their power to raise good children, or what society considers good children, but no matter what it's still the child's choice on what they do, if you threaten to put their parent's in jail, they really don't care. And that is my problem with this type of enforcement, you are punishing the wrong person. The child is doing the wrong, the child should go to jail. I realize there are people who are parent's that in reality shouldn't be, but I also realize the majority of people do care about their kids and what happens to them, yet we only seem to hear about the bad kids, mainly due to the fact that's the one every once notices. It's not that simple to have a child declared incorrigible in all states, it's a rather complicated and sometimes lengthy process. I don't see a solution in threatening a parent when it's the child who needs the discipline not the parent. If the parent can't control the child as happens in a lot of cases there could be other means, yes. Not all of them good. But, in the cases your looking at what do you do if a parent has done all they can, and raised three excellent children but one bad one? Do you seriously punish that parent for the bad child and not reward them due to the good children? Maybe instead of looking at the parent as the problem, they should look at the real problem the child who is causing all the disarray and misconduct. To sum it up I see this type of enforcement kind of like someone who kills another and they blame their killing on their parents for supposed abuse or neglect they felt when they were kids. I don't buy that defense at all, many people are abused and don't kill when they get older. Just as many kids have a damn hard life, but they can still make it if they want to. Put the blame where it belongs and quit trying to reflect it off of everyone except for the one who should be blamed. Sue Hartigan wrote: Hi Kathy: I'm certainly glad that you are back. BG I couldn't agree with you more about the laws taking a lot of the authority out of the parents hands. Other than protecting children from abuse, which definitely should be done, I think the authority to punish, reward, etc should be completely in the parents hands. Unfortunately it isn't any more. -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Viola Provenzano) writes: Hi Kathy, You remove their privileges and wow, do they ever shape up quickly! Think of "grounding" them, no televisiion, no telephone calls to or from their buddies, no desserts with their meals, meals in their room, no new clothes, abed by eight pm, no spending money. And one can think of so many more. If these sound trivial, in actual day-in, day-out practice they are devastating to the recipient and very effective IMO. Vi You wrote: . . .So my question is what do you suggest these parent's do? What if they have done all they could and the child just won't listen? What do you do then? _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Vi: I agree with everything you said here except sending them to their rooms. With the tv's, vcr's, video games, computers, etc. Most kids love an live in their rooms. :) I heard one woman say that she sends hers to the bathroom. Kinda a good idea IMO. They can't even use the excuse that they have to go to the bathroom then. LOL Sue Hi Kathy, You remove their privileges and wow, do they ever shape up quickly! Think of "grounding" them, no televisiion, no telephone calls to or from their buddies, no desserts with their meals, meals in their room, no new clothes, abed by eight pm, no spending money. And one can think of so many more. If these sound trivial, in actual day-in, day-out practice they are devastating to the recipient and very effective IMO. Vi -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Vi, And then what do you do when you do all of this and the child looks at you and tells you to Fu** off, and walks out the door to do what they please. That is what happens now days. You can tell them their not allowed to do the privileges anymore but it doesn't matter, if they don't listen to you. If they don't listen to the rules in the house in the first place what makes you think they are going to obey the restrictions? Viola Provenzano wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Viola Provenzano) writes: Hi Kathy, You remove their privileges and wow, do they ever shape up quickly! Think of "grounding" them, no televisiion, no telephone calls to or from their buddies, no desserts with their meals, meals in their room, no new clothes, abed by eight pm, no spending money. And one can think of so many more. If these sound trivial, in actual day-in, day-out practice they are devastating to the recipient and very effective IMO. Vi -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy: I'm certainly glad that you are back. BG I couldn't agree with you more about the laws taking a lot of the authority out of the parents hands. Other than protecting children from abuse, which definitely should be done, I think the authority to punish, reward, etc should be completely in the parents hands. Unfortunately it isn't any more. I have seen parents who are terrified to punish their kids for fear of reprisal from the law. And that shouldn't be. But parents should be responsible for what their kids do from the time that they are born until they reach 18, IMO. Our parents were. Of course you are going to have that kid that no matter what you do or say, he/she is going to do whatever they want anyway. And there is help out there for those parents. My parents had to have my sister declared incorrigible in order to get that help. But it worked. If you could listen to some of the phone calls my husband has every night with parents you would see that there are a lot of parents who just don't give a damn. They have no idea where or what their kids are doing, and as long as they aren't bothered, they don't care. Riverside has set up a program where the parents are responsible financially for any damages that their kids do. And it has cut the graffiti down 50%. The kids are still punished but the parents either pay for the damage, or spend time in community service to pay off the damages. When kids don't go to school, and the parents are given multiple warnings of this, and they still don't attend, the parents are fined, and can be jailed. This has also helped. Only one parent has gone to jail, and she had numerous warnings before that happened. Some parents aren't like you or I where they make sure that their kids are where they are suppose to be, and not doing things that can get them into trouble. Some have no idea where their kids are at midnight. And I am talking about 11-12-13 year olds. :( Of course the person who commits the crime should be held liable. But if something were done to make sure that the kids had a little bit more respect for authority, and a lot more supervision, then maybe there wouldn't be any murders, etc to be held liable for. Unfortunately some times the law has to step in and make some parents responsible do what they should be doing all along. Just my opinion on this. Sue Oh what a fun thread to come back to! (VBG) First problem I see with your suggestion Sue is this, what if the parents have done everything they can do? Are you still going to hold them accountable for the actions of the children? You have put yourself btwn a rock and a hard place here, this is why. We have a lot of laws protecting children, as there should be but in doing that we also have taken the authority out of the hands of the parent's where it belongs. If you should try to punish your child you could now face charges of child abuse, and the kids know it, I have seen countless parent's say they can't punish their children if they do the child will call social services and turn them in for child abuse. So my question is what do you suggest these parent's do? What if they have done all they could and the child just won't listen? What do you do then? Perhaps we could try something new instead of laying the blame on everyone but the person committing the crimes, why don't we just lay the blame where it belongs on that person and that person only. There comes a time when we are all responsible for our own actions. If your responsible enough to kill someone your responsible enough to face the punishment for that crime. -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sooz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hello, Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This morning on the Today show a representative from Texas was on explaining why he was submitting a bill to have 11 year olds face the DP in Texas when they commit a capital offense. I saw that this morning, too, and was appalled at the thought. I think that there has to be a way to keep these children under the supervision of the cj system and NOT automatically release them when they reach a certain age. Unfortunately I have no answer how this could be done, perhaps after extensive rehabilitation and education and they meet certain standards they then could be released, in stages (?) What do you think? Sooz Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Sooz: To be honest I think that if they started holding parents responsible for their childrens actions at a younger age it would not get to this point. I can't see putting an 11 year old on death row, at the same time I think something has to be done to stop what is going on now. The one thing that this man said that I totally agree with is the fact that kids are not like they were when we were that age. At the same time though, they are still kids. If I were on a jury with an 11 year old facing the DP, no matter how I felt about the DP, I could not bring back a verdict of death. Parental responsibility would go a long way in helping relieve the situation that is now happening, IMO. And stronger punishments, but I can't go along with killing children. Sue Hello, Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This morning on the Today show a representative from Texas was on explaining why he was submitting a bill to have 11 year olds face the DP in Texas when they commit a capital offense. I saw that this morning, too, and was appalled at the thought. I think that there has to be a way to keep these children under the supervision of the cj system and NOT automatically release them when they reach a certain age. Unfortunately I have no answer how this could be done, perhaps after extensive rehabilitation and education and they meet certain standards they then could be released, in stages (?) What do you think? Sooz Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
"Linda D. Misek-Falkoff, Ph.D., J.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Life without parole is about as far as I can see when trying to view this. The idea of holding a child on death row until a certain age seems medieval; isn't this cruel and unusual per se? LDMF. --Sue Hartigan wrote: Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Sooz: To be honest I think that if they started holding parents responsible for their childrens actions at a younger age it would not get to this point. I can't see putting an 11 year old on death row, at the same time I think something has to be done to stop what is going on now. The one thing that this man said that I totally agree with is the fact that kids are not like they were when we were that age. At the same time though, they are still kids. If I were on a jury with an 11 year old facing the DP, no matter how I felt about the DP, I could not bring back a verdict of death. Parental responsibility would go a long way in helping relieve the situation that is now happening, IMO. And stronger punishments, but I can't go along with killing children. Sue Hello, Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This morning on the Today show a representative from Texas was on explaining why he was submitting a bill to have 11 year olds face the DP in Texas when they commit a capital offense. I saw that this morning, too, and was appalled at the thought. I think that there has to be a way to keep these children under the supervision of the cj system and NOT automatically release them when they reach a certain age. Unfortunately I have no answer how this could be done, perhaps after extensive rehabilitation and education and they meet certain standards they then could be released, in stages (?) What do you think? Sooz Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Dr. L.: Even LWOP would be very difficult for me (if on a jury) for an 11 year old. :( I do agree though that something has to be done. But I also think it should be done *before* it gets to this point. If they do go for the 11 year DP, when will they decide to lower it to 9-7, etc. Sue Life without parole is about as far as I can see when trying to view this. The idea of holding a child on death row until a certain age seems medieval; isn't this cruel and unusual per se? LDMF. --Sue Hartigan -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If they do go for the 11 year DP, when will they decide to lower it to 9-7, etc. Sue It surely does not matter at what age the cut off for the death penalty is made. If one believes in the death penalty, then the entire juvenile justice system needs to be eliminated, and the death penalty applied to ALL of society without regard to race, religion, sex or age. The death penalty would be reserved for certain heinous crimes with complete disregard for the demographic characteristics of the criminal. Ron (donning my asbestos armor once again ) 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some crimes and some criminals are just so horrendous though that the DP seems to be the only thing that fits them. One such person I can think of is Singleton. :( And I bet you would feel the same way about Singleton, if he had committed these crimes when he was 17, 14 or 11. I know I would, and I would gladly have pushed the plunger or pulled the switch for the state. You see, the heinous crime deserves the death penalty whether or not he was underage when he committed the crime. Ron 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: HI Ron: And I agree, but it just won't happen. Not until they get money, status, race, sex, etc out of the equation and put what should be looked at only into the trial. Which is the crime. Sue And I bet you would feel the same way about Singleton, if he had committed these crimes when he was 17, 14 or 11. I know I would, and I would gladly have pushed the plunger or pulled the switch for the state. You see, the heinous crime deserves the death penalty whether or not he was underage when he committed the crime. Ron -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does not compute. Bill Your listing of rights, that are only gained at the age of majority (smoking, drinking, driving, screwing) have nothing. absolutely nothing, to do with the punishment for a capital crime. You are saying that a child has a right to be sentenced to juvenile detention until age 18? BS, it does not compute . 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone came up with the idea that the defendant be behind a screen so that the jurors couldn't see him/her. :) Oh shoot, and here I thought I had an original idea. But then you would have to do something about the high profile attorneys too. That is an easy one. Don't let the attorneys know the characteristics of the defendant :-) 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI DP for 11 year olds
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron: Yeah Right. BG Cochran, Sheck, Bailey not knowing everything they could about their client. If for no other reason they would want to know if the guy could pay them their million dollar fees. LOL Sue But then you would have to do something about the high profile attorneys too. That is an easy one. Don't let the attorneys know the characteristics of the defendant :-) -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
