[Ldsoss] OT: LDS Team on Drug Design Optimization Lab Distributed Project
Just to settle what's off-topic, I'd thought I'd post something way off-topic: I've put together an unofficial LDS Team for those who want to join the Distributed Project called the Drug Design Optimization Lab. Basically, it is a project that allows team members to download a client that can be used as a screensaver to use the idle time of your computer to test various drug candidates against a computer model of a disease (currently working on avian flu and SARS) and send results of most likely candidates to a central server so researchers will only need to test the "cream of the crop". Since cream has caused people to leave the church, this project might not be for everyone. If your interested, here's the info. I'll try to stay on-topic in the future. - Dave / Atticus All they have to do is download http://www.d2ol.com/dOL/download_instructions.html and install the D2OL software and then go to this page to join your team. http://app.d2ol.com/memberServices/teamProfile.jsp?id=10125 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
On AD 2006 October 24 Tuesday 01:37:59 PM -0700, Manfred Riem wrote: > Bringing this badge up was not the thing that was off-topic to me. > The discussion about what copyright should be was. Others have already given reasons why many of us would be interested in this since the Church is a major supporter of the BSA. I dispute that discussion over copyright law is off topic. Sure, it brings together the foci of this list (the Church and OSS) in an unexpected way but it's still related. And copyright is at least perceived as seminal to the practice of OSS. justin ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
RE: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
Hi there, Bringing this badge up was not the thing that was off-topic to me. The discussion about what copyright should be was. And since the requirements for the badge are set by BSA and not us it is not a thing we should be debating. At least not on a mailinglist that I thought was meant for discussing open source. If there is such a thing as "Scouting Leadership Mailinglist" then I would say that is more suitable. Kind regards, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] Founding Java Champion > Original Message > Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity > badge > From: "m h" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, October 24, 2006 10:03 am > To: "LDS Open Source Software" > > On 10/24/06, Shawn Willden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tuesday 24 October 2006 07:20, Manfred Riem wrote: > > > While it is interesting to debate this I don't think this forum was meant > > > for this. If we are talking about furthering Open Source among LDS > > > developers I think we need to respect the charter of this mailinglist. So > > > please take this offlist and discuss this somewhere else. > > > > Sorry -- my first post to the list ever, and it's off-topic! > > > > Some lists are more careful than others about staying on-topic. Apparently > > this is one of the more-careful ones. I'll remember that in the future. > > > > Shawn. > > No problem Shawn. We are religious about our open source here ;) > > -matt > > ps - Also of the opinion that if this is off-topic, then the charter > needs to be modified... > ___ > Ldsoss mailing list > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
On 10/24/06, Shawn Willden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tuesday 24 October 2006 07:20, Manfred Riem wrote: > While it is interesting to debate this I don't think this forum was meant > for this. If we are talking about furthering Open Source among LDS > developers I think we need to respect the charter of this mailinglist. So > please take this offlist and discuss this somewhere else. Sorry -- my first post to the list ever, and it's off-topic! Some lists are more careful than others about staying on-topic. Apparently this is one of the more-careful ones. I'll remember that in the future. Shawn. No problem Shawn. We are religious about our open source here ;) -matt ps - Also of the opinion that if this is off-topic, then the charter needs to be modified... ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
I agree with John. There are a number of ways this topic intersects with the group's interests: 1. The Church is the strongest supporter of scouting out there. The scouting program is intimately connected with the mission of the Church. 2. Intellectual property rights and fair use are topics that are very important to those who are interested in open source software. This list being for LDS-interested folk who are also interested in open source software, it seems like the subject is spot-on for this group. Carl On Oct 24, 2006, at 9:30 AM, John Harrison wrote: Manfred, I'd argue that this is on topic in that LDS Developers that are interested in Open Source should sign up to teach the class for this patch and take the opportunity to educate (rather than brainwash) scouts about various aspects of copyright including Open Source. I would guess that the participants on this list would be more qualified than most to do so. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
Manfred, I'd argue that this is on topic in that LDS Developers that are interested in Open Source should sign up to teach the class for this patch and take the opportunity to educate (rather than brainwash) scouts about various aspects of copyright including Open Source. I would guess that the participants on this list would be more qualified than most to do so. On 10/24/06, Shawn Willden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tuesday 24 October 2006 07:20, Manfred Riem wrote: > While it is interesting to debate this I don't think this forum was meant > for this. If we are talking about furthering Open Source among LDS > developers I think we need to respect the charter of this mailinglist. So > please take this offlist and discuss this somewhere else. Sorry -- my first post to the list ever, and it's off-topic! Some lists are more careful than others about staying on-topic. Apparently this is one of the more-careful ones. I'll remember that in the future. Shawn. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 07:20, Manfred Riem wrote: > While it is interesting to debate this I don't think this forum was meant > for this. If we are talking about furthering Open Source among LDS > developers I think we need to respect the charter of this mailinglist. So > please take this offlist and discuss this somewhere else. Sorry -- my first post to the list ever, and it's off-topic! Some lists are more careful than others about staying on-topic. Apparently this is one of the more-careful ones. I'll remember that in the future. Shawn. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
On Oct 24, 2006, at 7:09 AM, Shawn Willden wrote: On Tuesday 24 October 2006 05:38, Steven McCown wrote: Even if you think that it *should* be okay to illegally download music and videos, at the moment it is not. At this moment it's also illegal to watch legally-purchased DVDs on Linux. Or to rip them and store them on a MythTV video jukebox for more convenient watching (and so that your two year-old doesn't destroy them). For that matter, by the letter of the law it's arguably illegal to convert your CDs to MP3s for listening on your iPod. Now the DVD situation *is* illegal under the DMCA. Breaking encryption algorithms *does* have a specific category under law and people have been found guilty of it. This is separate from Fair Use Doctrine. Again, the question in this instance is "It's illegal, but is it moral?" Jesse ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
IANAL but it *shouldn't* be okay to download movies and music that weren't intended to be downloaded for free, but it *is* legal. Fair use doctrine makes it legal for the common user, and I am unaware of any cases that were not settled out of court that were directed towards individuals that did this. In fact, with the old betamax trial I would say it is more *legal* than *illegal*. If you can find a case that actually went through the entire court system and a person was convicted as guilty for downloading music or movies from the internet, I would like to see it. I think the question is, "Is it *moral* or not?" Jesse On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:38 AM, Steven McCown wrote: What you are talking about is what the law *should* be. That can be a good debate and changing the law might be good. Even if you think that it *should* be okay to illegally download music and videos, at the moment it is not. What Scouts should learn by this is that it is, currently, wrong to illegally download music and videos. Scouts who illegally download copyrighted material can and will get caught and be punished. With minors, their parents will also be held liable. This is something that should be of real concern to Scouts and their parents. This badge should help Scouts learn that it is currently wrong to illegally download content and help keep them on the right side of the law. There is nothing 'celestial' about someone violating the law for personal gain. Steve On 10/23/06, John Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve, You say: What's interesting about this particular piece is that Hollywood is taking an "explain and educate" angle rather than a more confrontational "intimidate and litigate". That's a noteworthy twist given how much piracy costs Hollywood. Actually, Hollywood is taking all those angles at once as well as buying up legislators in order to extend their once limited "rights" in perpetuity and circumvent consumer rights through legislation such as the DMCA. I would love to see the requirements for this patch and see if this is going to educate scouts on the issues surrounding intellectual property rights or it is simply going to be more of the same from Hollywood, that consumers have no rights and that a copyright violation is the equivalent to holding up a little old lady at gunpoint. I'm not saying that copyright violation is a good thing, but that Hollywood consistently mischaracterizes it as the equivalent of stealing physical property, which is a lie. I'm hoping that the material surrounding this program is shocking to me in how even handedly it treats the issues, but I'm not holding me breath. So Steve, what do you think scouts need to know about copyright? later, John On 10/23/06, Thomas Haws < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sounds good to me, depending on how you look at it. Giving away freely is > celestial. Stealing is telestial. Respecting property rights is > terrestrial. The world aspires to keep a terrestrial law. > > > On 10/23/06, Steven H. McCown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I guess they feel that they are losing money to the "internet culture" and > > that they need to re-educate people that it is wrong to steal. While 30 > > years ago, truly honest people would never have dared photocopy a book > (even > > if it was free and instantaneous), the "internet culture" has changed that > > mindset. This new culture has given us other 'experts' such as Napster, > > torrents, etc. that make it technologically easy to do what once was > > considered wrong by the mainstream. > > > > I remember church talks telling us that it was wrong to steal cable TV. > The > > response of some was, "oh, come on, they're not actually losing money on > me, > > because I wouldn't subscribe anyway and it doesn't really cost them more > for > > just 1 more viewer..." It was still stealing even though some had really > > compelling rationalizations... > > > > What's interesting about this particular piece is that Hollywood is taking > > an "explain and educate" angle rather than a more confrontational > > "intimidate and litigate". That's a noteworthy twist given how much > piracy > > costs Hollywood. > > > > If the next generation of net user grows up having learned that it is > wrong > > to copy [not just photocopy], then we may just end up with less litigation > > and that would be a good thing. Wouldn't it? > > > > Steve > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Murdock > > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:51 PM > > To: LDS Open Source Software > > Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge > > > > "The movie industry has developed the curriculum." > > > > Oh good, an impartial and fair party, experts in law and the constitution. > > :-P > > > > Bryan > > __
RE: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
Hi there, While it is interesting to debate this I don't think this forum was meant for this. If we are talking about furthering Open Source among LDS developers I think we need to respect the charter of this mailinglist. So please take this offlist and discuss this somewhere else. Kind regards, Manfred Riem [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.manorrock.org/ Founding Java Champion -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shawn Willden Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:09 AM To: ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge On Tuesday 24 October 2006 05:38, Steven McCown wrote: > Even if you think that it *should* be okay to illegally download music > and videos, at the moment it is not. At this moment it's also illegal to watch legally-purchased DVDs on Linux. Or to rip them and store them on a MythTV video jukebox for more convenient watching (and so that your two year-old doesn't destroy them). For that matter, by the letter of the law it's arguably illegal to convert your CDs to MP3s for listening on your iPod. This subject needs a more nuanced treatment than simply "obey the law". Laws can be and often are wrong. There are many examples throughout history of laws that were horribly immoral. The requirement that laws be obeyed implicitly assumes that the laws are righteous -- it's just another example of the principle of righteous dominion. We are commanded by the Lord to follow the guidance of the leaders placed over us (fathers, husbands, bishops, etc.), but their right to command is contingent upon their righteousness. Unrighteous commands need not, and *should* not be obeyed. In this case, I think it's clear that downloading music and movies rather than paying for them is wrong, but I think the media cartels are also doing evil -- arguably the greater evil. And I think the biggest problem with this notion of an anti-piracy patch for boy scouts is that its requirements are entirely one-sided. I would have no objection to an official BSA badge of some sort that required the scout to understand both sides of copyright law. It should cover not only the exclusive rights granted to the holder, but also the exemptions built into the system (Fair Use, doctrine of first sale, etc.), and, further, the rationale and social contract underylying the notion of copyright. Such a badge would help them obtain respect for copyright law and what it's supposed to do, which would deter piracy, and would equip them to discuss whether or not current law actually fulfills those goals. That would be of value to scouts. As presently defined, the patch is of negative value. It's propaganda, not education. Shawn. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
On Tuesday 24 October 2006 05:38, Steven McCown wrote: > Even if you think that it *should* be okay to illegally download music and > videos, at the moment it is not. At this moment it's also illegal to watch legally-purchased DVDs on Linux. Or to rip them and store them on a MythTV video jukebox for more convenient watching (and so that your two year-old doesn't destroy them). For that matter, by the letter of the law it's arguably illegal to convert your CDs to MP3s for listening on your iPod. This subject needs a more nuanced treatment than simply "obey the law". Laws can be and often are wrong. There are many examples throughout history of laws that were horribly immoral. The requirement that laws be obeyed implicitly assumes that the laws are righteous -- it's just another example of the principle of righteous dominion. We are commanded by the Lord to follow the guidance of the leaders placed over us (fathers, husbands, bishops, etc.), but their right to command is contingent upon their righteousness. Unrighteous commands need not, and *should* not be obeyed. In this case, I think it's clear that downloading music and movies rather than paying for them is wrong, but I think the media cartels are also doing evil -- arguably the greater evil. And I think the biggest problem with this notion of an anti-piracy patch for boy scouts is that its requirements are entirely one-sided. I would have no objection to an official BSA badge of some sort that required the scout to understand both sides of copyright law. It should cover not only the exclusive rights granted to the holder, but also the exemptions built into the system (Fair Use, doctrine of first sale, etc.), and, further, the rationale and social contract underylying the notion of copyright. Such a badge would help them obtain respect for copyright law and what it's supposed to do, which would deter piracy, and would equip them to discuss whether or not current law actually fulfills those goals. That would be of value to scouts. As presently defined, the patch is of negative value. It's propaganda, not education. Shawn. ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
What you are talking about is what the law *should* be. That can be a good debate and changing the law might be good. Even if you think that it *should* be okay to illegally download music and videos, at the moment it is not. What Scouts should learn by this is that it is, currently, wrong to illegally download music and videos. Scouts who illegally download copyrighted material can and will get caught and be punished. With minors, their parents will also be held liable. This is something that should be of real concern to Scouts and their parents. This badge should help Scouts learn that it is currently wrong to illegally download content and help keep them on the right side of the law. There is nothing 'celestial' about someone violating the law for personal gain. Steve On 10/23/06, John Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve,You say:What's interesting about this particular pieceis that Hollywood is taking an "explain and educate" angle rather than a moreconfrontational "intimidate and litigate".That's a noteworthy twist given how muchpiracy costs Hollywood.Actually, Hollywood is taking all those angles at once as well as buying up legislators in order to extend their once limited "rights"in perpetuity and circumvent consumer rights through legislation suchas the DMCA.I would love to see the requirements for this patch and see if this is going to educate scouts on the issues surrounding intellectualproperty rights or it is simply going to be more of the same fromHollywood, that consumers have no rights and that a copyrightviolation is the equivalent to holding up a little old lady at gunpoint. I'm not saying that copyright violation is a good thing,but that Hollywood consistently mischaracterizes it as the equivalentof stealing physical property, which is a lie.I'm hoping that the material surrounding this program is shocking to me in how even handedly it treats the issues, but I'm not holding mebreath.So Steve, what do you think scouts need to know about copyright?later,JohnOn 10/23/06, Thomas Haws < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Sounds good to me, depending on how you look at it. Giving away freely is> celestial. Stealing is telestial. Respecting property rights is> terrestrial. The world aspires to keep a terrestrial law. >>> On 10/23/06, Steven H. McCown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > I guess they feel that they are losing money to the "internet culture" and > > that they need to re-educate people that it is wrong to steal. While 30> > years ago, truly honest people would never have dared photocopy a book> (even> > if it was free and instantaneous), the "internet culture" has changed that > > mindset. This new culture has given us other 'experts' such as Napster,> > torrents, etc. that make it technologically easy to do what once was> > considered wrong by the mainstream. > >> > I remember church talks telling us that it was wrong to steal cable TV.> The> > response of some was, "oh, come on, they're not actually losing money on> me,> > because I wouldn't subscribe anyway and it doesn't really cost them more > for> > just 1 more viewer..." It was still stealing even though some had really> > compelling rationalizations...> >> > What's interesting about this particular piece is that Hollywood is taking > > an "explain and educate" angle rather than a more confrontational> > "intimidate and litigate". That's a noteworthy twist given how much> piracy> > costs Hollywood. > >> > If the next generation of net user grows up having learned that it is> wrong> > to copy [not just photocopy], then we may just end up with less litigation> > and that would be a good thing. Wouldn't it? > >> > Steve> >> >> > -Original Message-> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Bryan Murdock> > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:51 PM> > To: LDS Open Source Software> > Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge > >> > "The movie industry has developed the curriculum."> >> > Oh good, an impartial and fair party, experts in law and the constitution.> > :-P> > > > Bryan> > ___> > Ldsoss mailing list> > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org> > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss> >> > ___> > Ldsoss mailing list> > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org > > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss> > --> Tom Haws 480-201-5476> Who is your teacher? > ___> Ldsoss mailing list> Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org> http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss>>>___Ldsoss mailing listLdsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge
Whoa, let's not fall into a huge trap by stating that what may (or may not) be a 'celestial' law is justification for breaking existing law. As I understand it, we are supposed to obey the laws of the land. Even Civil Disobedience is not a method of doing things in private for personal gain, but rather doing things publically, being willing to accept punishment, for a political statement. Boy Scouts need to be taught to obey the law. Adults can work to change it, if they so choose. Steve On 10/23/06, Thomas Haws <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sounds good to me, depending on how you look at it. Giving away freely is celestial. Stealing is telestial. Respecting property rights is terrestrial. The world aspires to keep a terrestrial law. On 10/23/06, Steven H. McCown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I guess they feel that they are losing money to the "internet culture" andthat they need to re-educate people that it is wrong to steal. While 30years ago, truly honest people would never have dared photocopy a book (even if it was free and instantaneous), the "internet culture" has changed thatmindset. This new culture has given us other 'experts' such as Napster,torrents, etc. that make it technologically easy to do what once was considered wrong by the mainstream.I remember church talks telling us that it was wrong to steal cable TV. Theresponse of some was, "oh, come on, they're not actually losing money on me,because I wouldn't subscribe anyway and it doesn't really cost them more for just 1 more viewer..." It was still stealing even though some had reallycompelling rationalizations...What's interesting about this particular piece is that Hollywood is takingan "explain and educate" angle rather than a more confrontational "intimidate and litigate". That's a noteworthy twist given how much piracycosts Hollywood.If the next generation of net user grows up having learned that it is wrongto copy [not just photocopy], then we may just end up with less litigation and that would be a good thing. Wouldn't it?Steve-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Bryan Murdock Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:51 PMTo: LDS Open Source SoftwareSubject: Re: [Ldsoss] Boy Scouts get a "Respect Copyrights" activity badge "The movie industry has developed the curriculum." Oh good, an impartial and fair party, experts in law and the constitution.:-PBryan___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.orghttp://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing listLdsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss -- Tom Haws 480-201-5476Who is your teacher? ___Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.orghttp://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
