[Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Over at slashdot, there is a thread about passing our electronic artifacts down to posterity (http://slashdot.org/~eldavojohn/journal/132841). Not trying to start a discussion about rifles, have any of you been working anything novel in this regard? Steve -- "Chance favours the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur -- ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Steven H. McCown wrote: Over at slashdot, there is a thread about passing our electronic artifacts down to posterity (http://slashdot.org/~eldavojohn/journal/132841). Not trying to start a discussion about rifles, have any of you been working anything novel in this regard? Steve I've picked up a new hobby of hard binding books by hand. When I've got enough material ready to bind on my computer, I lump it into a single file and organize it using OpenOffice. Then I save it to a pdf. After that, I use KPDF (and some print filters) to print it as several PDF files organized as the "signatures" of a book. Then when I'm ready to bind it as a book, I print out the signatures to hard copy and bind up the book. Electronic formats come and go and are still in a very high state of flux. Books have been around for centuries and will last for a few more centuries still. I find that this is the best way for me to preserve my electronic artifacts. Plus, if it is done the right way, it only costs a little for all of the materials involved--including the glue and equipment. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
On 4/5/06, V. B. Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steven H. McCown wrote: > > Over at slashdot, there is a thread about passing our electronic artifacts > > down to posterity (http://slashdot.org/~eldavojohn/journal/132841). > > > > Not trying to start a discussion about rifles, have any of you been working > > anything novel in this regard? > > > > Steve > > > I've picked up a new hobby of hard binding books by hand. When I've got > enough material ready to bind on my computer, I lump it into a single > file and organize it using OpenOffice. Then I save it to a pdf. After > that, I use KPDF (and some print filters) to print it as several PDF > files organized as the "signatures" of a book. Then when I'm ready to > bind it as a book, I print out the signatures to hard copy and bind up > the book. Electronic formats come and go and are still in a very high > state of flux. Books have been around for centuries and will last for a > few more centuries still. I find that this is the best way for me to > preserve my electronic artifacts. Plus, if it is done the right way, it > only costs a little for all of the materials involved--including the > glue and equipment. That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Why book binding in particular? Wouldn't just a three ring binder be a lot easier? I'm thinking that'd be easier to get the pages out to feed into a scanner to be re-imported into digital format down the road someday? I just re-read the above and realized it could come off as me being sarcastic, but I'm not. I'm really curious. At least half joking now, wouldn't it be even cooler to engrave it on metal instead of printing it on flimsy paper? Bryan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. Why book binding in particular? It lasts a long time and when you know what is involved, it is actually kind of a relaxing activity (at least for me). Some people work with wood to relax. I bind books. Wouldn't just a three ring binder be a lot easier? I'm thinking that'd be easier to get the pages out to feed into a scanner to be re-imported into digital format down the road someday? Three ring binders are easier to put together and take apart to rescan; however, not as durable. I've yet to have a three ring binder last more than 6 or 7 years before the rings fell out or the cover wore out. I suppose if you put it flat on a shelf and leave it, it would last a lot longer. At the same time, if you know how to bind a book, it's not that big of a deal to tear down a book, scan it, and then re-bind it in a new binding. At least half joking now, wouldn't it be even cooler to engrave it on metal instead of printing it on flimsy paper? Yes and no. Metal does last longer; however, given my metalworking skills, I would much rather bind a thousand pages per week in a format that lasts for a few hundred years than add 1 plate per week to the binding in a format that lasts for a few thousand years (not to mention how much more it costs to use a metal that wouldn't easily corrode). And my half-joking response: Why do you think that Mormon abridged the records with so few details about the history if the Nephites? I wouldn't want to hand engrave all that stuff either. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
V. B. Hunt wrote: metal instead of printing it on flimsy paper? At least half joking now, wouldn't it be even cooler to engrave it on Yes and no. Metal does last longer; however, given my metalworking skills, I would much rather bind a thousand pages per week in a format that lasts for a few hundred years than add 1 plate per week to the binding in a format that lasts for a few thousand years (not to mention how much more it costs to use a metal that wouldn't easily corrode). And my half-joking response: Why do you think that Mormon abridged the records with so few details about the history if the Nephites? I wouldn't want to hand engrave all that stuff either. The Geek in me is kicking in - you should use one of those laser-etchers. Then you wouldn't have to hand-engrave. :-) Jesse ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
I know a guy that prints things onto rolls of light tin using dot matrix printers. Preserves very well.>>> "Jesse Stay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/6/2006 9:06:50 AM >>>V. B. Hunt wrote:>> metal instead of printing it on flimsy paper?>> > At least half joking now, wouldn't it be even cooler to engrave it on> Yes and no. Metal does last longer; however, given my metalworking > skills, I would much rather bind a thousand pages per week in a format > that lasts for a few hundred years than add 1 plate per week to the > binding in a format that lasts for a few thousand years (not to > mention how much more it costs to use a metal that wouldn't easily > corrode). And my half-joking response: Why do you think that Mormon > abridged the records with so few details about the history if the > Nephites? I wouldn't want to hand engrave all that stuff either. The Geek in me is kicking in - you should use one of those laser-etchers. Then you wouldn't have to hand-engrave. :-)Jesse___Ldsoss mailing listLdsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss -- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. -- ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
V. B. Hunt wrote: Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in fact the poster is not.) Ash ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Ashley Oviatt wrote: I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. There's a great article in the most recent edition of O'Reilly's Make magazine (issue 05, I think) on hand-binding books. They show how to hand-bind an issue of Make. I'd imagine there's also a slew of online resources on how to do it as well. My wife for a family Christmas gift bound up a short storybook she had written about her ancestors. The process isn't too difficult, but does take a fair amount of time (depending on how many you're making). But I'm sure there would be plenty of interest in seeing a live demonstration. -- Dan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Ashley Oviatt wrote: V. B. Hunt wrote: Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in fact the poster is not.) Ash Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a demonstration at that time of year. On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than September. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
This got me thinking. I think a lot (while certainly not near all) of our members are currently living in Utah. Would anyone be interested in having regular get-togethers or meetings where we can get to know one another, and perhaps share some of the things pertinent to the purposes of LDSOSS that our members are doing? I don't think even monthly is necessary. We could perhaps do quarterly get-togethers. I don't want to neglect our members outside of Utah (we even have some outside of the US), so if you have any other suggestions, that would be nice. I think this would be a good way to see what others are doing, and encourage all of us to get out and contribute to OSS. Just some thoughts... Jesse V. B. Hunt wrote: Ashley Oviatt wrote: V. B. Hunt wrote: Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in fact the poster is not.) Ash Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a demonstration at that time of year. On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than September. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
I think it would be interesting if we could compile a list of where every one is living? People who live close together may want to meet as well. Along with that, it would probably be good to have a summary of people's interests as well. On 4/7/06, Jesse Stay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This got me thinking. I think a lot (while certainly not near all) ofour members are currently living in Utah. Would anyone be interested in having regular get-togethers or meetings where we can get to know oneanother, and perhaps share some of the things pertinent to the purposesof LDSOSS that our members are doing? I don't think even monthly is necessary. We could perhaps do quarterly get-togethers.I don't want to neglect our members outside of Utah (we even have someoutside of the US), so if you have any other suggestions, that would benice. I think this would be a good way to see what others are doing, and encourage all of us to get out and contribute to OSS. Just somethoughts...JesseV. B. Hunt wrote:> Ashley Oviatt wrote:>> V. B. Hunt wrote:> Bryan Murdock wrote: >>> That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better?>> Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser >>> printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled>> technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in>> fact the poster is not.) Ash>>> Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the > most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a> Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and> working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife > and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school> team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of> practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second > year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of> fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most> weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get > back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is> usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a> demonstration at that time of year.>> On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try > to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a> member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find> someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than > September.>> Brice> ___> Ldsoss mailing list> Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org> http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss___Ldsoss mailing listLdsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
We could use Frappr (www.frappr.com) for that. On 4/7/06, Jay Askren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think it would be interesting if we could compile a list of where every > one is living? People who live close together may want to meet as well. > Along with that, it would probably be good to have a summary of people's > interests as well. > > > > > > On 4/7/06, Jesse Stay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This got me thinking. I think a lot (while certainly not near all) of > > our members are currently living in Utah. Would anyone be interested in > > having regular get-togethers or meetings where we can get to know one > > another, and perhaps share some of the things pertinent to the purposes > > of LDSOSS that our members are doing? I don't think even monthly is > > necessary. We could perhaps do quarterly get-togethers. > > > > I don't want to neglect our members outside of Utah (we even have some > > outside of the US), so if you have any other suggestions, that would be > > nice. I think this would be a good way to see what others are doing, > > and encourage all of us to get out and contribute to OSS. Just some > > thoughts... > > > > Jesse > > > > V. B. Hunt wrote: > > > Ashley Oviatt wrote: > > >> V. B. Hunt wrote: > > >> > > >>> Bryan Murdock wrote: > > >>> > > That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer > > that archives better? > > >>> > > >>> Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser > > >>> printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. > > >> > > >> I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled > > >> technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. > > >> > > >> (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in > > >> fact the poster is not.) > > >> > > >> Ash > > >> > > > Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the > > > most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a > > > Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and > > > working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife > > > and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school > > > team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of > > > practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second > > > year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of > > > fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most > > > weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get > > > back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is > > > usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a > > > demonstration at that time of year. > > > > > > On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try > > > to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a > > > member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find > > > someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than > > > September. > > > > > > Brice > > > ___ > > > Ldsoss mailing list > > > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org > > > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss > > > > > > ___ > > Ldsoss mailing list > > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org > > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss > > > > > ___ > Ldsoss mailing list > Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org > http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss > > > ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
On 4/7/06, Jay Askren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think it would be interesting if we could compile a list of where every > one is living? People who live close together may want to meet as well. > Along with that, it would probably be good to have a summary of people's > interests as well. Who will start the wiki page? Bryan ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Or we can just put a page for each of ourselves on the wiki, and our locations and any other info we want about ourselves. It would probably be easier to just have all our info in one place were LDSOSS can control, and maybe set up some sort of Google map link into it. I'll start a wiki page for this in a few days after I hear ideas from the list. I have some ideas, and have been given some other ideas, which I'll post sometime soon on the list (and the wiki). Jesse m h wrote: We could use Frappr (www.frappr.com) for that. On 4/7/06, Jay Askren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think it would be interesting if we could compile a list of where every one is living? People who live close together may want to meet as well. Along with that, it would probably be good to have a summary of people's interests as well. On 4/7/06, Jesse Stay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This got me thinking. I think a lot (while certainly not near all) of our members are currently living in Utah. Would anyone be interested in having regular get-togethers or meetings where we can get to know one another, and perhaps share some of the things pertinent to the purposes of LDSOSS that our members are doing? I don't think even monthly is necessary. We could perhaps do quarterly get-togethers. I don't want to neglect our members outside of Utah (we even have some outside of the US), so if you have any other suggestions, that would be nice. I think this would be a good way to see what others are doing, and encourage all of us to get out and contribute to OSS. Just some thoughts... Jesse V. B. Hunt wrote: Ashley Oviatt wrote: V. B. Hunt wrote: Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in fact the poster is not.) Ash Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a demonstration at that time of year. On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than September. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives
Great idea. I suggest different levels of privacy. --dave From: Jesse Stay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: LDS Open Source Software To: LDS Open Source Software Subject: Re: [Ldsoss] Archiving Our Electronic Lives Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:41:06 -0600 Or we can just put a page for each of ourselves on the wiki, and our locations and any other info we want about ourselves. It would probably be easier to just have all our info in one place were LDSOSS can control, and maybe set up some sort of Google map link into it. I'll start a wiki page for this in a few days after I hear ideas from the list. I have some ideas, and have been given some other ideas, which I'll post sometime soon on the list (and the wiki). Jesse m h wrote: We could use Frappr (www.frappr.com) for that. On 4/7/06, Jay Askren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think it would be interesting if we could compile a list of where every one is living? People who live close together may want to meet as well. Along with that, it would probably be good to have a summary of people's interests as well. On 4/7/06, Jesse Stay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This got me thinking. I think a lot (while certainly not near all) of our members are currently living in Utah. Would anyone be interested in having regular get-togethers or meetings where we can get to know one another, and perhaps share some of the things pertinent to the purposes of LDSOSS that our members are doing? I don't think even monthly is necessary. We could perhaps do quarterly get-togethers. I don't want to neglect our members outside of Utah (we even have some outside of the US), so if you have any other suggestions, that would be nice. I think this would be a good way to see what others are doing, and encourage all of us to get out and contribute to OSS. Just some thoughts... Jesse V. B. Hunt wrote: Ashley Oviatt wrote: V. B. Hunt wrote: Bryan Murdock wrote: That's interesting. Do you use any kind of special paper or printer that archives better? Just a heavy bond, acid free paper in an auto-duplexing laser printer. That's usually enough to last for a very long time. I think a meeting is in order to learn how you do this newfangled technology first hand. I'd love to learn how to bind a hard bound book. (hmmm this thread is really easy to read as being sarcastic, when in fact the poster is not.) Ash Looking over my calendar for the next several months, I see that the most likely time I would have to demonstrate would probably be a Saturday in September or early October. With my wife in school and working and me homeschooling, we're really busy right now. My wife and I are going to a national competition in late June for a school team that she is on. Until that is over, her team has a lot of practices and that leaves very little spare time (this is her second year going). After that, I have promised my kids that do a lot of fishing and camping this summer, which means we will be gone most weekends. My wife is back in school in late August. After we get back into a routine while she is in school and before midterms is usually our least busy time and I most likely could give a demonstration at that time of year. On the other hand, if you wanted a demonstration sooner, we could try to find someone else that isn't quite so busy right now. I am a member of the Yahoo! BookBinding group. We could probably find someone local that might be willing to do a demonstration sooner than September. Brice ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss ___ Ldsoss mailing list Ldsoss@lists.ldsoss.org http://lists.ldsoss.org/mailman/listinfo/ldsoss
