Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 09:08 AM, Martin Schreiber wrote: ... If course I do remember very well, how ifi works. For me, it is a really great idea to decently physically separate the "business logic" from the GUI without completely loosing the "RAD" features Delphi, Lazarus and mseGUI provide. At best you could develop the program with a local GUI and then set a switch to compile it as an ifi Server. Regarding the OP's question: I suppose regarding ifi "socket" includes "WebSockets". So the server site seems to be in place. As the "ifi" byte stream is well defined, it should be possible to do the server and the client in different languages/environments. Thus as a client "Browser plugin" you could do a pascal program, which seemingly would be rather easy to do, but would need installing it at the client site, which in some environments (we did get burnt :( ) is impossible due to IT guide lines (aka incompetence). Thus other ways could be considered: - compiling the pascal code with Delphi Prism to a CIL plugin and use Silverlight / Moonlight to run it in the browser sandbox. - re-implement the client site of the library in java script. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/29/2013 11:22 PM, Dariusz Mazur wrote: Could You mention this problems? I did not do tests myself, but when researching I was told that some Web servers would kill the connection to the client and/or the fast-cgi and would not recover decently. At that time I did not know about WebSockets. This now seems mere like the way to go. So I would not invest more effort in Comet. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Is there an industry language for specifying for declaring GUIs in JSON?
On 12/01/2013 04:57 PM, vfclists . wrote: Are there some industry standards for specifying GUIs in JSON? See "Future of the Desktop" right here. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 01:44 PM, vfclists . wrote: The 'desktop' for Delphi developers where many FreePascal come from basically means Microsoft. AFAIK, the mother of the Desktop is X11, which IIRC was invented by Xerox (for headless Unix boxes). Using the siblings of same, we now have KDE and GNOME (and several more) in Linux. So IMHO Microsoft was a copycat (as always) but very successful (as always). -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] mtConfirmation where is Questionmark icon in resource
On 12/02/2013 08:50 AM, FreeMan wrote:
I tested that project on your link, its work normal on my system too,
libqt4 version is 5.2.5 on my system.
Thank you, we will see :)
I think that problem is not in libqt4pas but in real qt lib (libqt4 /
libqt4gui) ... maybe gcc version
z.
02-12-2013 08:37 tarihinde, zeljko yazdı:
On 12/01/2013 10:11 PM, FreeMan wrote:
Hello,
if MessageDlg('MsgLabel', mtConfirmation, [mbOK, mbCancel],0) = mrOk
then
mtConfirmation and mtInformation is same icon showing. If I'm not wrong,
mtConfirmation icon was questionmark ?
svn last update QT
kubuntu 13.10 x64
Seem that (k)ubuntu have some problems since question mark is visible
here (fedoras 32/64 ), also there are other strange issues reported
for qt 64bit under ubuntu http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=25316
which cannot be reproduced under other distros (I've tried fedora
14,16,19 32/64, suse 11.04, kubuntu 11.04,11.10)
I'm pretty sure that it's bug with qt lib package under that version
of ubuntu.
z.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Michael Schnell wrote: > AFAIK, the mother of the Desktop is X11, which IIRC was invented by Xerox > (for headless Unix boxes). X11 isn't the mother of desktop according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System#Predecessors "X originated at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 1984." "Several bitmap display systems preceded X. From Xerox came the Alto (1973) and the Star (1981). From Apollo Computer came Display Manager (1981). From Apple came theLisa (1983) and the Macintosh (1984). The Unix world had the Andrew Project (1982) and Rob Pike's Blit terminal (1982)." -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 02:24 PM, Andrew Brunner wrote: If you use HTTPS as the transport mechanism, you can assume code is secure and just execute it. Seemingly this is not good enough and that is why WebSockets seems to replace Comet. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 01:38 PM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Extpascal does wat mseide does. Transport everything back to the server. That is completely the wrong approach. Not scalable at all. A really scalable solution would have to provide both: - just compile the normal Lazarus / mseGUI based program and with a simple compiler switch - allow for running selectable parts of the application at the user site. This is what Microsoft intended by C# / CIL / .NET / Silverlight but seems to have dumped due to the overwhelming success of Java / Java Script in the mobile world. In fact mseIFI seems to intend to provide the scalability by allowing for Pascal Script at the user site. If your effort allows for compiling pascal to Java Script this might be even better at the client site, but IMHO this is not an argument against the "ifi" way of communicating between client and server, as IMHO it makes a lot of sense to allow for gradually migrate parts of the "business logic" code from server to client without much porting effort. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 02:24 PM, Andrew Brunner wrote: The more server off-loading the better. This was the idea behind Silverlight. But seemingly Silverlight is not actively supported any more, which IMHO makes the idea of C# / CIL / .net rather senseless (obsolete). -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 11/30/2013 04:28 PM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Easy: Because of all the advantages that Pascal has over the mess that Javascript is. +1 (so your idea would be a nice option to do javascript stuff even with no gui actions involved) The inventors of Javascript should be publicly flogged on the town square. You can choose any town you like. The bigger, the better ;) :-) :-) :-) -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
lost in translation: simple compiler switch ... convert it (e.g.) in a cgi with a browser based remote GUI. -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
Michael Schnell wrote: On 11/30/2013 01:44 PM, vfclists . wrote: The 'desktop' for Delphi developers where many FreePascal come from basically means Microsoft. AFAIK, the mother of the Desktop is X11, which IIRC was invented by Xerox (for headless Unix boxes). The mother of the /desktop/, i.e. with printer and trash icons displayed, is the Xerox Star, but X is a completely distinct lower-level. If you want to compare Xerox's desktop ideas with anything then you should be going directly to KDE and Gnome, and leaving X out of it. X came from MIT, which means that in principle at least it inherited from some of the very earliest multiuser work while Xerox was more oriented towards singleuser workstations (some of which were physically big, as I understand it their Artificial Intelligence Workstation was a full 19" rack). Using the siblings of same, we now have KDE and GNOME (and several more) in Linux. Careful there, I think you're at risk of mixing layers again. Qt and GTK are normally implemented on top of X11, although Qt also has a fairly wide selection of other substrates. GTK is also being forced in that direction since a number of players- particularly Ubuntu- are experimenting with graphical subsystems which provide roughly the same services as X11 but are designed from the ground up with a different emphasis (e.g. single-user with no provision for serialising the API over the LAN or a pipe). So IMHO Microsoft was a copycat (as always) but very successful (as always). But reminding people who are devoted to their products of that particular point is not always helpful :-) -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 12/02/2013 10:55 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote: I think you're at risk of mixing layers again. Of course you are absolutely right and I do know this. But I replied to Microsoft being the inventor of the desktop we are using. And Microsoft does not use a (publicly) defined X layer but that layer is an integral part of what is perceived as the thingy that holds the programs' GUIs (and might be called "Desktop"). -Michael -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
Am 02.12.2013 11:32 schrieb "Michael Schnell" : > But I replied to Microsoft being the inventor of the desktop we are using. Let's look at what you replied to: On 11/30/2013 01:44 PM, vfclists . wrote: The 'desktop' for Delphi developers where many FreePascal come from basically means Microsoft. So where did vfclists write that Microsoft invented the desktop? He just said that for Delphi developers (what quite some FPC users are or have been) the desktop means Microsoft. At least until XE2 with OS X support appeared. Regards, Sven -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
[Lazarus] Changing tempdir via startup parameters
Hi List, I can use --pcp=blablabla to make lazarus use a different config file, but, i wanna change a special setting: 'Temp Dir'. Is it possible? I wanna install Lazarus on a PenDrive and develop on any windows machine i plug it and i don't wanna use my pendrive as tempdir.. -- William de Oliveira Ferreira -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Changing tempdir via startup parameters
On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:29:37 -0200 William Oliveira Ferreira wrote: > Hi List, > > I can use --pcp=blablabla to make lazarus use a different config file, but, > i wanna change a special setting: 'Temp Dir'. Is it possible? The IDE uses the TEMP environment variable by default for the test directory. So you can set the environment variable. Or you can set the Test directory to "$ENV(LAZTEMP)" without the quotes and then set the LAZTEMP environment variable. For example under Unix with bash: export LAZTEMP=~/tmp && ./lazarus > I wanna install Lazarus on a PenDrive and develop on any windows machine i > plug it and i don't wanna use my pendrive as tempdir.. Mattias -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
Michael Schnell schrieb: On 12/02/2013 10:55 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote: I think you're at risk of mixing layers again. Of course you are absolutely right and I do know this. But I replied to Microsoft being the inventor of the desktop we are using. And Microsoft does not use a (publicly) defined X layer but that layer is an integral part of what is perceived as the thingy that holds the programs' GUIs (and might be called "Desktop"). The first MS desktop was GEM, borrowed from Digital Research borrowed from Apple, I used it also on my Atari ST. License issues forced MS to create something slightly different, named Windows. The major difference of Windows (vs. GEM) is the added messaging system, with message pipes and loops, which turned the GEM event polling model upside down. Next come menus, which were moved from the screen into forms. The rest is technically almost the same, with only a different look to convince judges in defense against Apple and DRI claims. DoDi -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
On 12/2/2013 4:06 AM, Michael Schnell wrote: If your effort allows for compiling pascal to Java Script this might be even do you mean "java" or "javascript" above? ;) -- NOTE: No off-list assistance is given without prior approval. Please keep mailing list traffic on the list unless private contact is specifically requested and granted. -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Changing tempdir via startup parameters
thanks, i'll try it... 2013/12/2 Mattias Gaertner > On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:29:37 -0200 > William Oliveira Ferreira wrote: > > > Hi List, > > > > I can use --pcp=blablabla to make lazarus use a different config file, > but, > > i wanna change a special setting: 'Temp Dir'. Is it possible? > > The IDE uses the TEMP environment variable by default for the test > directory. So you can set the environment variable. > Or you can set the Test directory to "$ENV(LAZTEMP)" without the > quotes and then set the LAZTEMP environment variable. > For example under Unix with bash: > > export LAZTEMP=~/tmp && ./lazarus > > > > I wanna install Lazarus on a PenDrive and develop on any windows machine > i > > plug it and i don't wanna use my pendrive as tempdir.. > > > Mattias > > -- > ___ > Lazarus mailing list > Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org > http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus > -- William de Oliveira Ferreira -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
Actually, Microsoft has nothing to do with GEM, it was made by Digital Research. Also technically GEM is/was very different from Windows (GEM relies on interrupts and can run only a single program while Windows was multitasking from the start, GEM apps can be made by any DOS compiler that can issue interrupts and has the necessary header files, Windows apps require special compilers, etc). You can check FreeGEM for an up to date version (the source code of GEM was released a while ago and some people fixed bugs and added a few features). Both Microsoft and Digital Research were sued by Apple when their systems were released. DR decided to modify their 'desktop' program to disallow overlapping windows and removed the trash can (previously it looked very similar to Mac Finder) while Microsoft decided to counter Apple's claim. In fact Windows 2 was even more like Mac (overlapping windows vs Windows 1's tiled windows, more Mac-like colors, etc) and AFAIK even when Windows 3 was released, they hadn't settled yet on the case. Check http://toastytech.com/guis/guitimeline.html for a timeline, some history notes, screenshots, etc of various GUIs over time, from the first Alto to Windows 8.1 The site is slightly biased against Microsoft, but the historic comments are good. I've read about Microsoft's and Apple's history from a couple of books too (i like computer history) and i think whatever mentioned there is mostly right. I haven't checked everything in the site though and i believe it misses some aspects (f.e. Lisa introduced more than just pulldown menus - f.e. the whole concept of finder was something new at the time and Andy Hertzfeld's book on the development of Macintosh has images from other prototypes that show how much the Mac and Lisa teams actually came up with that today we take granted). On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote: > Michael Schnell schrieb: > >> On 12/02/2013 10:55 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote: >>> >>> I think you're at risk of mixing layers again. >> >> Of course you are absolutely right and I do know this. >> >> But I replied to Microsoft being the inventor of the desktop we are using. >> And Microsoft does not use a (publicly) defined X layer but that layer is >> an integral part of what is perceived as the thingy that holds the programs' >> GUIs (and might be called "Desktop"). > > > The first MS desktop was GEM, borrowed from Digital Research borrowed from > Apple, I used it also on my Atari ST. License issues forced MS to create > something slightly different, named Windows. The major difference of Windows > (vs. GEM) is the added messaging system, with message pipes and loops, which > turned the GEM event polling model upside down. Next come menus, which were > moved from the screen into forms. The rest is technically almost the same, > with only a different look to convince judges in defense against Apple and > DRI claims. > > DoDi > > > > -- > ___ > Lazarus mailing list > Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org > http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
We need a desktop development history page on the wiki. It is not FPC or Lazarus related, but something that's interesting to read for a developer :) -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] The future of desktop
Kostas Michalopoulos schrieb: Actually, Microsoft has nothing to do with GEM, it was made by Digital Research. Right, but it was the first desktop presented by Microsoft. Also technically GEM is/was very different from Windows (GEM relies on interrupts and can run only a single program while Windows was multitasking from the start, I'm not sure what GEM has to do with multitasking. GEM apps can be made by any DOS compiler that can issue interrupts and has the necessary header files, Windows apps require special compilers, etc). I don't see a need for an special Windows compiler. The only requirement is a linker that links the resources into the executable. This was a separate program for a long time, in addition to the compiler and linker. DoDi -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] Is there an industry language for specifying for declaring GUIs in JSON?
On 2 December 2013 08:25, Michael Schnell wrote: > On 12/01/2013 04:57 PM, vfclists . wrote: > >> >> Are there some industry standards for specifying GUIs in JSON? >> > See "Future of the Desktop" right here. > > -Michael > > -- > ___ > Lazarus mailing list > Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org > http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus > I am already following that thread. What I have in mind is using Lazarus/FreePascal forms as purely presentation layer, not for Pascal programs alone, but any language, DWScript, Python, bash, Basic, whatever even DWScript In effect the form opens a web server or another type socket where the business layer sends the screen drawing commands to. Whereas a browser is pull system, this is a both pull and push When I did some Googling, knockout.js a framework that came up, something similar for Lazarus is what I have in mind. FreePascal, LCL, fpGUI etc are the system I know and the best foundation for a high performance cross platform presentation layer that I can think of. I think parsing QML or a reasonable subset for building Lazarus UIs as an alternative to .lfm and .dfm files is where the future of the Lazarus/FreePascal lies. I wouldn't say the future, but it is area where the Pascal development ecosystem can experience a revival. It is rapidly loosing ground to programming languages which can be are interpreted, JITed, compiled, and have garbage collection, not just in usage, but in performance as well. I think my vision warrants a separate blog post. I know what I want, I just don't have the technical know how to accomplish it. -- Frank Church === http://devblog.brahmancreations.com -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] How to exec some gdb command on start in lazarus
It may be a late reply, but for somebody interested: it is possible to
achieve this by altering lazarus source file debugger/gdbmidebugger.pp (as
previously mentioned by Martin). But line actually should be
if (Assigned(FTheDebugger)) then
FTheDebugger.ExecuteCommand('handle SIGPIPE ignore noprint pass', [],
[cfNoMiCommand, cfIgnoreState, cfExternal]);
after the "ExecuteCommand('-gdb-set language pascal', [cfCheckError]); "
line.
In the Lazarus v1.0.12 this is somewhere near line 4344
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