Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Ted Hess]

On Sun, 2016-09-25 at 20:15 +0200, Thomas Endt wrote:
> What would be the official LEDE logo for the wiki?
> 
> This one?
> https://www.lede-project.org/logo/logo_small.png
> 
> If yes: Can I have this in a bigger size, please?
> 

The best place to start is here: https://github.com/lede-project/web/blob/master
/logo/logo.svg

Then create any size (png or jpg) you want :)

/ted

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Thomas Endt]

What would be the official LEDE logo for the wiki?

This one?
https://www.lede-project.org/logo/logo_small.png

If yes: Can I have this in a bigger size, please?


FYI: I changed the wiki template to monobook, but other templates are
available [1], up to creating our own one.
Comments are welcome.

Thomas

[1] https://www.dokuwiki.org/template




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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Thomas Endt]

Wiki has been set up: https://wiki.lede-project.org/

You can now register yourself and contribute in building the LEDE wiki.

Discussions are available either in the wiki (lets see how good this works)
or in this mailing list. Please use '[LEDE-DEV][wiki]' in the subject of
your email to enable easy filtering.

Please always remember:
The wiki is from the community and for the community. It can only be as good
and as up to date as you make it.

Thomas


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Jan-Tarek Butt]

Hi,

On 09/15/16 20:02, Thomas Endt wrote:
>> I think we should avoid forums for now and should lay out the wiki's
>> plans in a wiki page and activate a plugin (there are at least a couple
>> for docuwiki) to make a "talk" page or "discussion" page like
>> Wikipedia's for wiki volunteer interactions.
> 
> Interesting idea.
> The "discussion" page is disabled in the OpenWrt wiki. I guess because those
> discussions require quite some admin-time, which wasn't available in the
> past.
> Shouldn't be a problem to at least try it out. If it doesn't work as
> expected, it can be deactivated with a click.
> 
> I somehow feel the need to collect ideas like this somewhere more suitable
> than a mailing list... *hint* ;-)

Maybe a wiki-maillinglist is easyer to intigrate instead of a froum or wiki
discuss pages. Also the boarding hurdle is mutch higer on a forum (new web
account, no offline support, poor overview, and so on) than a mailinglist.

cheers
Tarek



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[John Crispin]

On 16/09/2016 18:47, Alberto Bursi wrote:
> 
> 
> On 09/16/2016 06:23 AM, John Crispin wrote:
>>
>> On 15/09/2016 22:41, Alberto Bursi wrote:
>>> Note that I'm not talking about the wiki. That was not a major issue as
>>> being a separate thing it can be set up unofficially, or whatever.
>>> I am just arguing about principles here, as I'm spotting a possibly bad
>>> pattern where the same bad practices of OpenWRT can bite again.
>> i am spotting that you are missing the point. i agree that your thread
>> of argumentation was valid fro owrt. things were often not possible
>> without the approval of the grandmaster. here things are different. we
>> dished out commit access to lots of people. opened up the comms, became
>> very transparent and after you guys started a discussion on how the wiki
>> should go we did not intervene but simply endorsed it. this is very far
>> from the old pattern of modus operandi. however your call for strong
>> leadership and guidance sounds like a wish to return to that which i
>> think most people do not want to do. you are free to do as you please.
>> if you need something from other community members simply ask and you
>> will get an answer.
>>
> 
> 1. I'm not advocating for a Third LEDE Reich so please stop thinking I 
> am lol.
> 
> 2. I'm not talking of just the wiki, the answers I got from that 
> discussion did trigger this.

ah ok, was not aware that we were mixing topics here, i thought we were
discussing the wiki and forum.

> 
> jow said "don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE 
> devs" -
> 
> those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
> is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
> the decision making processes"
> 
> I was just pointing out that for people this isn't obvious, and that getting 
> any answer isn't a given.

i think you were just unlucky to not get some of the stuff below
answered immediately.

> 
> To make some examples, I posted some weeks back asking things and making 
> a proposal about kirkwoods, I got no answer.
> I also sent a mail to Felix I think as I saw he seemed interested in 
> Kirkwoods in the last meeting logs, still no answer.

i guess kirkwood is somewhat unmaintained at the moment. i dont have any
kirkwood hw and no access to the datasheets so i cant help i am afraid.

> There is a guy that posted a big pull request about Mikrotik devices and 
> after he fixed all stuff you asked him he got no answer for like a month 
> even after he asked if you had forgotten him. I mean how about posting 
> something like "we are busy, it will be merged next month"?

ok, the one big commit that has been dangling for ages. point taken
there is indeed one. i could argue that we merged over 1k other commits
in the past few months.

> I open a pull request to fix something about kirkwoods, someone assigns 
> it to himself, but then no answers or status updates for two weeks.
> Then there are other guys in this mailing lists that seem to have had 
> issues with this lack of people answering too, like fhfredi...@gmail.com.

again, point taken, a minuscule amount of patches in the region of less
than 0.5% has not been merged within a few days.

as jow said, dont take it personal. if people dont reply, be more
persistent. if all else fails hunt people down in IRC.

John

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/16/2016 06:23 AM, John Crispin wrote:
>
> On 15/09/2016 22:41, Alberto Bursi wrote:
>> Note that I'm not talking about the wiki. That was not a major issue as
>> being a separate thing it can be set up unofficially, or whatever.
>> I am just arguing about principles here, as I'm spotting a possibly bad
>> pattern where the same bad practices of OpenWRT can bite again.
> i am spotting that you are missing the point. i agree that your thread
> of argumentation was valid fro owrt. things were often not possible
> without the approval of the grandmaster. here things are different. we
> dished out commit access to lots of people. opened up the comms, became
> very transparent and after you guys started a discussion on how the wiki
> should go we did not intervene but simply endorsed it. this is very far
> from the old pattern of modus operandi. however your call for strong
> leadership and guidance sounds like a wish to return to that which i
> think most people do not want to do. you are free to do as you please.
> if you need something from other community members simply ask and you
> will get an answer.
>

1. I'm not advocating for a Third LEDE Reich so please stop thinking I 
am lol.

2. I'm not talking of just the wiki, the answers I got from that 
discussion did trigger this.

jow said "don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE 
devs" -

those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
the decision making processes"

I was just pointing out that for people this isn't obvious, and that getting 
any answer isn't a given.

To make some examples, I posted some weeks back asking things and making 
a proposal about kirkwoods, I got no answer.
I also sent a mail to Felix I think as I saw he seemed interested in 
Kirkwoods in the last meeting logs, still no answer.
There is a guy that posted a big pull request about Mikrotik devices and 
after he fixed all stuff you asked him he got no answer for like a month 
even after he asked if you had forgotten him. I mean how about posting 
something like "we are busy, it will be merged next month"?
I open a pull request to fix something about kirkwoods, someone assigns 
it to himself, but then no answers or status updates for two weeks.
Then there are other guys in this mailing lists that seem to have had 
issues with this lack of people answering too, like fhfredi...@gmail.com.

-Alberto

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/16/2016 06:25 AM, John Crispin wrote:
>
> On 15/09/2016 22:50, Alberto Bursi wrote:
>> I said that for that it's better a "talk/discussion" page on a wiki,
>> because a forum needs more time investment than a wiki to be done right
>> and should be treated as its own project with its own volunteers and so
>> on, not as an appendage of the wiki.
>
> why does it need more time ? i would have expected it to be the other
> way round as a forum is useful even with little traffic while a wiki
> only makes sense when handling lots of content
>
Because a wiki is mostly an affair people goes and reads to do stuff on 
their own, while a forum requires constant interaction with people.

Once the wiki is fixed, maintaining it will be relatively fast unless 
you make big sweeping changes to LEDE every day.

I already said above that just making a forum and letting it run on its 
own like the OpenWRT forum will not be good.
Really, a LEDE forum isn't for posting funny cat pics and memes, most 
people will post there somewhat technical questions, and this means we 
should plan to have some volunteer that answers them (even if just with 
a link to the wiki or FAQ or whatever) and also does mod duties.
The general hope is to kick-start the forum community so eventually 
there will be other users in forum that answer questions, but if you 
just open the forum people will ask, not get answers, go away, and no 
community will form there.

-Albert

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Raylynn Knight]

I will be a contributor/user of whatever wiki is provided and have used both 
Dokuwiki and the Semantic MediaWiki (used by WikiDevi) as I’ve contributed to 
both the OpenWrt Wiki and MediaWiki.  I think my preference would be for 
DokuWiki.  

I have experience installing OpenWrt on over 50 different supported devices and 
a few unsupported devices.  As soon as the wiki is available I’d be willing to 
start entering data on the devices I have experience with.  

Ray

> On Sep 14, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Alberto Bursi  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 09/14/2016 10:31 PM, Thomas Endt wrote:
>> I advise to setup a Dokuwiki, if no one else has good reasons
>> against it. Please slow me down in case I'm going too fast.
> Ok for me. As long as the theme is something modern and readable, 
> registered users/gardeners can rollboack edits, and there is a wysiwyg 
> editor, I'm ok with it. (Docuwiki has these features at least)
>> Oh, what is really needed for this build: Discussion between the volunteers,
>> either via mailing list, or via forum. I'd prefer the latter, since it's
>> easier to access for the standard user than a mailing list.
> Well, of course a forum is better, but it also carries much more work 
> than a wiki (I mean much more work to not just have a massive empty 
> space where any post echoes loudly like current OpenWRT forum, that does 
> not do any good).
> 
> I mean, hoping someone will answer people's questions is certainly good 
> and all, but to truly kick-start a forum (i.e. attract people into it) 
> you need some semi-official guys that camp there and (do their best to) 
> answer people's questions, and that might become a heavy burden fast.
> 
> I think we should avoid forums for now and should lay out the wiki's 
> plans in a wiki page and activate a plugin (there are at least a couple 
> for docuwiki) to make a "talk" page or "discussion" page like 
> Wikipedia's for wiki volunteer interactions.
> 
> -Albert
> 
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/15/2016 07:21 AM, John Crispin wrote:
>
> On 15/09/2016 00:10, Alberto Bursi wrote:
>> I think we should avoid forums for now and should lay out the wiki's
>> plans in a wiki page and activate a plugin (there are at least a couple
>> for docuwiki) to make a "talk" page or "discussion" page like
>> Wikipedia's for wiki volunteer interactions.
> why would you want the community avoid forums ? imho it solves a very
> different problem than a wiki.
>   John
>
That guy was asking to make a forum to have a place where wiki 
contributors can talk.
I said that for that it's better a "talk/discussion" page on a wiki, 
because a forum needs more time investment than a wiki to be done right 
and should be treated as its own project with its own volunteers and so 
on, not as an appendage of the wiki.

-Albert

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[John Crispin]

On 15/09/2016 20:52, Thomas Endt wrote:
>> von John Crispin
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. September 2016 07:20
> 
>> if you need a strong leader to tell you what you can(not) do,
>> then you are in the wrong place buddy.
> 
> I think the reason for asking the devs about their approval or at least
> their opinion was just respect. In the absence of any other guideline and if
> you are polite, you just ask, before doing anything.
> 
> 
>> consider the core team as
>> members of the community that have just been around for a long time and
>> played a big role in some part of the project.
> 
> Thank you for this clear statement. Also thanks to Jow for his clear
> statement.
> 
> Short summary:
> 
> - The wiki is community driven.
> - The devs are equal members of the community.
> - There is no special approval of the devs necessary for wiki content,
> appearance, ...
> - If the community (which the devs are part of) objects to some content,
> appearance, whatever in the wiki, it can be discussed and possibly changed
> to a better.
> 
> 
> That is what the engaged people in the OpenWrt wiki were looking for: A
> clear statement.
> 
>> the problem is
>> that people tend to sit around, not get involved and use the "the
>> leader gave no orders" excuse to legitimate their silence.
> 
> Well, at least there was the attempt to start a conversation. Can you
> imagine how frustrating it can be to get no answer at all? No yes, no no, no
> maybe?
> 
> Anyways, we have a direction now. The past is behind us, the future before
> us.
> It will be as good as the community can make it.
> 
> Thomas
> 

alberto reminded "the leaders" that they cannot ignore others after jow
had already replied so just thought it might be good to explain why the
reply took a bit and why from my POV there is no compulsory involvement
in every detail of every discussion. maybe you misunderstood me. i was
trying to emphasize that personally i think this discussion is going the
right way without a centralized "leader". the only thing i would like to
see is that the wiki whatever it will look like runs on the lede infra.

John


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Fernando Frediani]

That's why I am an adept of hierarchy or at least have well defined
who is responsible for what, otherwise when something is sent to all
nobody will care much to respond unless that affects him/her directly
in some way.
I'm not talking about someone giving orders and others following it,
but just having someone or a small group of people that answers
anything related to that topic. When you have something to say about
that subject you know exactly who are the people in charge of that.

Well, good this is going ahead finally.

On 14 September 2016 at 20:11, Alberto Bursi  wrote:
>
>
> On 09/14/2016 12:27 AM, Jo-Philipp Wich wrote:
>> Hi Alberto,
>>
>> don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE devs" -
>> those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
>> is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
>> the decision making processes
> Thanks for the heads up and confirmation. I was thinking along these
> lines too but I needed a more "official" statement to be sure it was ok
> for you. :)
>
> Just a quick reminder, you are the leaders of the LEDE project now, you
> cannot just ignore posts and say "it's not my thing" like when you were
> mostly developers.
> Someone from the core team (i.e. the ones with "voting power" according
> to your rules) has to at least come out with an "ack but you must do
> this yourself" or a "nack we don't like this" for proposals or important
> matters.
> Otherwise most people will default to "wait for leaders decision" as you
> saw in mails above, and that is not good for anyone.
>
> Now that you made it clear that we can arrange it ourselves we will (at
> least try to, anyway).
>
>
> -Alberto
>
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[John Crispin]

On 15/09/2016 00:10, Alberto Bursi wrote:
> I think we should avoid forums for now and should lay out the wiki's 
> plans in a wiki page and activate a plugin (there are at least a couple 
> for docuwiki) to make a "talk" page or "discussion" page like 
> Wikipedia's for wiki volunteer interactions.

why would you want the community avoid forums ? imho it solves a very
different problem than a wiki.
John

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[John Crispin]

On 15/09/2016 01:11, Alberto Bursi wrote:
> 
> 
> On 09/14/2016 12:27 AM, Jo-Philipp Wich wrote:
>> Hi Alberto,
>>
>> don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE devs" -
>> those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
>> is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
>> the decision making processes
> Thanks for the heads up and confirmation. I was thinking along these 
> lines too but I needed a more "official" statement to be sure it was ok 
> for you. :)
> 
> Just a quick reminder, you are the leaders of the LEDE project now, you 
> cannot just ignore posts and say "it's not my thing" like when you were 
> mostly developers.
> Someone from the core team (i.e. the ones with "voting power" according 
> to your rules) has to at least come out with an "ack but you must do 
> this yourself" or a "nack we don't like this" for proposals or important 
> matters.
> Otherwise most people will default to "wait for leaders decision" as you 
> saw in mails above, and that is not good for anyone.
> 
> Now that you made it clear that we can arrange it ourselves we will (at 
> least try to, anyway).
> 

i tend to disagree to your rather linear concepts of leaders and
subordinates. this strict hierarchy was what essentially broke the owrt
team up. if you need a strong leader to tell you what you can(not) do,
then you are in the wrong place buddy. consider the core team as members
of the community that have just been around for a long time and played a
big role in some part of the project. as can be seen in this
discussions, things worked out well without anyone getting involved.
everyone has a voice that he can use to proclaim ideas. the problem is
that people tend to sit around, not get involved and use the "the leader
gave no orders" excuse to legitimate their silence.

John

> 
> -Alberto
> 
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/14/2016 12:27 AM, Jo-Philipp Wich wrote:
> Hi Alberto,
>
> don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE devs" -
> those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
> is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
> the decision making processes
Thanks for the heads up and confirmation. I was thinking along these 
lines too but I needed a more "official" statement to be sure it was ok 
for you. :)

Just a quick reminder, you are the leaders of the LEDE project now, you 
cannot just ignore posts and say "it's not my thing" like when you were 
mostly developers.
Someone from the core team (i.e. the ones with "voting power" according 
to your rules) has to at least come out with an "ack but you must do 
this yourself" or a "nack we don't like this" for proposals or important 
matters.
Otherwise most people will default to "wait for leaders decision" as you 
saw in mails above, and that is not good for anyone.

Now that you made it clear that we can arrange it ourselves we will (at 
least try to, anyway).


-Alberto

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/14/2016 10:31 PM, Thomas Endt wrote:
> I advise to setup a Dokuwiki, if no one else has good reasons
> against it. Please slow me down in case I'm going too fast.
Ok for me. As long as the theme is something modern and readable, 
registered users/gardeners can rollboack edits, and there is a wysiwyg 
editor, I'm ok with it. (Docuwiki has these features at least)
> Oh, what is really needed for this build: Discussion between the volunteers,
> either via mailing list, or via forum. I'd prefer the latter, since it's
> easier to access for the standard user than a mailing list.
Well, of course a forum is better, but it also carries much more work 
than a wiki (I mean much more work to not just have a massive empty 
space where any post echoes loudly like current OpenWRT forum, that does 
not do any good).

I mean, hoping someone will answer people's questions is certainly good 
and all, but to truly kick-start a forum (i.e. attract people into it) 
you need some semi-official guys that camp there and (do their best to) 
answer people's questions, and that might become a heavy burden fast.

I think we should avoid forums for now and should lay out the wiki's 
plans in a wiki page and activate a plugin (there are at least a couple 
for docuwiki) to make a "talk" page or "discussion" page like 
Wikipedia's for wiki volunteer interactions.

-Albert

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Thomas Endt]

> From what I can see the next steps to get an actual wiki up and running
> would be:
> 
> - Assemble a team of volunteers to maintain the wiki

Let me be the first to offer my services as wiki admin to LEDE as I did to
OpenWrt.
ssh root access would be helpful. At least I need access to 
 /conf/userstyle.css
 /conf/wordblock.local.conf

Access to daily backup with easy playback script would be helpful (just in
case).


> - Among those volunteers who want to work on the wiki, decide on a
>   software / markup flavor

Reading through this thread, I see
 - some support for Dokuwiki, with the main advantages: 1) we know it is
working, 2) there is an experienced admin with in-depth knowledge of the ToH
(me)
 - no reasons against Dokuwiki
 - some notes to avoid MoinMoin
 - some mentiones of Twiki, but no good reasons to switch to it
 - some mentions of Mediawiki

To get things going, and since there is no obvious reason to switch the wiki
software, I advise to setup a Dokuwiki, if no one else has good reasons
against it. Please slow me down in case I'm going too fast.

> - Setup the chosen wiki software - we can use LEDE's donated Digital
>   Ocean resources to setup production and test instances

Very good point: Test instances!
I did this with my "demowiki" on a raspberry pi, but having a dedicated test
instance or even better clone of the productive wiki would be really great.

Looking forward to build a wiki from ground up.

Oh, what is really needed for this build: Discussion between the volunteers,
either via mailing list, or via forum. I'd prefer the latter, since it's
easier to access for the standard user than a mailing list.

Thomas


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[John Crispin]

On 14/09/2016 00:27, Jo-Philipp Wich wrote:
> Hi Alberto,
> 
> don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE devs" -
> those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
> is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
> the decision making processes :)
> 
> Part of the reason that there is no wiki yet is the fact that there is a
> lack of manpower to start one, so any extra effort spent here is more
> than welcome!
> 
> Please don't treat the general silence regarding the wiki topic as a
> sign of rejection - I think all people here would be more than happy to
> have a proper solution, it just needs someone taking the lead to get all
> required things organized.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jo
> 


Hi,

i agree with jow. what has been missing so far is the people willing to
dedicate part of their time into gardening the wiki. taking on the
maintainership of the wiki is not a small task but a rather large one
that will eat a lot of time and will continue to do so for months/years.
the risk that i see is that people are very excited and active at the
start but then after 3-6 months the excitement will fade out yet the
wiki will still require the day2day gardening. it would be a shame to
end up in such a situation.

at the end of the day its a community wiki and should be maintained by
the community. offloading the packages feed to the community. offloading
large parts of the lede workflow to community members also worked well
so i dont see why the wiki wont work if there are enough interested people.

if a team taking care of this can be setup then i would like to see them
decide which software/markup to use and we can install the wiki on the
infra, help maintain the infra part and endorse the wiki. would be
pretty awesome if we can pull that off.

John

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Jo-Philipp Wich]

Hi Alberto,

don't hold back yourself waiting for a response from "the LEDE devs" -
those who care about a wiki will likely endorse whatever good solution
is proposed and the rest either has no opinion or time to participate in
the decision making processes :)

Part of the reason that there is no wiki yet is the fact that there is a
lack of manpower to start one, so any extra effort spent here is more
than welcome!

Please don't treat the general silence regarding the wiki topic as a
sign of rejection - I think all people here would be more than happy to
have a proper solution, it just needs someone taking the lead to get all
required things organized.

Cheers,
Jo



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Jo-Philipp Wich]

Hi,

it is great to see that there is some movement in the wiki discussion :)

My personal view (and I suppose that of some other LEDE people too) is
that the decision on what wiki software to use, on how to organize
submissions and on how to structure it is at the sole discretion of the
people willing to do the actual work.

Past efforts with the OpenWrt wiki (mainly thinking about the Moinmoin
to Dokuwiki migration) have shown that it makes no sense to impose any
kind of restrictions without the gardeners consent.

I strongly support any effort to get a wiki up and running but I think
it is best if the "how" and "when" is decided by the future gardener and
user community.

>From what I can see the next steps to get an actual wiki up and running
would be:

- Assemble a team of volunteers to maintain the wiki
- Among those volunteers who want to work on the wiki, decide on a
  software / markup flavor
- Setup the chosen wiki software - we can use LEDE's donated Digital
  Ocean resources to setup production and test instances
- Start building/migrating content

Once a consensus has been reached we can start to look into whatever is
needed to setup and host the decided wiki software.

Personally I won't be able to invest too much time into the actual
content gardening but I would be more then happy to assist with hosting
matters.


Cheers,
Jo

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Jan-Tarek Butt]

Hi,

> I would definetely wait for Jow to answer on this subject. AFAIK he is quite
> busy these days.
> A LEDE wiki should be part of the LEDE infrastructure, with proper control
> and multiple admins, in order to avoid situations like at the beginning of
> this year.
> 
> Give Jow a little time to respond.

All admins can have ssh root access. I put the dokuwiki inside a LXC Container.
with global v6 and forwarded v4. We can transfare the container easily to 
another
infra.

cheers
Tarek



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/13/2016 06:50 PM, Thomas Endt wrote:
>> We got no answer from LEDE devs apart from jow saying he had some space
>> on the server and asking what wiki people prefers, but that discussion
>> died up quickly.
>> I'd personally prefer your "jump the gun" approach where someone starts
>> the wiki unofficially and all those that want to contribute do it there
>> before we get old waiting.
> I would definetely wait for Jow to answer on this subject. AFAIK he is quite
> busy these days.
> A LEDE wiki should be part of the LEDE infrastructure, with proper control
> and multiple admins, in order to avoid situations like at the beginning of
> this year.
>
> Give Jow a little time to respond.
>
> Thomas

Was just voicing some impatience...
I've been waiting for proper infrastructure from OpenWRT for far longer 
than a few months lol.


-Alberto

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Thomas Endt]

> We got no answer from LEDE devs apart from jow saying he had some space
> on the server and asking what wiki people prefers, but that discussion
> died up quickly.

> I'd personally prefer your "jump the gun" approach where someone starts
> the wiki unofficially and all those that want to contribute do it there
> before we get old waiting.

I would definetely wait for Jow to answer on this subject. AFAIK he is quite
busy these days.
A LEDE wiki should be part of the LEDE infrastructure, with proper control
and multiple admins, in order to avoid situations like at the beginning of
this year.

Give Jow a little time to respond.

Thomas


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

On 09/12/2016 10:42 PM, Jan-Tarek Butt wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Yeah, I'm also willing to dedicate some hours per week to wiki gardening, 
>> whatever wiki technology is chosen.
> Shall I do set up a dokuwiki on our open wireless community infrastructure?
>
> cheers
> Tarek

Ok for me but I'm not a LEDE dev (more like an old-time OpenWRT user), 
so yeah.

We got no answer from LEDE devs apart from jow saying he had some space 
on the server and asking what wiki people prefers, but that discussion 
died up quickly.

I'd personally prefer your "jump the gun" approach where someone starts 
the wiki unofficially and all those that want to contribute do it there 
before we get old waiting.
Whenever they feel like it they can always let the unofficial wiki 
become official, or not, it's not really relevant anymore once that wiki 
is good and working.

If you do start the wiki, please cc the news to all others that might be 
interested from last week's discussion so we can get them there.


-Alberto

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Fernando Frediani]

A while ago in the begining of the project, put my time and myself to
be one of the responsible to set it up, give it LEDE's face, and start
transfering content from OpenWrt but unfortunatelly almost nobody
bored much at the time. It seemed that if you are not a "known person"
you might not get much reply.

Here we go with this topic again, thankfuly as a nice wiki is more than needed.

I don't mind about the wiki software much, they all have pretty much
the same concept and even if it's a different one it mighy actually be
a chance to refresh formats and review information with more care.
I like MediaWiki with VisualEditor plugin. Makes it a lot friendly for
everybody to edit.

On 9 September 2016 at 21:26, J Mo  wrote:
>
> On 09/09/2016 05:17 PM, nobody in particular wrote:
>>
>> we should
>
>
>
> Less "We oughta"
>
> More "I will"
>
>
>
>
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Jan-Tarek Butt]

Hi,

> Yeah, I'm also willing to dedicate some hours per week to wiki gardening, 
> whatever wiki technology is chosen.

Shall I do set up a dokuwiki on our open wireless community infrastructure?

cheers
Tarek



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Alberto Bursi]

Yeah, I'm also willing to dedicate some hours per week to wiki 
gardening, whatever wiki technology is chosen.



On 09/10/2016 02:26 AM, J Mo wrote:


On 09/09/2016 05:17 PM, nobody in particular wrote:

we should



Less "We oughta"

More "I will"



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[David Lang]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2016, Aaron Z wrote:


Being as:
1. OpenWRT is on DocuWiki (and it seems to work fairly well)


This would seem to be a major factor. There will be enough work copying things 
and checking what's current. Eliminating the need to change links/markup/etc 
would seem to make it a no-brainer to use the same software for the LEDE wiki.


David Lang

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Josh Farwell]

@Aaron Z
> Agreed.
> I am familiar enough with flashing, configuring and Wiki editing that
> I am comfortable/willing to work on editing/cleanup of whatever wiki
> is chosen, however, my availability will be spotty until Nov as we are
> about to enter the busy season at work (12+ hour days M-F and 6-8 more
> hours on Sat).
> I do not consider myself competent to setup the backend for such a
> wiki, but I am willing to work with the pages and clean up as I have
> time.

I am in the middle of a busy season at my job as well but I will
consistently have a few hours every week to put into the wiki for the
foreseeable future.

If the project needs someone to set up and run the infra I can
volunteer, at least for the setup and administration in the short
term.

@Bill Moffet
>I'll throw out another candidate: Twiki (twiki.org).
>
>I have used it, I wasn't crazy about it, but it had some nice features. And I 
>cannot say with >certainty how it would map into our use for LEDE.

What were the features that you liked from Twiki? It's quite possible
that we could install some extensions to Dokuwiki that can give us
similar functionality; there's a pretty active community around them.

I'm certainly not opposed to using other Wiki software either; my only
real opinion is that there are better options than the classic
standby, Mediawiki. Besides that and Doku, the only other one I've
personally hosted is MoinMoin, and I don't really recommend it. I
guess I've run Confluence too but unless someone's got a friend at
Atlassian it's not really viable.

One of the ones I've always been interested in is Gollum; it powers
the Github wikis. [1] I'm not sure if it piques anyone else's
interest. I think that access control is only available via a patch
though.

-- J

[1] https://github.com/gollum/gollum/wiki

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Aaron Z  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 8:26 PM, J Mo  wrote:
>> On 09/09/2016 05:17 PM, nobody in particular wrote:
>>> we should
>> Less "We oughta"
>> More "I will"

>
> Being as:
> 1. OpenWRT is on DocuWiki (and it seems to work fairly well)
> 2. There doesn't seem to be a burning reason to switch to something else
> 3. (most importantly) There are three people (Rich Brown, Tomasz End
> and Josh Farwell) who (if I am reading their emails correctly) are
> willing, capable and able to work on porting the data over to a LEDE
> DokuWiki
>
> I would say lets move forward with DokuWiki.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> Aaron Z
>
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-- 
Josh Farwell
#971-235-4868
josh.farw...@gmail.com

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Aaron Z]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 8:26 PM, J Mo  wrote:
> On 09/09/2016 05:17 PM, nobody in particular wrote:
>> we should
> Less "We oughta"
> More "I will"
Agreed.
I am familiar enough with flashing, configuring and Wiki editing that
I am comfortable/willing to work on editing/cleanup of whatever wiki
is chosen, however, my availability will be spotty until Nov as we are
about to enter the busy season at work (12+ hour days M-F and 6-8 more
hours on Sat).
I do not consider myself competent to setup the backend for such a
wiki, but I am willing to work with the pages and clean up as I have
time.

Being as:
1. OpenWRT is on DocuWiki (and it seems to work fairly well)
2. There doesn't seem to be a burning reason to switch to something else
3. (most importantly) There are three people (Rich Brown, Tomasz End
and Josh Farwell) who (if I am reading their emails correctly) are
willing, capable and able to work on porting the data over to a LEDE
DokuWiki

I would say lets move forward with DokuWiki.

Just my $0.02

Aaron Z

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Aaron Z]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Bill Moffitt  wrote:
> I'll throw out another candidate: Twiki (twiki.org).
> I have used it, I wasn't crazy about it, but it had some nice features. And
> I cannot say with certainty how it would map into our use for LEDE.
If going that route, IMO we should use Foswiki as one of the original
Twiki devs took over the Twiki project and declared himself
"benevolent dictator for life" (causing Foswiki to be forked from
Twiki). For the gory details, see:
https://foswiki.org/About.WhyThisFork

I have used Twiki and it is not bad to work with, looking at the
comparison on 
http://www.wikimatrix.org/compare/DokuWiki+Foswiki+Oddmuse+Tiki-Wiki-CMS-Groupware
it
looks to be very similar to DokuWiki, just using different symbols to
do the markup.

Aaron Z

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Bill Moffitt]

I'll throw out another candidate: Twiki (twiki.org).

I have used it, I wasn't crazy about it, but it had some nice features. 
And I cannot say with certainty how it would map into our use for LEDE.


I haven't used DokuWiki, so I can't say how it stacks up.

An admittedly weak endorsement, and I will be interested in hearing 
differing views.


Thanks,

Bill

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Josh Farwell]

Hello Folks!

I'm new to this project and excited to be here. I used to work for the
Linux Foundation as a sysadmin where part of my job was to curate and
run infra for the wikis of several open source projects sponsored by
the LF.

I am no longer employed or associated with them, but I would love to
contribute to a project and I am excited about LEDE. I am willing to
pitch in and help with the wiki.

Dokuwiki is what I would highly recommend as well; I like its markup
language and I REALLY like the access control options, which Mediawiki
simply doesn't support without poorly maintained extensions.

My main question at this point is how much of the existing OpenWRT and
other Linux documentation can be ported in to a LEDE wiki? If I'm not
mistaken, there's generally feature parity between OpenWRT and LEDE
right now aside from LEDE having support for more devices. Can we
simply start porting the OpenWRT wiki over and edit, clean and make
corrections to the content?

I also feel like it's important to go into this project with a solid
goal in mind - some wikis, such as the PFSense wiki, are all about
accessible step-by-step instructions to set up common network and
application configurations with the distro's specific interfaces,
while explaining details about the different setups in an accessible
way. DD-WRT has similar documentation.

Is this a goal of the LEDE project? If it is, the wiki is a big
project and it will need a lot of care and feeding as things change,
and there are a lot of improvements that can be made on the existing
OpenWRT content. If it's instead meant to be a repository of
information about LEDE-specific features which are not common in other
Linux distributions, along with links to relevant documentation from
other projects which LEDE is leveraging, the wiki becomes simpler,
smaller, and easier to keep completely up-to-date, but less friendly
to newcomers.

-- Josh

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Thomas Endt  wrote:
>> I recommend we use Dokuwiki as the primary means of maintaining the
>> LEDE documentation.
>
> That would be my first choice, too.
> However, if there is another wiki that has significant advantages over
> Dokuwiki, I wouldn't mind to try something new.
>
> One thing to keep in mind when chosing a new wiki software: At least two
> people are needed that bring some knowledge about this software with them.
>
>
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A Wiki for LEDE Documentation

[Thomas Endt]

> I recommend we use Dokuwiki as the primary means of maintaining the
> LEDE documentation.

That would be my first choice, too.
However, if there is another wiki that has significant advantages over
Dokuwiki, I wouldn't mind to try something new.

One thing to keep in mind when chosing a new wiki software: At least two
people are needed that bring some knowledge about this software with them.


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