Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Sven Barth 
Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" :
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort 
wrote:
>>
>> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
>> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>>
> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't
know about *nix systems).

This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't
support 16-bit applications anymore.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread wkitty42 

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:25 PM, Marco van de Voort  
wrote: 
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Michael Schnell wrote: 
> > > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
> > > instant-gratification 
> > 
> > Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all. 
>  
> Why bother then, just pass them all, and forget about stressing any of them. 

exactly... social promotion in education and the work environment have really 
brought standards down over the last 20 (at least) years... we need to learn 
from our mistakes to move forward and achieve greater learning...



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread wkitty42 

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort  
wrote: 
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 05:14:14PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote: 
> > > Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good 
> > > educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not 
> > > contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much. 
> > > 
> > > How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact 
> > the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os). 
>  
> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and 
> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc) 

really? i just put an icon on the desktop that opens TP directly or it opens a 
console window in the necessary directory and they take it from there... this 
on winwhatever and OS/2... other things like timeslicing came later and were 
advanced techniques to work on...
 
> They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the 
> end 
> gave up. 

sadly this is understandable... too many give up too soon, these days, because 
they don't get instant gratification... kinda like the schools giving out those 
bumper stickers saying "proud parent of a high school student" vs the original 
"proud parent of an honor roll student" and similar... it is well known that 
constant (and many times undeserved) ego boosting results in less achievement 
and lower quality results... this is even seen in such things as simple 
exercising at the gym where trainers drive and praise you but your results take 
longer and longer to achieve...



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Dmitry Boyarintsev 
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
>
> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>
> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't
know about *nix systems).

How about Delphi's console applications? No 8.3 limitation, can be ran from
GUI.
Doesn't need to teach stdin/stdout as they are, instead teach for: "the
computer waits for user to type something in and press enter". As well as
stdout is actually "the window with text". No need to bother with working
dir as well.

And yet again, nothing but pure problem solving. (no guis, message queues,
event handlers etc).

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Marco van de Voort 
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 09:25:51PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from
> "Children" list of this page?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language

Looks like a list filled by the creators rather than the users.
 
> Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section.

With an IMHO totally wrong description, but let's nog go there. Life is too
short to rectify all unnecessary and false slights to Pascal.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Marco van de Voort 
On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 05:14:14PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> > Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
> > educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
> > contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.
> >
> > How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact
> the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)

They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the end 
gave up.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Marco van de Voort 
On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Michael Schnell wrote:
> > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
> > instant-gratification
> 
> Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all.

Why bother then, just pass them all, and forget about stressing any of them.

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Re: [Lazarus] qt project compilation failure

2013-10-14 Thread patspiper 

On 14/10/13 16:25, zeljko wrote:

On 10/14/2013 02:36 PM, patspiper wrote:

What am I doing wrong?


Trunk and 1.0.99 branch uses latest Qt bindings v.2.5, you're using 
v.2.1, so update your qt bindings and everything will be ok (libQt4Pas).

Also, if you use win32, new libQt4Pas.dll is in binaries (svn).


That did it. Thanks!

Maybe http://wiki.freepascal.org/Qt_Interface needs updating?

Stephano

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Re: [Lazarus] qt project compilation failure

2013-10-14 Thread zeljko 

On 10/14/2013 02:36 PM, patspiper wrote:

What am I doing wrong?


Trunk and 1.0.99 branch uses latest Qt bindings v.2.5, you're using 
v.2.1, so update your qt bindings and everything will be ok (libQt4Pas).

Also, if you use win32, new libQt4Pas.dll is in binaries (svn).

z.


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[Lazarus] qt project compilation failure

2013-10-14 Thread patspiper 

Hi,

I tried to compile an empty project in Lazarus (IDE built with gtk2) 
with qt widgetset, but got the following errors (note the duplication of 
linking):


Hint: Start of reading config file /home/me/.fpc.cfg
Hint: End of reading config file /home/me/.fpc.cfg
Free Pascal Compiler version 2.6.3 [2013/10/08] for i386
Copyright (c) 1993-2012 by Florian Klaempfl and others
Target OS: Linux for i386
Compiling /tmp/project1.lpr
Compiling unit1.pas
Compiling resource lib/i386-linux/project1.or
Linking /tmp/project1
/usr/bin/ld: warning: link.res contains output sections; did you forget -T?
lazarus-svn/lcl/units/i386-linux/qt/qtint.o: In function 
`TQTWIDGETSET__APPINIT':
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:230: undefined reference to 
`QApplication_hook_hook_commitDataRequest'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:232: undefined reference to 
`QApplication_hook_hook_saveStateRequest'
lazarus-svn/lcl/units/i386-linux/qt/qtint.o: In function 
`TQTWIDGETSET__SLOTCOMMITDATAREQUEST':
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:957: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_allowsInteraction'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:965: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_cancel'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:974: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_release'

project1.lpr(20,1) Error: Error while linking
/usr/bin/ld: warning: link.res contains output sections; did you forget -T?
lazarus-svn/lcl/units/i386-linux/qt/qtint.o: In function 
`TQTWIDGETSET__APPINIT':
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:230: undefined reference to 
`QApplication_hook_hook_commitDataRequest'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:232: undefined reference to 
`QApplication_hook_hook_saveStateRequest'
lazarus-svn/lcl/units/i386-linux/qt/qtint.o: In function 
`TQTWIDGETSET__SLOTCOMMITDATAREQUEST':
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:957: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_allowsInteraction'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:965: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_cancel'
lazarus-svn/lcl/interfaces/./qt/qtobject.inc:974: undefined reference to 
`QSessionManager_release'

project1.lpr(20,1) Error: Error while linking
project1.lpr(20,1) Fatal: There were 1 errors compiling module, stopping

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Stephano

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 10/12/2013 01:36 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
instant-gratification


Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Michael Schnell 

On 10/12/2013 09:18 PM, wkitt...@windstream.net wrote:

Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

IMHO the contrary is true.

Using Delphi (or Lazarus) you can concentrate on the problem solving , 
while doing status outputs and only-for-testing inputs is nearly for free.


You can argue that this (RAD) leads to being trained to do bad software, 
as for a _final_product_ it is much better to separate GUI oriented 
units from "Business logic" units (as this allows for better portability 
and easier maintenance).


But this is a completely different argument.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

2013-10-14 Thread Antonio Fortuny 

  
  

Le 12/10/2013 13:36, Marco van de Voort
  a écrit :


  On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

  
There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education
commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.

So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and
graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.

Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

  
  
One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
instant-gratification.

1

Antonio.

  

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  220, avenue de la Liberté
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