Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Alexsander Rosa schrieb: Here in Brazil we've been always metric but we use "inches" sometimes. For example: most TV sets, computer monitors, diskettes (obsolete), water pipes (specially smaller sizes), surf boards and automobile wheels still are measured in inches. The conversion is easy: 1 in = 2.54 cm, 1 feet = 12 inches. My notebook has a 15" monitor; my first Intel PC had 5 1/4" diskette drives. Diskette sizes are defined in cm, the inches only are approximations for people that are unable to deal with metric sizes. DoDi -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/18 Alexsander Rosa : > Here in Brazil we've been always metric but we use "inches" sometimes. South Africa is similar, though sometimes TV sets are in cm too. eg: my TV set is a 74cm set. South Africa has used the metric system for as long as I can remember, but it is strange why the items you mentioned are still referencing inches (even in South Africa) - it makes no logical sense. :-/ -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:28:38 -0200 Alexsander Rosa wrote: > Here in Brazil we've been always metric but we use "inches" sometimes. For > example: most TV sets, computer monitors, diskettes (obsolete), water pipes > (specially smaller sizes), surf boards and automobile wheels still are > measured in inches. That's how it is in most "metric countries". This is not a country specific use of inches but forced upon consumers by the corresponding industry. Sorry for being OT R. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Here in Brazil we've been always metric but we use "inches" sometimes. For example: most TV sets, computer monitors, diskettes (obsolete), water pipes (specially smaller sizes), surf boards and automobile wheels still are measured in inches. The conversion is easy: 1 in = 2.54 cm, 1 feet = 12 inches. My notebook has a 15" monitor; my first Intel PC had 5 1/4" diskette drives. As a teenage I had a 5'11" surf board. My car has 17" wheels. 2009/12/18 Henry Vermaak > 2009/12/18 Graeme Geldenhuys : > > John wrote: > >> this century! (Not sure why we still mostly refer to monitors in inches > >> when Australia has been "metrified" for decades.) > > > > It's those fn Americans. :-) I think they are one of the last > countries > > in the world (read stubborn) that are still stuck with inches, miles, lbs > > etc... Oh God, and UK is still referencing weight in stones - that must > be > > even worse! :-D > > Haha, I still struggle with those. I need to tattoo the conversion > rates into my arm or something. > > Henry > > -- > ___ > Lazarus mailing list > Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org > http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus > -- Atenciosamente, Alexsander da Rosa Linux User #113925 "Extremismo na defesa da liberdade não é defeito. Moderação na busca por justiça não é virtude." -- Barry Goldwater -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/18 Graeme Geldenhuys : > John wrote: >> this century! (Not sure why we still mostly refer to monitors in inches >> when Australia has been "metrified" for decades.) > > It's those fn Americans. :-) I think they are one of the last countries > in the world (read stubborn) that are still stuck with inches, miles, lbs > etc... Oh God, and UK is still referencing weight in stones - that must be > even worse! :-D Haha, I still struggle with those. I need to tattoo the conversion rates into my arm or something. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: John wrote: this century! (Not sure why we still mostly refer to monitors in inches when Australia has been "metrified" for decades.) It's those fn Americans. :-) I think they are one of the last countries in the world (read stubborn) that are still stuck with inches, miles, lbs etc... Oh God, and UK is still referencing weight in stones - that must be even worse! :-D we got our I on you!! phbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbt :) :lol: -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
John wrote: > this century! (Not sure why we still mostly refer to monitors in inches > when Australia has been "metrified" for decades.) It's those fn Americans. :-) I think they are one of the last countries in the world (read stubborn) that are still stuck with inches, miles, lbs etc... Oh God, and UK is still referencing weight in stones - that must be even worse! :-D Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Marco van de Voort wrote: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 01:47:18PM +0200, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: 2009/12/17 Lance Collins : "... buy a larger monitor" ??:-) ??I like the way you think. Quick and easy solutions. I can buy a 24 inch 1080p LCD monitor for $A209. Perhaps Lazarus could standardize on 26" displays ready for version 1.0:-) What is an inch? How does inch translate to resolution? Anyway, Lazarus works fine on 2048x1536. 1080 vertical resolution is something so last century :-) Not at $A209 it is not last century! I hate to remember what I paid for my 19" (sorry, Marco) 1600 x 1200 CRT monitor, and that was definitely this century! (Not sure why we still mostly refer to monitors in inches when Australia has been "metrified" for decades.) Anyway, hi Lance, I am almost in Melbourne - Churchill, in Gippsland. cheers, John Sunderland -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 01:47:18PM +0200, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: > 2009/12/17 Lance Collins : > >> "... buy a larger monitor" ??:-) ??I like the way you think. Quick and easy > >> solutions. > > > > I can buy a 24 inch 1080p LCD monitor for $A209. > > > > Perhaps Lazarus could standardize on 26" displays ready for version 1.0:-) What is an inch? How does inch translate to resolution? Anyway, Lazarus works fine on 2048x1536. 1080 vertical resolution is something so last century :-) -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
I think Lance meant this for the mailing list and not to my personal account. 2009/12/17 Lance Collins : > >> >> "... buy a larger monitor" :-) I like the way you think. Quick and easy >> solutions. > > I can buy a 24 inch 1080p LCD monitor for $A209. > > Perhaps Lazarus could standardize on 26" displays ready for version 1.0:-) > > Cheers > Lance Collins > > p.s. Do you know of any Lazarus users in Melbourne? > > I can do a 'hello world' app but fail completely converting any of my Delphi > 7 stuff. > > Years ago I couldn't get anywhere with Delphi 2 until I had a one-on-one > session with a Delphi user for an hour to get started. > -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Henry Vermaak wrote: > which case you will have to resize the window or buy a larger monitor. "... buy a larger monitor" :-) I like the way you think. Quick and easy solutions. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/16 waldo kitty : > well, this also would depend on the method of designing the forms, right? > consider... one creates a form and places buttons here and there... they > expect that these buttons will appear in the same place with the same size > regardless of OS, widgetset and font... many folk and companies spend a huge How can you expect the button to be the same size if you can't read the text when you choose a translation that takes up more space? > amount of time and $$$ on their interfaces and when the underlying code > moves things about "because it can" then a lot of design stuff becomes > wasted time and $$$ :? The same amount of wasted time and € when someone can't use your app because larger text gets clipped and they can't see smaller text because their eyes are bad. Anyway, in the case that you want to use fixed positions, you can use the gtkfixed container. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Henry Vermaak wrote: 2009/12/15 waldo kitty : Henry Vermaak wrote: Gtk says that if widgets need to have hard clipping, they should create their own window. This causes performance issues, though, by increasing communication with the x server. But this is really a non-issue. I'd argue that clipping is almost always bad. What use is something if you can't see it? by the same token, what use is something if you can't read it because some other things have stomped all over each others and piled up in an unreadable mess? Equally bad, I'd say. What do you think? Comes down to the same thing, though: bad design. well, this also would depend on the method of designing the forms, right? consider... one creates a form and places buttons here and there... they expect that these buttons will appear in the same place with the same size regardless of OS, widgetset and font... many folk and companies spend a huge amount of time and $$$ on their interfaces and when the underlying code moves things about "because it can" then a lot of design stuff becomes wasted time and $$$ :? I've just gone through most of the ubuntu preferences dialogs and not one of them clips anything. What's more is that they react to font sizes, theme changes and translation correctly. so all the buttons change their sizes when the font is increased or decreased? how about the entire pane they are in? does it also expand and contract based on the font size? ;) Yes. What do you expect, to clip the buttons after they've expanded? At some stage it will obviously become too large for the window, in which case you will have to resize the window or buy a larger monitor. or adjust the design method and/or underlaying code to compensate... i'm faced with coding for many who's eyes are not all that great (read as elderly persons)... it doesn't matter if they have the latest and greatest flatscreen monitor of 20+ inches diag or not... they still run at 800x600 or such so they can see the items on the screen without their glasses... now what? :? :rolleyes: -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/15 waldo kitty : > Henry Vermaak wrote: >> >> Gtk says that if widgets need to have hard clipping, they should >> create their own window. This causes performance issues, though, by >> increasing communication with the x server. >> >> But this is really a non-issue. I'd argue that clipping is almost >> always bad. What use is something if you can't see it? > > by the same token, what use is something if you can't read it because some > other things have stomped all over each others and piled up in an unreadable > mess? Equally bad, I'd say. What do you think? Comes down to the same thing, though: bad design. > >> I've just >> gone through most of the ubuntu preferences dialogs and not one of >> them clips anything. What's more is that they react to font sizes, >> theme changes and translation correctly. > > so all the buttons change their sizes when the font is increased or > decreased? how about the entire pane they are in? does it also expand and > contract based on the font size? ;) Yes. What do you expect, to clip the buttons after they've expanded? At some stage it will obviously become too large for the window, in which case you will have to resize the window or buy a larger monitor. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Henry Vermaak wrote: Gtk says that if widgets need to have hard clipping, they should create their own window. This causes performance issues, though, by increasing communication with the x server. But this is really a non-issue. I'd argue that clipping is almost always bad. What use is something if you can't see it? by the same token, what use is something if you can't read it because some other things have stomped all over each others and piled up in an unreadable mess? I've just gone through most of the ubuntu preferences dialogs and not one of them clips anything. What's more is that they react to font sizes, theme changes and translation correctly. so all the buttons change their sizes when the font is increased or decreased? how about the entire pane they are in? does it also expand and contract based on the font size? ;) -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Graeme Geldenhuys escreveu: Henry Vermaak wrote: Maybe you can also explain to me what good hard-coded bounds are, given that you will never be able to get it right to suit everyone's language, theme or font size. And how bad does it look when a component paints outside it's bounds. Quick answer - Terrible! Considering that I have not seen a single other GUI toolkit allow that, it IS simply a bug in GTK2. It's necessary to have in mind that Gtk is not supposed to be used as is used by LCL (with fixed bounds and position). The default Gtk behavior is to resize and position the controls according to font size etc, so this problem will never occurs when used as is proposed. This explains why LCL programs have such issues while pure Gtk2 apps not. Another point is that LCL uses the default Gtk controls, that are built with the above design in mind, while Gtk allows to change the widgets behavior by subclassing (inheritance). In other words the full potential of Gtk as a toolkit is not used. The problem is the inheritance model (GObject) is not as straight as C++ or pascal. Anyway, i have in mind somethings to fix in Gtk2. Luiz -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/15 Graeme Geldenhuys : > > And how bad does it look when a component paints outside it's bounds. Quick > answer - Terrible! Considering that I have not seen a single other GUI > toolkit allow that, it IS simply a bug in GTK2. This will only happen if the developer goes against the gtk documentation and explicitly sets the size of a widget. So no, it's a bug in the developer. The way to do gtk development is to use the various layout containers and to let gtk take care of resizing things for you - not to plonk widgets onto a window at hard coded points. If lazarus want their widgets to clip hard, then they have to give them windows. > Closer to home - the same can not be said for Lazarus IDE. There are stacks > of cases I can show screenshots where text points over groupbox bounds, > over button bounds etc... Plus, if I have Lazarus IDE open and change my > Gnome theme. As soon as I reach the third theme change, the Lazarus IDE > crashes and closes. > > But these are all probably LCL-GTK2 issues as most other GTK2 application > included with Ubuntu do not show these problem. I agree. There are problems with how the lcl handles theme and font changes, and I'm investigating that. But even when the lcl can handle all of these things correctly, we can't stop a stupid developer from making a button a hard-coded size. > But we are getting side tracked again. My intention with this message > thread was simply to notify the LCL developers about the GTK2 design change > - in case it will affect LCL-GTK2 in some way. I'm afraid taking cheap shots at gtk isn't going to make you very popular with these developers, though. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Henry Vermaak wrote: > > Sigh. Maybe you should raise that on the gtk list? Maybe I should report a few bugs there... > Maybe you can > also explain to me what good hard-coded bounds are, given that you > will never be able to get it right to suit everyone's language, theme > or font size. And how bad does it look when a component paints outside it's bounds. Quick answer - Terrible! Considering that I have not seen a single other GUI toolkit allow that, it IS simply a bug in GTK2. > always bad. What use is something if you can't see it? I've just > gone through most of the ubuntu preferences dialogs and not one of > them clips anything. What's more is that they react to font sizes, > theme changes and translation correctly. Closer to home - the same can not be said for Lazarus IDE. There are stacks of cases I can show screenshots where text points over groupbox bounds, over button bounds etc... Plus, if I have Lazarus IDE open and change my Gnome theme. As soon as I reach the third theme change, the Lazarus IDE crashes and closes. But these are all probably LCL-GTK2 issues as most other GTK2 application included with Ubuntu do not show these problem. As for the general idea of component boundaries and clipping. It's just common sense that a component boundary is there for a reason - everything inside that component rectangle should not be allowed to paint outside the boundaries. But we are getting side tracked again. My intention with this message thread was simply to notify the LCL developers about the GTK2 design change - in case it will affect LCL-GTK2 in some way. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
2009/12/15 Graeme Geldenhuys : > Marc Weustink wrote: >> On 14-12-2009 15:37, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: >>> Will this in any way affect LCL? >> >> Not, since it is already the case for most controls. Thats why you >> sometimes can draw a buttoncaption outside a button. > > Ah, so that explains it. That problem is quite visible in Lazarus IDE with > CheckBoxes, Radio Buttons and GroupBoxes all painting outside there bounds. > GTK2 library quality seem to be pretty crappy compared to Qt. Maybe the > GTK2 developers (I mean the library developers, not LCL-GTK2 developers) > should learn a few lessons from Qt about correct clipping behaviour. :-) Sigh. Maybe you should raise that on the gtk list? Maybe you can also explain to me what good hard-coded bounds are, given that you will never be able to get it right to suit everyone's language, theme or font size. Gtk says that if widgets need to have hard clipping, they should create their own window. This causes performance issues, though, by increasing communication with the x server. But this is really a non-issue. I'd argue that clipping is almost always bad. What use is something if you can't see it? I've just gone through most of the ubuntu preferences dialogs and not one of them clips anything. What's more is that they react to font sizes, theme changes and translation correctly. Henry -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Marc Weustink wrote: > On 14-12-2009 15:37, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: >> Will this in any way affect LCL? > > Not, since it is already the case for most controls. Thats why you > sometimes can draw a buttoncaption outside a button. Ah, so that explains it. That problem is quite visible in Lazarus IDE with CheckBoxes, Radio Buttons and GroupBoxes all painting outside there bounds. GTK2 library quality seem to be pretty crappy compared to Qt. Maybe the GTK2 developers (I mean the library developers, not LCL-GTK2 developers) should learn a few lessons from Qt about correct clipping behaviour. :-) Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Mattias Gärtner wrote: > >> Will this in any way affect LCL? > > Probably not I guessed it will be like the switch-over that Qt did. It didn't seem to affect the LCL-Qt either. Either way, I just thought I might mention it. > Ubuntu is already at 2.18 so it contains the 2.17 patches. I'm using Ubuntu 9.04 which still uses gtk2 2.16-1 Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
On 14-12-2009 15:37, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Will this in any way affect LCL? Not, since it is already the case for most controls. Thats why you sometimes can draw a buttoncaption outside a button. Just came across this information, so I thought I would mention it. Seems GTK is now following Qt in design. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/909m7/gtk_2173_is_released_the_clientside_windows/ http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/ClientSideWindows How will this affect running GTK2 apps remotely via X11 network protocol? I don't expect a big difference. Marc -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Re: [Lazarus] GTK2 changed to single-handle-per-form design
Zitat von Graeme Geldenhuys : Will this in any way affect LCL? Probably not 1. The gtk intf does not use many X functions and the gtk2 already had a lot of window less widgets. 2. Ubuntu is already at 2.18 so it contains the 2.17 patches. The only problems I know are that some themes cause division by zero - not in the LCL code, but in gtk theme engines or the svg lib used by some gtk themes. Just came across this information, so I thought I would mention it. Seems GTK is now following Qt in design. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/909m7/gtk_2173_is_released_the_clientside_windows/ http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/ClientSideWindows How will this affect running GTK2 apps remotely via X11 network protocol? It depends. For most apps it should make no difference. Mattias -- ___ Lazarus mailing list Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
