Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Daniel Curran-Dickinson]

On 16-05-18 12:52 AM, John Crispin wrote:
> 
> 
>> I was told in the past by one of founding LEDE team members (who shall
>> rename nameless unless he chooses to comment himself), that if I really
>> wanted to participate in OpenWrt community that I needed to be on IRC
>> (in a private mail to me).
> 
> the way you word this you are prolly pointing at me. at openwrt, irc/IM

Actually it wasn't - I just didn't want to point fingers without permission.

> was an integral part i guess. i don't consider it to be integral for
> lede at all. right now it seems to be used for general support foo and
> "could you quickly do this" "what do you think about that" "have you
> seen". as you may have noticed that amount of general discussion on the
> mailing list has increased and people seem to be a lot more responsive.

Yes, I've noticed this list seems a lot more communicative.  I'm glad to
hear the intent is for it to be a first class citizen; I was worried it
was going to be like the past, but I really breaking with the past is
the reason for the split in the first place, so I look forward to a
brighter future (which helps for someone who tends to a 'glass
half-empty' kind of person).

Regards,

Daniel

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[John Crispin]

On 18/05/2016 03:10, Daniel Curran-Dickinson wrote:
> On 16-05-17 05:22 AM, John Crispin wrote:
>> well that is status quo, IRC is used to discuss real time stuff and give
>> user support.
>>
>> all other stuff is on the list. meetings being the only thing still on
>> IRC due to lack of better options right now. meetings are however held
>> late during EU TZ which is early US to accommodate both timezones. so i
>> am not really getting the point of this thread. people seem to be
>> arguing over something that is not even the case. no one requested
>> anyone to be on IRC. all other means of comms are possible and get used
>> to the same extend as IRC.
> 
> I was told in the past by one of founding LEDE team members (who shall
> rename nameless unless he chooses to comment himself), that if I really
> wanted to participate in OpenWrt community that I needed to be on IRC
> (in a private mail to me).

the way you word this you are prolly pointing at me. at openwrt, irc/IM
was an integral part i guess. i don't consider it to be integral for
lede at all. right now it seems to be used for general support foo and
"could you quickly do this" "what do you think about that" "have you
seen". as you may have noticed that amount of general discussion on the
mailing list has increased and people seem to be a lot more responsive.

John

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Bruno Randolf]

On 17/05/16 09:46, andrew wrote:
> How about something like rocket.chat or one of the opensource self
> hosted alternatives?

Don't get me wrong, the problem is not IRC itself, there are definetly
good uses for it. I'm NOT saying people should not use IRC to
coordinate. My point is: hanging out (async or not) in IRC should not be
required for people to be part of this project as that would again
increase the barrier to participating, instead of lowering it. That just
simply means important issues and decisions should be carried out on the
mailing list, not in IRC.

bruno



> On Mon, 2016-05-16 at 17:29 -0400, Daniel Curran-Dickinson wrote:
>> On 16-05-16 05:18 PM, Daniel Curran-Dickinson wrote:
>>>
>>> The objective is so that you don't have isolated pools of TZ's
>>> where one
>>> TZ has little insight into what the other TZ is doing and has no
>>> *good*
>>> mechanisms for communicating across timezones.
>>>
>>> Reading IRC chat logs is an exercise is pain for many, so that's
>>> not
>>> really the answer for cross-timezone communication.
>>>
>>> IRC, for many of us, is something that is only useful when it's
>>> realtime.
>>>
>> It is also difficult to follow *threads* of conversation that are
>> severely time-delayed.
>>
>> In addition, in order to not miss messages you really need to set up
>> a
>> bouncer that is always on and keeps a unread messages even across an
>> unexpected reboot or logging out of your console/gui session.
>>
>> Email is far superior for time-delayed threads of communication.  If
>> you're having problems with managing your email, it's your email
>> strategy that needs to change, not the use of email.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan iel
>>
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Ben Greear]

On 05/16/2016 03:42 PM, Aaron Z wrote:

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Ben Greear  wrote:

Maybe get an IRC bot to dump irc logs to the mailing list every few
hours?  Might be a bit spammy though

IMO, trying to follow IRC when its not realtime (ie: reading a log)
makes it somewhat difficult to follow threads of conversations (which
email does quite well) and it can be confusing unless there is some
way to put a "this post goes in this thread" for each post (and at
that point, you might as well use email).


Yes, I like email too.  But IRC has its uses, and maybe better to have it
spammed to the mailing list that just plain lost/ignored.

Thanks,
Ben


--
Ben Greear 
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Ben Greear]

Maybe get an IRC bot to dump irc logs to the mailing list every few
hours?  Might be a bit spammy though

Ben

On 05/16/2016 12:08 PM, Dave Taht wrote:

znc and bitlbee are godsends when using irc asynchronously.

In particular I feed all irc convos into bitlbee and then into erc on
emacs (so I am not hurt when my connection goes away).



On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 5:00 AM, David Woodhouse  wrote:

On Mon, 2016-05-16 at 12:46 +0100, Bruno Randolf wrote:

On 15/05/16 05:53, Daniel Dickinson wrote:


I'd really appreciate if we could actually use the mailing list for the
main communications venue rather than shutting out people not in the
European timezones, which is what happens if IRC is the main way to
participate in the community.

I have been told that to really be part of the OpenWrt action I should
have been on IRC; but I'm not in European timezone so that is not
actually a useful suggestion, since most of the most people most
relevant to decision-making are in Europe, and I would hope LEDE has a
more *inter-continental focus than OpenWrt had.

Agreed! I don't have time to hang out in IRC channels, usually. Or maybe
a different working style... (it distracts me too much). Anyhow I think
all important things and all things which don't need real-time
interaction should go thru the mailing list, please.


FWIW, IRC doesn't have to have real-time behaviour, and doesn't have to
be constantly distracting.

It's perfectly possible to have IRC conversations with people who are
never awake at the same time as you. You say something, they respond
when they wake up... and you respond when *you* wake up. Just like
email, in fact.

IRC gives you the *option* of real-time conversation, if you happen to
be awake at the same time.

And you don't have to pay attention to the channel all the time; an IRC
client should highlight if your nick is mentioned because someone is
talking you to specifically.

IRC is great for conversations which are more ephemeral, and don't need
to be archived for posterity.

--
dwmw2


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--
Ben Greear 
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Daniel Curran-Dickinson]

On 16-05-16 05:18 PM, Daniel Curran-Dickinson wrote:
> The objective is so that you don't have isolated pools of TZ's where one
> TZ has little insight into what the other TZ is doing and has no *good*
> mechanisms for communicating across timezones.
> 
> Reading IRC chat logs is an exercise is pain for many, so that's not
> really the answer for cross-timezone communication.
> 
> IRC, for many of us, is something that is only useful when it's realtime.
> 

It is also difficult to follow *threads* of conversation that are
severely time-delayed.

In addition, in order to not miss messages you really need to set up a
bouncer that is always on and keeps a unread messages even across an
unexpected reboot or logging out of your console/gui session.

Email is far superior for time-delayed threads of communication.  If
you're having problems with managing your email, it's your email
strategy that needs to change, not the use of email.

Regards,

Dan iel

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Felix Fietkau]

On 2016-05-16 21:14, Bruno Randolf wrote:
> On 16/05/16 20:08, Dave Taht wrote:
>> znc and bitlbee are godsends when using irc asynchronously.
>> 
>> In particular I feed all irc convos into bitlbee and then into erc on
>> emacs (so I am not hurt when my connection goes away).
> 
> Well, thanks for the hints, but please just accept the fact that IRC is
> not part of everyones working mode.
One of the ideas that was tossed around was using LiquidFeedback to
replace the IRC meeting voting stuff. We're still looking into it...

- Felix

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[David Woodhouse]

On Mon, 2016-05-16 at 12:46 +0100, Bruno Randolf wrote:
> On 15/05/16 05:53, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
> > 
> > I'd really appreciate if we could actually use the mailing list for the
> > main communications venue rather than shutting out people not in the
> > European timezones, which is what happens if IRC is the main way to
> > participate in the community.
> > 
> > I have been told that to really be part of the OpenWrt action I should
> > have been on IRC; but I'm not in European timezone so that is not
> > actually a useful suggestion, since most of the most people most
> > relevant to decision-making are in Europe, and I would hope LEDE has a
> > more *inter-continental focus than OpenWrt had.
> Agreed! I don't have time to hang out in IRC channels, usually. Or maybe
> a different working style... (it distracts me too much). Anyhow I think
> all important things and all things which don't need real-time
> interaction should go thru the mailing list, please.

FWIW, IRC doesn't have to have real-time behaviour, and doesn't have to
be constantly distracting.

It's perfectly possible to have IRC conversations with people who are
never awake at the same time as you. You say something, they respond
when they wake up... and you respond when *you* wake up. Just like
email, in fact.

IRC gives you the *option* of real-time conversation, if you happen to
be awake at the same time.

And you don't have to pay attention to the channel all the time; an IRC
client should highlight if your nick is mentioned because someone is
talking you to specifically.

IRC is great for conversations which are more ephemeral, and don't need
to be archived for posterity.

-- 
dwmw2



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Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Bruno Randolf]

On 15/05/16 05:53, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
> I'd really appreciate if we could actually use the mailing list for the
> main communications venue rather than shutting out people not in the
> European timezones, which is what happens if IRC is the main way to
> participate in the community.
> 
> I have been told that to really be part of the OpenWrt action I should
> have been on IRC; but I'm not in European timezone so that is not
> actually a useful suggestion, since most of the most people most
> relevant to decision-making are in Europe, and I would hope LEDE has a
> more *inter-continental focus than OpenWrt had.

Agreed! I don't have time to hang out in IRC channels, usually. Or maybe
a different working style... (it distracts me too much). Anyhow I think
all important things and all things which don't need real-time
interaction should go thru the mailing list, please.

bruno


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[LEDE-DEV] A request not making IRC necessary to be part of the action

[Daniel Dickinson]

Hi,

I'd really appreciate if we could actually use the mailing list for the
main communications venue rather than shutting out people not in the
European timezones, which is what happens if IRC is the main way to
participate in the community.

I have been told that to really be part of the OpenWrt action I should
have been on IRC; but I'm not in European timezone so that is not
actually a useful suggestion, since most of the most people most
relevant to decision-making are in Europe, and I would hope LEDE has a
more *inter-continental focus than OpenWrt had.

Regards,

Daniel

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