RES: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Do you remember BASIC ? (GWBasic, Quick Basic), there are a lot of people out there that still works with its open project like FREEBASIC. FPC and Lazarus are not different. BTW they´re better because are plataform independent. De: Fatih Demirdag [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviada em: domingo, 30 de abril de 2006 20:34 Para: lazarus@miraclec.com Assunto: RE: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents Here on Turkey, Visual Basic and Delphi were both most used languages by relatively elder organizations. New ones now chooses between Java and .NET (yet Delphi .NET not even considered, just MS Visual Studio) On the other hand in universities pascal considered as old, incapable anddead language. Academic people mostly agrees that no serious business can be done in Delphi. It is quiet hard to tell these people what can Delphi/Pascal can do. Everyone is imagining pascal as it were 20 years ago. %80 of people I know not even heard something called Object Pascal. The university I graduated is based onJava. %90 of computer engineering thesis (if a program is to be written)are made by Java and others Visual Studio.NET. Using something other then these for thesisare considered both radical and waste of time. Why people are keeping distance to Pascal this much? I think that is just because they think it is old and useless. They told this to othersmaking those also think that way, and so on. What a shame :( Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On 5/1/06, Henrique de Paula Faria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FPC and Lazarus are not different. BTW they´re better because are plataform independent. Better then what? On their website I see they only have it available for windows x86, linux x86 and Macintosh PowerPC. Lazarus has a few more: windows 64bits, all BSDs, Windows CE, etc -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RES: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
That´s what i meant. FPC and Lazarus are better. :) Henrique. -Mensagem original- De: Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviada em: segunda-feira, 1 de maio de 2006 14:47 Para: lazarus@miraclec.com Assunto: Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents On 5/1/06, Henrique de Paula Faria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FPC and Lazarus are not different. BTW they´re better because are plataform independent. Better then what? On their website I see they only have it available for windows x86, linux x86 and Macintosh PowerPC. Lazarus has a few more: windows 64bits, all BSDs, Windows CE, etc -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: RES: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lazarus@miraclec.comSubject: RES: [lazarus] Lazarus vs PatentsDate: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:44:56 -0300 Do you remember BASIC ? (GWBasic, Quick Basic), there are a lot of people out there that still works with its open project like FREEBASIC. FPC and Lazarus are not different. BTW they´re better because are plataform independent. Basic is relatively new. I saw a government office's programmingteamwas using COBOL for their primary work (year was 2003). How old doesn't matter, how is it now? :PExpress yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 18:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Michael A. Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can answer that. It isn't taught in school at all. If you go to any school and I mean any school that teaches CompSci in any way they will tell you that, Pascal is a dead and useless language. Nobody uses Pascal anymore. So we should provide a lazarus 'demo' of some kind as advertising to CompSci teachers all over the US ? :-) Micha _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
So guess what. If they don't even know what Delphi is they are not going to move to use FPC/Lazarus. It is a very tough sell here in the US. You just - unwillingly, I assume - provided a good reason to relocate the new Borland 'DevCo' to a place outside the US, considering their flagship has no popularity in their 'home country'... :-) Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On 4/30/06, Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Pascal/Delphi whatever is always stronger in Europe. On Brasil Delphi is very popular. I would say it is almost as popular as Java. It could be much more popular, but Borland's bad decisions / marketing and etc is hurting it. Specifically people are migrating from Delphi to Java to create multi-platform software due to the increasing interrest in Linux on Brasil. That's why I try to advertise Lazarus on Brasil =) On the oposite direction of people saying it's dead, I met some guys from the Brasilian state enterprise of software development that use Lazarus at their work. (They are migrating from Delphi to write cross-platform software) I also see that some Technical Schools in Brasil that used to teach Delphi are now teaching Lazarus. Also, I don't think I ever heard someone say Pascal is dead on Brasil. So I think the future is bright =) -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
RE: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Here on Turkey, Visual Basic and Delphi were both most used languages by relatively elder organizations. New ones now chooses between Java and .NET (yet Delphi .NET not even considered, just MS Visual Studio) On the other hand in universities pascal considered as old, incapable anddead language. Academic people mostly agrees that no serious business can be done in Delphi. It is quiet hard to tell these people what can Delphi/Pascal can do. Everyone is imagining pascal as it were 20 years ago. %80 of people I know not even heard something called Object Pascal. The university I graduated is based onJava. %90 of computer engineering thesis (if a program is to be written)are made by Java and others Visual Studio.NET. Using something other then these for thesisare considered both radical and waste of time. Why people are keeping distance to Pascal this much? I think that is just because they think it is old and useless. They told this to othersmaking those also think that way, and so on. What a shame :(Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. Hi! Just curious... That is interesting that you think 2. I would expect it would making their user-base smaller. What is the logic behind your assertion? Pascal is no longer a mainstream language. If FPC has success, then the use of Pascal becomes more widespread. Large software companies will always want to have a support contract, and will therefore turn to Borland. If we are close enough to Delphi compatibility, we encourage people to develop with Delphi, and offer them a way to migrate to platforms that Borland does not support (let's face it: Borland is a Windows shop): They code their stuff in delphi, but can migrate to, or support, any platform. So, in fact, you could say we are doing development for Borland. Apart from that: The whole event handler patent is too ridiculous to be true; It's just passing 2 hidden pointers. What is the innovation in that ? The idiot that approved this patent didn't have a clue what he was doing. Just like IBM holds the patent on sorting an array... If I remember correctly, Borland also owns the patent of an desktop icon for an application. Try to enforce that... I think Jonas Maebe of the FPC development team could give some more examples of 'ridiculous' patents. He is lobbying (for lack of a better word) in the European Parliament to get the idea of software patents completely abandonded. And rightly so, IMHO. Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote: On 4/28/06, Michael Van Canneyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. A more clear example: I will help the One Laptop Per Child Foundation develop one of their softwares. I am exitating to use Lazarus, because Borland may sue OLPC on patent infringment due to VCL patents. And remeber that OLPC is on the United States. Is this possibility a reality? My second alternative (and a more likely one) is to use Free Pascal with pure GTK+ Assuming that we are actually infringing on any patents (which I don't believe): It will not be Lazarus that 'infringes' on patents. It would be the compiler itself. The whole event handler stuff is a compiler construct. The RTL/FCL/LCL is free of Borland code, so we are not copying any Borland code. You are safe there. So moving to GTK does you no good; you might as well use Lazarus... The IDE is definitely free of Borland code too, since that code has never been released :-) Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
No problem. Some remarks: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. IMHO this one is void, since if they realised this, they'd be more supportive. 3. If you are referring to an 'event handler' as far as I know, mac pascal has it too. 4. It was just a way to get a lot of cash from M$. They saw an opportunity, and they used it. I think this is the most important part. If they throw something at FPC, that will at the worst stall us a few years, since we would simply start to remove infringement, and not pay up to get the product out of the door. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Michael Van Canneyt a écrit : Assuming that we are actually infringing on any patents (which I don't believe): It perfectly sums up the problem : you don't believe. But you cannot know. The only way to know whether a software is infringing a patent is to publish this software and to wait for the attack of a patent holder. It is impossible to read all the descriptions of patents published by PTO's. There are too much of them (any triviality you can think of is already patented, to get a software patent it is sufficient to pay). Moreover, they are written in a IP lawyer dialect, i.e., not understanble for an ordinary human being. Now, if you think Lazarus and FPC are not infringing some patents, think twice. An example? The dialogue box Compiler options in Lazarus. This is a tabbed notebook. Have a look at http://webshop.ffii.de/index.en.html Particularly, the patent EP #689533. Bonus: At the bottom of the page there is a picture of the famous Frits Bolkestein. Yes, he also worked on patent softwares. In the pro camp, of course. We are living in coherent world. mm _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, George Lober wrote: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly This fact baffles me. Why isn't there more participation in development from North America ? Surely the appeal of Pascal isn't limited to cultural or national borders. Is it lack of interest for Pascal ? Is everybody just content with using Delphi over here ? I can answer that. It isn't taught in school at all. If you go to any school and I mean any school that teaches CompSci in any way they will tell you that, Pascal is a dead and useless language. Nobody uses Pascal anymore. I have actually asked them about Delphi and they have never heard of it. That is why there is such a lack of interest in the US. The general thought process has already killed it off. The following can also be found in the Wikipedia page about Pascal. While very popular (although more so in the 1980s and early 1990s than now), early versions of Pascal have been widely criticised for being unsuitable for serious use outside of teaching. This is the general information that is passed along to business in the US. No business interest. No popularity. Little use. I know some are going to say, Wait a minutes we use it all the time. I realize this but the overall concept is that it is a dead and unused language. At one point I ask people in the IT Dept where I work if they ever heard of Delphi. They had not. They didn't know what it was. So guess what. If they don't even know what Delphi is they are not going to move to use FPC/Lazarus. It is a very tough sell here in the US. -- Programming my first best destiny! Michael A. Hess Miracle Concepts, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.miraclec.com Phone: 570-388-2211 Fax: 570-388-6101 _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
I can answer that. It isn't taught in school at all. If you go to any school and I mean any school that teaches CompSci in any way they will tell you that, Pascal is a dead and useless language. Nobody uses Pascal anymore. This was almost the exact quotation I heard from people on a local linux mailing list community when I mentioned something about Pascal.. The best way to respond to people like this is to help them with their Perl problems once in a while.. they will respect that you helped them, then they might respect you more for what language you use. I know nothing about perl but I still answer some questions because the languages have something in common when it comes to a certain way to solve a problem, etc. It's sort of passive marketting, as opposed to active marketing. Active marketing would be to tell someone pascal Kicks Ass who you know is already using a language similar to Pascal - there are quite a few people in Java who can relate to Pascal since it has strong typing in common. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
[lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Hi, I have a question for the Lazarus/FPC community, that I got from a another thread in the mailing list (Lazarus Foundation). Does someones knows if there's a potential problem with Lazarus or FPC due to patents ? Borland, usuallys has an open mind with open source communities. But, I remember Borland sued M$ for the use of Delegation (Event pointers) as a patent... Just remember, I want to avoid a flame war, like it happen with my other comment... - Marco Aurelio Ramirez Carrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] [.mx] _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a question for the Lazarus/FPC community, that I got from a another thread in the mailing list (Lazarus Foundation). Does someones knows if there's a potential problem with Lazarus or FPC due to patents ? Borland, usuallys has an open mind with open source communities. But, I remember Borland sued M$ for the use of Delegation (Event pointers) as a patent... As far as I remember, this was for the use of the window handler to identify an object instance ? Just remember, I want to avoid a flame war, like it happen with my other comment... No problem. Some remarks: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. 3. If you are referring to an 'event handler' as far as I know, mac pascal has it too. 4. It was just a way to get a lot of cash from M$. They saw an opportunity, and they used it. Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a question for the Lazarus/FPC community, that I got from a another thread in the mailing list (Lazarus Foundation). Does someones knows if there's a potential problem with Lazarus or FPC due to patents ? Borland, usuallys has an open mind with open source communities. But, I remember Borland sued M$ for the use of Delegation (Event pointers) as a patent... As far as I remember, this was for the use of the window handler to identify an object instance ? Just remember, I want to avoid a flame war, like it happen with my other comment... No problem. Some remarks: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. Hi! Just curious... That is interesting that you think 2. I would expect it would making their user-base smaller. What is the logic behind your assertion? Regards Márton Papp _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On 4/28/06, Michael Van Canneyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. A more clear example: I will help the One Laptop Per Child Foundation develop one of their softwares. I am exitating to use Lazarus, because Borland may sue OLPC on patent infringment due to VCL patents. And remeber that OLPC is on the United States. Is this possibility a reality? My second alternative (and a more likely one) is to use Free Pascal with pure GTK+ thanks, -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Fri, 28 Apr 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a question for the Lazarus/FPC community, that I got from a another thread in the mailing list (Lazarus Foundation). Does someones knows if there's a potential problem with Lazarus or FPC due to patents ? Borland, usuallys has an open mind with open source communities. But, I remember Borland sued M$ for the use of Delegation (Event pointers) as a patent... As far as I remember, this was for the use of the window handler to identify an object instance ? Just remember, I want to avoid a flame war, like it happen with my other comment... No problem. Some remarks: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly This fact baffles me. Why isn't there more participation in development from North America ? Surely the appeal of Pascal isn't limited to cultural or national borders. Is it lack of interest for Pascal ? Is everybody just content with using Delphi over here ? , and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. 3. If you are referring to an 'event handler' as far as I know, mac pascal has it too. 4. It was just a way to get a lot of cash from M$. They saw an opportunity, and they used it. Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives George _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
Michael Van Canneyt wrote: 1. FPC/Lazarus is a european project mostly, and software patents are not enforced in Europe. They have no clear legal status here. But they are enforced here when the patent holder asks the PTO to do so. 2. They would be shooting in their own foot, because FPC/GPC are actually enlarging their user-base instead of making it smaller. Huh? The only way I can possibly see this reasoning is if some users start off using FPC/Lazarus and then move to Delphi. However, this would imply that purchasing Delphi would provide something that FPC/Lazarus can't. Is this your thought? See #4 below. 3. If you are referring to an 'event handler' as far as I know, mac pascal has it too. What Mac Pascal? It was abandoned years ago as far as I know. 4. It was just a way to get a lot of cash from M$. They saw an opportunity, and they used it. Also, let's face it, Lazarus/FPC isn't much of a threat to Borland (yet). The cost of litigation would be more than the possibility of lost business. Don't get me wrong; I'm hoping that Lazarus becomes Delphi's equal. At that point Borland (or Devco) may litigate if FPC/Lazarus has infringed on any of its patents. Michael. Mark _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On 4/28/06, L505 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While lazarus looks like plagiarism, MSEGUI looks like creativity. Almost all softwares are plagiarism. To start with all GNU projects are a plagiarism of some kind. GNU is plagiarism of UNIX. GCC from other compilers. KDE is a plagiarism from Windows GUI who is a plagiarism from Mac OS GUI who is a plagiarism from Xerox labs. Software patents are just ridiculous. On the International Free Software Forum on a lecture about Patents was said that until recently there were patents from Double Clicking. On the United States there is a patent for almost everything existing. Microsoft is trying to patent smileys. So how big companies survive? They have agreements to cover each other, to kill the independent vendors. Using True Type fonts on Linux can be considerede illegal, but you can use them on Macs and Windows because Microsoft and Apple have an agreement that both can use this. -- Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Lazarus vs Patents
On Friday 28 April 2006 17:43, George Lober wrote: This fact baffles me. Why isn't there more participation in development from North America ? What a loaded question. I think I know why. It has nothing to do with Pascal. John _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
