Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-08 14:27, Aradeonas wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now

Yes, the Free Pascal project has had something like that for years,
called fppkg. Unfortunately there is only 3 or so packages in there (at
least the last time I checked, some 3 years ago), and they don't seem to
accept more, or they are waiting for something - but I'm not sure what
exactly. The FPC team also don't seem to promote it at all.

Somebody also created a LCL based gui-frontend to it, but again I have
no idea who is maintaining the server that fppkg talks to, or how to
actually submit packages into it.

[~]$ fppkg list
Name InstalledAvailable
embweb   -0.9.1-968
gecko-2.9.0-3
jquery   -0.9.0-842
lazmkunit-0.9.3-1
lnet -0.6.6-2606
webdesign-0.9.0-906

Ah, now there are 5 packages. :)

Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

It seems there is need for a new one.If any one want to help or have a
point for me tell me so I consider it.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-08 21:22, Aradeonas wrote:
> It seems there is need for a new one.

I don't think there is technically anything wrong with fppkg that a new
one is needed. The FPC team simply needs to be more forthcoming about it
and let developers know if and how they can submit new packages. I have
quite a few I would like to add to it.

But yes, if the FPC team are not interested in running such a package
system, then setting up a new server is probably the way to go. I
haven't looked, but I'm pretty sure the fppkg code is all open source
too, so making it point to a different location or making it
configurable or something should be easily doable.

Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Probably if I understand it I will use it or maybe make a new one on it.
As Marco always said if you want it so make it your self and the team
are very busy so id I can I will,but I should investigate on it first.
So as I said if any one of team member or others have point before I
make it please say so I dont go the wrong way or consider what they
say.Including you dear Graeme.


Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Sat, 8 Aug 2015, Aradeonas wrote:


Probably if I understand it I will use it or maybe make a new one on it.
As Marco always said if you want it so make it your self and the team
are very busy so id I can I will,but I should investigate on it first.
So as I said if any one of team member or others have point before I
make it please say so I dont go the wrong way or consider what they
say.Including you dear Graeme.


Fppkg is working fine. Technically it is OK.
It is well integrated with fpmake (as intended).

What is missing is manpower to set up a website, repository and whatnot.

If you want to help set up a repository, website for submissions and whatnot, 
that would be very much appreciated.


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Ok I will read more about it.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this
> subject? If yes I want to help.

The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
is broken. It should be fixed or removed.

We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus resources.
The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.

Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions :

1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?

2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.

3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.

4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
meta-packages somewhere.

5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
This may have synergy with fppkg again.

If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
make a plan with some diagrams even.
I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Kostas Michalopoulos]

I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.

lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you
need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository
although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e.
personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).

IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:

 1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make
them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should
be after installation, with the lpk and all.
 2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk
file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
 3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository
and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once
the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the
dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in
some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like
that) and the lpk files installed.
 4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.

I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like
(like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with
better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later
and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The
other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.

I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal
work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled
(and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).


On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen 
wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> > Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on
> this
> > subject? If yes I want to help.
>
> The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
> There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
> is broken. It should be fixed or removed.
>
> We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus
> resources.
> The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
> package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.
>
> Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions
> :
>
> 1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?
>
> 2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
> containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
> resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.
>
> 3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
> Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.
>
> 4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
> The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
> meta-packages somewhere.
>
> 5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
> This may have synergy with fppkg again.
>
> If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
> make a plan with some diagrams even.
> I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
> If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
> first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.
>
> Regards,
> Juha
>
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Kostas Michalopoulos]

Of course I meant that I would *NOT* make this more complicated than
necessary...

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Kostas Michalopoulos <
badsectorac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.
>
> lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you
> need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository
> although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e.
> personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).
>
> IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:
>
>  1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make
> them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should
> be after installation, with the lpk and all.
>  2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk
> file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
>  3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository
> and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once
> the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the
> dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in
> some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like
> that) and the lpk files installed.
>  4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.
>
> I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like
> (like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with
> better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later
> and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The
> other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.
>
> I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal
> work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled
> (and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas 
>> wrote:
>> > Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on
>> this
>> > subject? If yes I want to help.
>>
>> The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
>> There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
>> is broken. It should be fixed or removed.
>>
>> We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus
>> resources.
>> The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
>> package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.
>>
>> Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open
>> questions :
>>
>> 1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?
>>
>> 2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
>> containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
>> resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.
>>
>> 3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
>> Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.
>>
>> 4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
>> The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
>> meta-packages somewhere.
>>
>> 5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
>> This may have synergy with fppkg again.
>>
>> If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
>> make a plan with some diagrams even.
>> I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
>> If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
>> first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Juha
>>
>> --
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>>
>
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Thank you Kostas yes it will begin simple but it should be ready for all
the options. Juha yes you are right and I will get your help ;)

Regards, Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> Thank you Kostas yes it will begin simple but it should be ready for all the
> options.
> Juha yes you are right and I will get your help ;)

Yes, I also want to see this feature soon.

This process may have unexpected problems which are already solved in fppkg.
That's why I think fppkg should be studied well.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Me too.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

It may be rather easy using HTTP or FTP download like fppkg is doing.
Some of its code can be used.
The package list must be one file (just like fppkg uses) to minimize
server load.
The package format cannot be shared with fppkg though.

I don't think the server load will be a problem. The packages contain
only textual source files and are compressed. They will be small
enough.

Allowing users to comment and rate the packages may be the most
difficult part but it is not needed initially. It will require
authentication and dealing with malicious attacks and whatever.
Read-only is easy.

Aradeonas, if you start to implement this, you should reuse the fppkg
code as much as possible. The design looks good.
The fpmake related stuff and the package format cannot be reused.
Also the client must be a Lazarus IDE package with a nice GUI instead
of a cmd line program.
Looking good so far ...

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[luiz americo pereira camara]

Em 08/08/2015 21:49, "Kostas Michalopoulos" 
escreveu:
>
> I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.
>
> lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you
need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository
although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e.
personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).
>
> IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:
>
>  1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make
them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should
be after installation, with the lpk and all.

I would make even simpler by not requiring to zip and upload to a server
the package and corresponding files. I would download from the SCM (
git/svn) directly, like bower does. The data necessary to register the
package would be name, description, dependencies, the SCM type, and the
repository URL.

Luiz

>  2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk
file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
>  3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository
and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once
the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the
dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in
some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like
that) and the lpk files installed.
>  4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.
>
> I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like
(like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with
better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later
and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The
other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.
>
> I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal
work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled
(and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen 
wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas 
wrote:
>> > Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on
this
>> > subject? If yes I want to help.
>>
>> The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
>> There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
>> is broken. It should be fixed or removed.
>>
>> We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus
resources.
>> The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
>> package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.
>>
>> Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open
questions :
>>
>> 1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?
>>
>> 2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
>> containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
>> resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.
>>
>> 3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
>> Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.
>>
>> 4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
>> The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
>> meta-packages somewhere.
>>
>> 5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
>> This may have synergy with fppkg again.
>>
>> If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
>> make a plan with some diagrams even.
>> I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
>> If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
>> first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Juha
>>
>> --
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Im agree with Luiz,Its better to have them in a server as a pack,because
as you (Juha) said we dont want do any force dependency on anything like
Git or Github so we can cache the packages in a server as a zip but for
a job like this I want to read previous and others work completely and
make a stable structure for future but we should use previous works.

Regards, Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-09 23:30, luiz americo pereira camara wrote:
> I would download from the SCM (
> git/svn) directly, like bower does. The data necessary to register the
> package would be name, description, dependencies, the SCM type, and the
> repository URL.

I would suggest the same idea. Take a look at how the FreeBSD "ports"
system works. Much can be learned from that.

For those that don't know FreeBSD ports system, here is a short explanation:

* The ports information lives in a directory hierarchy. The first level
  defines the group in which each packages belongs: eg: devel, editors,
  games, audio etc. Then inside those you have a directory for each
  package.

* Each package directory contains a couple of files and one "files"
  directory:
   - distinfo:  lists the source archive name, its size and SHA256
checksum value
   - Makefile:  describes the version number of the package, category
the package belongs too, where the port can be
downloaded from (straight from SF.net, Github etc),
package maintainer's email address, dependencies
and compiler options (user configurable at build time).
   - pkg-descr: full multi-line description of the package
   - pkg-plist: full list of installed files (including path
information)
   - files/ any small patches that get applied to the unpacked
source archive before it gets compiled.

The whole "ports" directory hierarchy lives in a code repository. The
end-user (developer in this case) can update their local copy from time
to time. Package source code (release archives) get downloaded directly
from each projects original location on SF.net, Github, etc. Unpacking
the source archive for compilation happens in a temp directory inside
each package directory in the ports tree. Packages can also be marked as
Broken or Suspended for various reasons (eg: original source archive is
not available for download any more)

For Lazarus, the ports repository is the only "bandwidth" the Lazarus
server will use. A gui front-end can be written to update and search the
local ports tree.

A star rating system (optional) would probably need to be implemented at
the GUI front-end level, and could submit a rating via some web service.
Login could be made optional, but a simple registration will most likely
reduce "spam" and allow to keep track of who made ratings against what
packages.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

Thank you for the explanation Graeme.
I think its better to archive each version in Lazarus host or a central
is better way but get them when updated from the source so prevent
problems like availability , think as as a sync central, because as I
saw always be here and stable is a major points of Lazarus and one of
the reason I like it so much,it always there for you ;) .
About users probably we can use forum users info but let see what
happen.

The most important part is it make easy to use packages and sharing them
so increase the power of community and get more attention on each other
work and attract new users to this brilliant space ;)

I'm researching about all same services ,next make plan and structure
after reading exist codes and then invite every people that want work on
some part of this if they want.

For now I'm interested in community opinions so keep them in mind while
the researching and planning.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> Im agree with Luiz,Its better to have them in a server as a pack,

No, Luiz suggested the opposite, to download from SCM directly without
any packs.
I don't know why people are obsessed with SCM tools for a feature that
does not need them and certainly should not depend on them.

> because as you (Juha) said we dont want do any force dependency on
> anything like Git or Github so we can cache the packages in a server as a zip
> [...]

Dependency on Github web site / service is OK.
Dependency on Git tool for all Lazarus users in a no-go.

In fact I like the FreeBSD ports system. Does it depend on SCM tools
or does it download some ready made Zip packages from GitHub and other
sites?
Both ways have a problem : It is easy to get only the latest version
of a package. Projects can depend on old versions, too.

Anyway we should add support for different download sites for the
Lazarus packages, in the spirit of FreeBSD ports.
Maybe like this :

Phase 1 :
Support zipped meta-packages but allow to download them from any URL
(HTTP or FTP).
The difference to Kostas' minimal design is that the Lazarus .lpk
files are not needed separately. The client can extract them and check
dependencies. Having dependency info in other places would be
duplicate info.
A list of available packages must be in one file. Doing a FTP
directory listing eats resources.
Note: no server side SW is needed.

Phase 2 :
Support also downloading from sites hosting code (SF, GitHub etc.)
when they provide direct download.
Using the SCM tools directly cannot be supported because we cannot
impose such a dependency for the cross-platform Lazarus.
Still no server side SW is needed.

Phase 3 :
Support user rating and comments for packages.
Support using the SCM tools from server. When a download URL refers to
a SCM repo, the server SW loads the sources and zips a meta-package.
Clients can use that package directly.
Server side SW is needed obviously.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

I read it wrongly,No I dont like getting directly because of many
reasons like their services limit and the soul of "no force dependency
on others" of FPC and Lazarus. 

I think we are the same page.

Its good to have a server that get around packages together from
supported sources and  so on.
There is one tiny problem that keep packages uptodate, we can sync as
package maintainer update it in a client tools or we can sync it in a
cycle . not decided yet.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> The most important part is it make easy to use packages and sharing them
> so increase the power of community and get more attention on each other
> work and attract new users to this brilliant space ;)

Yes but let's leave the spirit elevation speeches and do some code. :)
Well, I can promise to do code myself only after a month or so. I have
other activities and the weather is good etc.
I will hopefully get a new computer within a month, too. Now using a
mini-laptop.
Yet I promise to read and write mails.

> I'm researching about all same services ,next make plan and structure
> after reading exist codes and then invite every people that want work on
> some part of this if they want.

I can see you are new to open source. "Inviting every people to work"
does not work. You must create some working code first yourself and
then others _may_ join but it is not sure even then.
If you study the existing package manager systems too much, you will
be very confused.
The tools may have advanced server SW, Python, JS, web user interfaces etc.
KISS.

> For now I'm interested in community opinions so keep them in mind while
> the researching and planning.

Don't count on community opinions too much either. Everybody has lots
of opinions but very few people are willing to implement them.
It is so easy to suggest something "advanced" as long as somebody else
implements it.
The person who actually implements things has more voting power.
That's how it must be.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

> Yes but let's leave the spirit elevation speeches and do some code.
Im working on it before making topic but as many others here Im also
busy with some projects but the difference is I like it and Im working
on it no matter what ;)
> Well, I can promise to do code myself only after a month or so. I have
other activities and the weather is good etc. You want to work on
this?if yes what parts do you like so I save it for you.I have problem
with IDE ingerations becuase I dont know much about it.
> I can see you are new to open source.
Yes but what Im saying is just a testing and I know from past I should
make it my self.
> invite every people that want work on some part of this if they want
I said if they want and probably no one want but it worth to know ;)
> Don't count on community opinions too much either. Everybody has lots
of opinions but very few people are willing to implement them. It is so
easy to suggest something "advanced" as long as somebody else implements
it. The person who actually implements things has more voting power.
That's how it must be. As I said I know from past I should make it my
self but I always like hearing others opinion, and if any one want to
help so make a tam on that.

Regards, Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Aradeonas  wrote:
> There is one tiny problem that keep packages uptodate, we can sync as
> package maintainer update it in a client tools or we can sync it in a
> cycle . not decided yet.

Supporting package update from the client tools would require user
authentication and server side SW etc.
At least initially it must be done by admins who have direct access to
the server.
It means that authors can host their packages somewhere else and then
provide patches for the package list in our server, listing the URL
for their server.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Juha Manninen wrote:


It may be rather easy using HTTP or FTP download like fppkg is doing.
Some of its code can be used.
The package list must be one file (just like fppkg uses) to minimize
server load.
The package format cannot be shared with fppkg though.


Why not ? fppkg just needs a zip file, and expects a fpmake.pp.

The fpmake.pp is easily translatable to lazarus package and vice versa.

If additional functionalities are needed, we can add whatever is necessary.



I don't think the server load will be a problem. The packages contain
only textual source files and are compressed. They will be small
enough.

Allowing users to comment and rate the packages may be the most
difficult part but it is not needed initially. It will require
authentication and dealing with malicious attacks and whatever.
Read-only is easy.

Aradeonas, if you start to implement this, you should reuse the fppkg
code as much as possible. The design looks good.


I hope so :)


The fpmake related stuff and the package format cannot be reused.


See above, why not ?


Also the client must be a Lazarus IDE package with a nice GUI instead
of a cmd line program.


fpmake was designed to have a GUI from day 1.
It was thought through, you know :)

All that fpmake does is register some units and then start the 
builder/installer.
A descendent of the builder/installer can be created to start a GUI.

If someone needs an explanation of how this is done, I can provide whatever is 
needed.

As for repositories: I have no problem letting the initial/master repositories 
be hosted
on the FPC server. Any package can be uploaded, dependencies are not an issue.

The only thing I ask is that if a web-interface is made, and it needs a 
database,
it depends only on postgres or firebird. No mysql. Preferably the backend of the
web interface is made with FPC, but any other technology is fine 
(PHP being at the bottom of the list because I consider it a security leak).


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[luiz americo pereira camara]

Em 10/08/2015 06:30, "Juha Manninen"  escreveu:
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Aradeonas 
wrote:
> > Im agree with Luiz,Its better to have them in a server as a pack,

>
> In fact I like the FreeBSD ports system. Does it depend on SCM tools
> or does it download some ready made Zip packages from GitHub and other
> sites?
> Both ways have a problem : It is easy to get only the latest version
> of a package.

The SCM allows to retrieve older versions like tags or even specific
revisions.

In fact, allows to have  multiplex versions without the burden of havê to
upload every time a new version is released.

About using SCM to something that does not need: really it does not need
but would make the feature more flexible and easier to maintain (think of
the server maintanance and how a shutdown would affect the Lazarus users).

Luiz

>
> Anyway we should add support for different download sites for the
> Lazarus packages, in the spirit of FreeBSD ports.
> Maybe like this :
>
> Phase 1 :
> Support zipped meta-packages but allow to download them from any URL
> (HTTP or FTP).
> The difference to Kostas' minimal design is that the Lazarus .lpk
> files are not needed separately. The client can extract them and check
> dependencies. Having dependency info in other places would be
> duplicate info.
> A list of available packages must be in one file. Doing a FTP
> directory listing eats resources.
> Note: no server side SW is needed.
>
> Phase 2 :
> Support also downloading from sites hosting code (SF, GitHub etc.)
> when they provide direct download.
> Using the SCM tools directly cannot be supported because we cannot
> impose such a dependency for the cross-platform Lazarus.
> Still no server side SW is needed.
>
> Phase 3 :
> Support user rating and comments for packages.
> Support using the SCM tools from server. When a download URL refers to
> a SCM repo, the server SW loads the sources and zips a meta-package.
> Clients can use that package directly.
> Server side SW is needed obviously.
>
> Juha
>
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Aradeonas]

> If someone needs an explanation of how this is done, I can provide
> whatever is needed.

Ok,I really want to hear from you about this.

> The only thing I ask is that if a web-interface is made, and it needs
> a database,
it depends only on postgres or firebird. No mysql. Preferably the
backend of the web interface is made with FPC, but any other technology
is fine (PHP being at the bottom of the list because I consider it a
security leak).

Firebird can be good choice although it been years I didnt work with it
but No problem,happy to work with it again. About backend I will insist
on a FPC backend ,when our language work well why use another? ;)

Regards, Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[silvioprog]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Aradeonas  wrote:

> [Cross posted on forum so if you want answer there 
> :http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,29284.0.html 
> ]
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I saw Embarcadero's Getit
>  that introduced
> in Delphi XE8 and I think it can help Lazarus and it's community very well.
> As you know these days more IDE's make this systems and its
> good,collecting all packages and make it easy to use like a store.
> Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on
> this subject? If yes I want to help.
>
> Regards,
> Ara
>

Very nice idea!

I use something like this in other languages and it is very useful (NPM,
Gradle, Maven, APT, Yum etc). The NPM project uses a nice approach: "keep
your project in your repository (Github, Bitbucket etc) that we will
publish it as-is", see an example: https://www.npmjs.com/package/express
(although you found Express in NPM, this package is hosted in Github
https://github.com/strongloop/express).

So you can install a new package localy in your project just performing
"npm install some-packe" (even a new project, "npm install new-project",
and you can start it too, "npm start"), or global, performing "npm install
some-package -g", and to init a new "packages.json", just perform "npm
init". In Lazarus, the local installation could be in the project's folder,
and the global installations could be done in the "lazarus/components"
folder, eg: "lpm install -g synapse", or "lpm install
some-project-or-package-hosted-in-github --save" (--save saves all sources
of you package). =)

Some times ago I saw a online package in CodeTyphon project too, but I
don't remember how it does that, but you can take a look on it. =)

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:
> Why not ? fppkg just needs a zip file, and expects a fpmake.pp.
> The fpmake.pp is easily translatable to lazarus package and vice versa.

Now I have a gap in my knowledge.
I thought that fpmake is a replacement for "make", not for Lazarus packages.
I want to understand this topic better.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-10 14:42, Juha Manninen wrote:
> I want to understand this topic better.

fppkg and fpmake works together. fpmake can generate a zip archive and a
manifest file for use with fppkg server.

Take a look at fpGUI's fpmake.pas unit.

$ cd /src/
$ fpc fpmake.pas
$ fpmake --help
Usage: ./fpmake command [options]
Where command is one of the following:
 compile  Compile all units in the package(s).
 buildBuild all units in the package(s).
 install  Install all units in the package(s).
 cleanClean (remove) all units in the package(s).
 archive  Create archive (zip) with all units in the package(s).
 manifest Create a manifest suitable for import in repository.
...snip...

$ ./fpmake archive --prefix=fpgui/
(you now have a fpgui-1.5.zip archive created

$ ./fpmake manifest
(you now have a manifest.xml file created - ready to submit to fppkg)


The only problem I have seen thus far is fpmake is hard-coded to look
for fpmake.pp, and my file is name fpmake.pas - I get this error because
of it. Simply rename it to .pp and the above works fine.

$ ./fpmake archive --prefix=fpgui/
The installer encountered the following error:
File "fpmake.pp" does not exist.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-10 10:17, Juha Manninen wrote:
> 
> Phase 3 :
> Support user rating and comments for packages.


Phase 4:
Build a "online store" where ISV's can sell their packages, and accept
Google Wallet, PayPal or BitCoin payments. ;-)



Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Juha Manninen wrote:


On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:

Why not ? fppkg just needs a zip file, and expects a fpmake.pp.
The fpmake.pp is easily translatable to lazarus package and vice versa.


Now I have a gap in my knowledge.
I thought that fpmake is a replacement for "make", not for Lazarus packages.
I want to understand this topic better.


It is both.

Sources are divided in packages. 
A package is defined as a set of units that are built together.


fpmake does 2 things:
- It enumerates the units that make up the package.
- It has some metadata: author, version, description.
- It provides exact build instructions for the units.
- As part of the build instructions, dependencies between packages but also 
between units can (and must) be specified.

As you can see, this is the equivalent of a lazarus package, and even a little better 
since lazarus (currently) does not manage dependencies between units.


fpmake can also
- Compile the units/programs
- Create a manifest file (this is the equivalent of a package file, it's also 
XML)
- Create a source zip 
- Onstall the units where the compiler can find them (this would not be needed for lazarus packages)

- Create the documentation.
- I have an extension (uncommitted) where it also can compile and run a 
testsuite.

This is currently the domain of the lazarus IDE or lazbuild.

So,

one possible working scheme that was originally though of:
- use fpmake/fppkg as package format
- Inside lazarus, let fpmake generate a lazarus package (should be a no-brainer)
- Lazarus loads/compiles the generated package
Another possible working scheme is:
- use fpmake/fppkg as package format
- Lazarus packager detects fpmake and calls it to compile everything as well as 
generate a lazarus package.
- Lazarus loads the generated package

A third (but very improbable, I suspect ;) ) possibility is that lazarus 
switches building of packages to fppkg.
It was designed to make this possible.

Probably there are some variations possible.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Tony Whyman]

This is a very good idea and IMHO something that should be given a high 
priority. However, rather than chat about solutions, I'd like to propose 
some user requirements:


1. The Package Distribution Model should be similar to if not based on 
the approach used for the Debian and RPM Package Managers.


For example, I have my own Debian repository on an intranet that 
supplements the Ubuntu and Mint repositories and from which I can 
distribute company applications and backports where the standard package 
is not sufficiently up-to-date.


I would like to be able to do the same with Lazarus/FPC packages.

2. Packages should be similar to deb/rpm packages comprising a standard 
archive with the files given in their installation layout, plus a list 
of dependent packages and version information.


Unlike deb/rpm packages, the installation layout should be relative 
rather than absolute as the target directory should be under the user's 
account e.g. (/home/tony/.lazarus/packages for Linux). A different 
location may be preferred for examples - which could be in separate 
packages.


3. Locally installed packages (i.e. under the user account) should 
override and replace packages with the same name installed at the system 
level.


4. All packages in the repository should be signed (e.g. using a GPG 
user key). Only packages signed using a known key should be allowed to 
install.


5. Access to the repository should use http/https allowing the client to 
GET an individual package or download a list of packages and direct 
dependencies.


6. The package manager client should have both command line and GUI 
(part of Lazarus IDE) versions.


7. The client should be configurable with an ordered list of known 
repositories.


8. The client should allow available packages to be browsed/searched.

9. The client should manage a list of known (and trusted) signing 
(public) keys and validate the signature on any downloaded package.


10. Selecting a package to be installed should automatically select all 
required dependencies, installing any that are not currently installed.


11. When a runtime package is installed, the package is registered with 
the IDE and added to the list of known packages.


12. When a design time package is installed, the package manager should 
offer to rebuild the IDE.


13. When a package is removed, the package manager should offer to 
remove all otherwise unused dependencies.


14. The package manager should support a check for updates and package 
upgrade.


15. The IDE should be configurable to support an automatic check for 
updated packages each time it starts. offering to upgrade any 
out-of-date packages.


16. Implementing the repository as a RESTful service could be 
interesting, allowing packages to be added and removed using 
(authenticated) PUT and DELETE methods in true cloud storage fashion.



Tony Whyman
MWA


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Tony Whyman wrote:

This is a very good idea and IMHO something that should be given a high 
priority. However, rather than chat about solutions, I'd like to propose some 
user requirements:


1. The Package Distribution Model should be similar to if not based on the 
approach used for the Debian and RPM Package Managers.


For example, I have my own Debian repository on an intranet that supplements 
the Ubuntu and Mint repositories and from which I can distribute company 
applications and backports where the standard package is not sufficiently 
up-to-date.


I would like to be able to do the same with Lazarus/FPC packages.



Supported by fppkg.

2. Packages should be similar to deb/rpm packages comprising a standard 
archive with the files given in their installation layout, plus a list of 
dependent packages and version information.


Supported.



Unlike deb/rpm packages, the installation layout should be relative rather 
than absolute as the target directory should be under the user's account e.g. 
(/home/tony/.lazarus/packages for Linux). A different location may be 
preferred for examples - which could be in separate packages.


Supported.



3. Locally installed packages (i.e. under the user account) should override 
and replace packages with the same name installed at the system level.


Should be doable.



4. All packages in the repository should be signed (e.g. using a GPG user 
key). Only packages signed using a known key should be allowed to install.


I don't see the point in that.



5. Access to the repository should use http/https allowing the client to GET 
an individual package or download a list of packages and direct dependencies.


Works.



6. The package manager client should have both command line and GUI (part of 
Lazarus IDE) versions.


Can be done with fppkg and fpmake.



7. The client should be configurable with an ordered list of known 
repositories.


Can be done with fppkg and fpmake.



8. The client should allow available packages to be browsed/searched.


Can be done.



9. The client should manage a list of known (and trusted) signing (public) 
keys and validate the signature on any downloaded package.


See 4.



10. Selecting a package to be installed should automatically select all 
required dependencies, installing any that are not currently installed.


Supported by fppkg and fpmake.



11. When a runtime package is installed, the package is registered with the 
IDE and added to the list of known packages.


Needs to be implemented.



12. When a design time package is installed, the package manager should offer 
to rebuild the IDE.


Needs to be implemented.



13. When a package is removed, the package manager should offer to remove all 
otherwise unused dependencies.


Needs to be implemented.



14. The package manager should support a check for updates and package 
upgrade.


Partially supported by fppkg.



15. The IDE should be configurable to support an automatic check for updated 
packages each time it starts. offering to upgrade any out-of-date packages.


Needs to be implemented.


16. Implementing the repository as a RESTful service could be interesting, 
allowing packages to be added and removed using (authenticated) PUT and 
DELETE methods in true cloud storage fashion.


Needs to be implemented, but is an interesting option in combination with the 
keys.

As you see, our requirements when designing fppkg are quite similar to yours.

There are only so many ways in which a useful package system can be made.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-10 16:15, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>> 3. Locally installed packages (i.e. under the user account) should override 
>> and replace packages with the same name installed at the system level.
> 
> Should be doable.


Already possible/supported. I've been doing something similar for years.
I have a unit path specified in my ~/.fpc.cfg. If I copy say my custom
version of the fpcunit.pp in there, whenever I compile the Lazarus GUI
Test Runner (or console runner), FPC uses my version, and not the one
included in FCL.

eg: Add the following at the beginning of your ~/.fpc.cfg file.


# apply custom fixes
-Fu/data/devel/myfixes/

I learned this tick from my years with Delphi 7 and Kylix 3.


>> 4. All packages in the repository should be signed (e.g. using a GPG user 
>> key). Only packages signed using a known key should be allowed to install.
> 
> I don't see the point in that.

+1



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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Tony Whyman]

On 10/08/15 16:15, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
4. All packages in the repository should be signed (e.g. using a GPG 
user key). Only packages signed using a known key should be allowed 
to install.


I don't see the point in that. 


An online repository is potentially vulnerable to:

- DoS Attacks
- Man in the middle attacks
- Unauthorised modification of repository data

DoS is probably out of scope and man in the middle could be countered by 
demanding https only. However, I don't think I would like to claim that 
any website is invulnerable to unauthorised modification. Hence why I 
propose that a digital signature is available for each file in the 
repository. The basic idea is that the signing key is only available to 
an authorised user (probably 3DES encrypted) and thus even if an 
attacker succeeds in uploading a malicious file, the attack is not 
unsuccessful unless the attacker can persuade the site administrator to 
sign the file.


This extra level of security should be sufficient to counter such an attack.

Tony



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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Juha Manninen]

On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:
> - As part of the build instructions, dependencies between packages but also
> between units can (and must) be specified.

Why is that?
Unit dependencies are already specified in uses sections of the units
themselves.

I will study the fpmake / fppkg stuff more soon ...

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Juha Manninen wrote:


On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Michael Van Canneyt
 wrote:

- As part of the build instructions, dependencies between packages but also
between units can (and must) be specified.


Why is that?
Unit dependencies are already specified in uses sections of the units
themselves.


Because then you can optimize the compilation process. 
If units are specified in the "wrong" order, they can be processed twice.


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-10 20:22, Juha Manninen wrote:
> Unit dependencies are already specified in uses sections of the units
> themselves.

In the case of fpGUI I couldn't create a single fpgui_toolkit.lpk
package that fully supports fpGUI, because depending on the platform, it
has different unit paths, and in some of those paths there are units
with the same name (which acts as a bridge between the backend and
front-end). A similar thing for include files used in the implementation
section of some units. So due to the limitations of Lazarus Packages, I
had to create two sets of fpgui_toolkit.lpk packages - one in the "x11"
directory, and one in the "gdi" directory. A real pain in my side. If I
start supporting other backends, then the package count would increase
even more.

With fpmake, it has sufficient flexibility so I only need a single
fpmake.pp no matter the platform or graphics backend.

Incidently, due to the above mentioned limitations (and a few other
gripes), I'm moving more and more away from Lazarus Packages and rather
to a Macro based setup.

Unfortunately none of the IDE's I use currently support fpmake, so I
haven't used it much. But for console based compiling, it works very well.

Regards,
  - Graeme -

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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:


On 2015-08-10 20:22, Juha Manninen wrote:

Unit dependencies are already specified in uses sections of the units
themselves.


In the case of fpGUI I couldn't create a single fpgui_toolkit.lpk
package that fully supports fpGUI, because depending on the platform, it
has different unit paths, and in some of those paths there are units
with the same name (which acts as a bridge between the backend and
front-end). A similar thing for include files used in the implementation
section of some units. So due to the limitations of Lazarus Packages, I
had to create two sets of fpgui_toolkit.lpk packages - one in the "x11"
directory, and one in the "gdi" directory. A real pain in my side. If I
start supporting other backends, then the package count would increase
even more.

With fpmake, it has sufficient flexibility so I only need a single
fpmake.pp no matter the platform or graphics backend.


Incidentally: 
This is why we opted to make the "package format" fpmake.pp a pascal file.

It avoids heaps of tags, attributes, scripting additions or whatnot:
It allows for unlimited flexibility and every person making a package 
already knows Pascal.


Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2015-08-11 07:44, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> This is why we opted to make the "package format" fpmake.pp a pascal file.

A very wise move. :)

I guess fpmake.pp is exactly the same thing... I often write small
console tools to accomplish some tasks, because I can't bother the learn
the various *nix shell scripts and Windows batch file syntax. A single
Object Pascal console utility works everywhere.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

-- 
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Tue, 11 Aug 2015, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:


On 2015-08-11 07:44, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

This is why we opted to make the "package format" fpmake.pp a pascal file.


A very wise move. :)

I guess fpmake.pp is exactly the same thing... I often write small
console tools to accomplish some tasks, because I can't bother the learn
the various *nix shell scripts and Windows batch file syntax. A single
Object Pascal console utility works everywhere.


That is also the philosophy beyond instantfpc.

Michael.

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