RE: CNC Topics
Tim, thank you for the kind words. Rich Goldner Indexer Wizards http://WizardsbyRich.yolasite.com -Original Message- From: legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Krause Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:58 PM To: legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com Subject: CNC Topics Hi All, I don't mind CNC chat at all, as long as it applies to ornamental turning or the Legacy equipment. It's the future and I know we have people on the list that own both manual and cnc machines. I encourage those user to speak up and show off, or talk about the problems of computer controlled woodworking. This remind me that another member here, Rich Goldner, is still going strong with his Wizards for Mach3 that enable you to use your 4th axis as an indexer for making polygons, reeding, tapers, rounds, engraving text and more. I'm not a user of his software, but it looks good to me. http://wizardsbyrich.yolasite.com/ Tell Rich I sent you :-) -Tim - Original Message - From: "fasteddy" To: "Legacy Ornamental Mills" Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Bye bye... Will take pics and do a video on youtube and will post them here if you like, not really a legacy subject though.. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/legacy-ornamental-mills?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/legacy-ornamental-mills?hl=en.
RE: Flats on the end of Barley Twist
It sounds as if either the rails that hold the router are tilted or the tailstock is lower than the headstock. Rich Goldner Indexer Wizards http://www.wizardsbyrich.embarqspace.com -Original Message- From: legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of woodche...@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 11:47 AM To: Legacy Ornamental Mills Subject: Flats on the end of Barley Twist I have been busy turning a cane using a 1" barley twist with two starts. The turnings start out fine and continue about 6 inches; however, after that flats start showing up. What is causing the flats? Can you please help me out? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/legacy-ornamental-mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Noobe questions..
I have about 20 pictures and some text that explains the rotary axis. I will be happy to email this to anyone who would like a copy. Just send me an email request. -Original Message- From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Krause Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:13 PM To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. Hi Rich, I believe that Joe's forum is private. You have to purchase the plan set to enter. Do you care to share your photos? I'm curious too. -Tim - Original Message ----- From: "Rich Goldner" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: RE: Noobe questions.. Yes, I designed my own rotary axis. Take a look at the pictures on Joe's forum (under mods/fourth axis) and you will see how easy it is to build, no plans needed. Yes, I use Mach3 (I have been using Mach3 and its predecessors for about eight years). Joe's hybrid as well as my rotary axis use steppers. I use Gecko G203V stepper drivers. I have seen no effects from humidity on the MDF. The three carriages are sealed and painted. The MDF table is bare. -Original Message- From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of SteveEJ Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:52 PM To: Legacy Ornamental Mills Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. Rich, Is the rotary axis mod you speak of your own design or are there actual printed plans for it? Does your Joe use Mach3 for control or something else? I presume it uses stepper motors and controllers as well? Also, does humidity have any type of adverse effect on the MFD framing? (I presume that it is painted and sealed well). Thanks, Steve On Jul 28, 1:45 pm, "Rich Goldner" wrote: > Actually, you will be able to handle rotary stock up to about 12" X 40" if you build your rotary axis the same way I did. > > > > -Original Message- > From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com > [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of > akran...@tx.rr.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:11 PM > To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com > > Cc: SteveEJ > Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. > > > How is the company to work with for service and support? This > > question makes it very obvious that you are new to this forum. I am not the one to answer this question because I believe that it is safe to say that I am VERY!! low on Legacy's love list. > > My sugestion is to build the Joe CNC 4by4 Hybrid and add a rotary > axis. This will give you a fully functionaly CNC router and ability tt do rotary stock up tp 6" by 36". Total cost will be around $3500 which is les than the CNC 900 and a lot more useful machine. > > SteveEJ wrote: > > > Pens, Mouldings - both straight and curved, spindles, pilasters, > > limited jointery. > > > Is it more cost effective to buy the CNC up front or get the non-CNC > > version and upgrade later? ie: will there be parts/adapters that are > > removed and not used anymore once the CNC is installed? > > > How is the company to work with for service and support? > > > Thanks again, > > > Steve > > > On Jul 27, 8:10 pm, wrote: > > > There are several options avaliable but most important is what do > > > you wnat the machine for > > > > SteveEJ wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > I am new here and looking seriously at buying a Legacy 900. > > > > There are several options available as well as a CNC upgrade. > > > > The Legacy web site is not very informative about the CNC upgrade(s). > > > > With money and the economy being as it is, and I am saving for > > > > the machine I want to make sure that I make good decisions up front. > > > > So with that in mind, is buying a 900 without the CNC upgrade > > > > smart or would it be better if I save a little longer and get > > > > the machine with the CNC upgrade? I don't want to but > > > > accessories and have them obsolete as soon as I get the upgrade. > > > > Another concern I have is the company itself. Post purchase > > > > service and help is a big thing for me. I may be a little gun > > > > shy here as I bought a CarveWright and had repair issues right > > > > out of the box. Down time really has put a damper on my enthuasiam towards the CarveWright. > > > > It is working well, for now and I wanted to mix the capabilities > > > > of each to make some unique hand down furniture, etc. > > > > Software requirements. Is there any software that is not > > > > provide
RE: Noobe questions..
Yes, I designed my own rotary axis. Take a look at the pictures on Joe's forum (under mods/fourth axis) and you will see how easy it is to build, no plans needed. Yes, I use Mach3 (I have been using Mach3 and its predecessors for about eight years). Joe's hybrid as well as my rotary axis use steppers. I use Gecko G203V stepper drivers. I have seen no effects from humidity on the MDF. The three carriages are sealed and painted. The MDF table is bare. -Original Message- From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of SteveEJ Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 5:52 PM To: Legacy Ornamental Mills Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. Rich, Is the rotary axis mod you speak of your own design or are there actual printed plans for it? Does your Joe use Mach3 for control or something else? I presume it uses stepper motors and controllers as well? Also, does humidity have any type of adverse effect on the MFD framing? (I presume that it is painted and sealed well). Thanks, Steve On Jul 28, 1:45 pm, "Rich Goldner" wrote: > Actually, you will be able to handle rotary stock up to about 12" X 40" if you build your rotary axis the same way I did. > > > > -Original Message- > From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com > [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of > akran...@tx.rr.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:11 PM > To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com > > Cc: SteveEJ > Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. > > > How is the company to work with for service and support? This > > question makes it very obvious that you are new to this forum. I am not the one to answer this question because I believe that it is safe to say that I am VERY!! low on Legacy's love list. > > My sugestion is to build the Joe CNC 4by4 Hybrid and add a rotary > axis. This will give you a fully functionaly CNC router and ability tt do rotary stock up tp 6" by 36". Total cost will be around $3500 which is les than the CNC 900 and a lot more useful machine. > > SteveEJ wrote: > > > Pens, Mouldings - both straight and curved, spindles, pilasters, > > limited jointery. > > > Is it more cost effective to buy the CNC up front or get the non-CNC > > version and upgrade later? ie: will there be parts/adapters that are > > removed and not used anymore once the CNC is installed? > > > How is the company to work with for service and support? > > > Thanks again, > > > Steve > > > On Jul 27, 8:10 pm, wrote: > > > There are several options avaliable but most important is what do > > > you wnat the machine for > > > > SteveEJ wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > I am new here and looking seriously at buying a Legacy 900. > > > > There are several options available as well as a CNC upgrade. > > > > The Legacy web site is not very informative about the CNC upgrade(s). > > > > With money and the economy being as it is, and I am saving for > > > > the machine I want to make sure that I make good decisions up front. > > > > So with that in mind, is buying a 900 without the CNC upgrade > > > > smart or would it be better if I save a little longer and get > > > > the machine with the CNC upgrade? I don't want to but > > > > accessories and have them obsolete as soon as I get the upgrade. > > > > Another concern I have is the company itself. Post purchase > > > > service and help is a big thing for me. I may be a little gun > > > > shy here as I bought a CarveWright and had repair issues right > > > > out of the box. Down time really has put a damper on my enthuasiam towards the CarveWright. > > > > It is working well, for now and I wanted to mix the capabilities > > > > of each to make some unique hand down furniture, etc. > > > > Software requirements. Is there any software that is not > > > > provided with the CNC upgrade that would be considered essential? > > > > If so, how much more of an investment would that be? > > > > > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience! > > > > > Steve Jacobs > > > > Brighton, TN- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Noobe questions..
Actually, you will be able to handle rotary stock up to about 12" X 40" if you build your rotary axis the same way I did. -Original Message- From: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com [mailto:legacy-ornamental-mi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of akran...@tx.rr.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:11 PM To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com Cc: SteveEJ Subject: Re: Noobe questions.. > How is the company to work with for service and support? This question makes > it very obvious that you are new to this forum. I am not the one to answer > this question because I believe that it is safe to say that I am VERY!! low > on Legacy's love list. My sugestion is to build the Joe CNC 4by4 Hybrid and add a rotary axis. This will give you a fully functionaly CNC router and ability tt do rotary stock up tp 6" by 36". Total cost will be around $3500 which is les than the CNC 900 and a lot more useful machine. SteveEJ wrote: > > Pens, Mouldings - both straight and curved, spindles, pilasters, > limited jointery. > > Is it more cost effective to buy the CNC up front or get the non-CNC > version and upgrade later? ie: will there be parts/adapters that are > removed and not used anymore once the CNC is installed? > > How is the company to work with for service and support? > > Thanks again, > > Steve > > On Jul 27, 8:10 pm, wrote: > > There are several options avaliable but most important is what do > > you wnat the machine for > > > > > > > > SteveEJ wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > I am new here and looking seriously at buying a Legacy 900. > > > There are several options available as well as a CNC upgrade. The > > > Legacy web site is not very informative about the CNC upgrade(s). > > > With money and the economy being as it is, and I am saving for the > > > machine I want to make sure that I make good decisions up front. > > > So with that in mind, is buying a 900 without the CNC upgrade > > > smart or would it be better if I save a little longer and get the > > > machine with the CNC upgrade? I don't want to but accessories and > > > have them obsolete as soon as I get the upgrade. > > > Another concern I have is the company itself. Post purchase > > > service and help is a big thing for me. I may be a little gun shy > > > here as I bought a CarveWright and had repair issues right out of > > > the box. Down time really has put a damper on my enthuasiam towards the > > > CarveWright. > > > It is working well, for now and I wanted to mix the capabilities > > > of each to make some unique hand down furniture, etc. > > > Software requirements. Is there any software that is not > > > provided with the CNC upgrade that would be considered essential? > > > If so, how much more of an investment would that be? > > > > > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience! > > > > > Steve Jacobs > > > Brighton, TN- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rich's Indexer Wizards
You don't have to wait for a standalone version (no due date yet). Download and install the Mach3 demo (no cost). Purchase and install my wizards. After using my wizard and returning to the Mach3 main page just press the "Edit G-Code" button. Notepad will start and will show the code from the wizard. Use notepad to save the code to a file of your choice. Then use that file with the shopbot conversion utility. My wizards use the surface of the cylinder as Z zero except for the rounding wizard. With the rounding wizard you have to use the center of the rotary axis as Z zero. If you didn't do that you might not get the diameter you wished sinc the material could be rough or off center. All of my wizards allow you to set the max depth of cut per pass. - Original Message - From: "hooligan" To: "Legacy Ornamental Mills" Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 1:29 AM Subject: Re: Rich's Indexer Wizards > > Rich, > If I understand correctly a standalone version would be > advantageous to me, who does not use the legacy or mach3 but a > shopbot. When we last spoke Shopbot did not have the ability to > translate A,B moves in its software from files that were created > within mach3. It now has that ability. > > So I could see how Shopbot users could take advantage of this and it > would open it up to use by other users. > > Forgive me since i don't recall but do your wizards use the center of > the material for its Zzero? > If so I would recommend you set your wizards to be able to Zero of the > material surface. > > I found in my spiral wizard regardless of diameter I could just zero > to surface and make spirals much more quickly and not have to do a lot > of math for each piece. This saves time if you are doing ballusters > and repeated with material that isn't all the same size. > > I also set it up so that you could divide the toolpath depth of cut in > two. Half depth in the way down the cylinder and half on the way back. > That helped so as not to cut in one pass too deep, especially when you > try to do hollow spirals. > This sounds interesting so keep us informed and if you need anyone to > test toolpaths i'd volunteer. > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone want to sell OM5 software?
Hi Art. What specifically are you looking for in the wizards? This is a good time to talk about this as I am just starting a major update with new functionality. - Original Message - From: To: Cc: "hooligan" Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Anyone want to sell OM5 software? > > I put a bug in in Rich's ear so maybe he will take it on. Tell me more > about the software you developed. > hooligan wrote: >> >> I have 2 suggestions...first talk to Rich Goldner and see if this is >> something he would want to take on. If not then here is what I did, I >> went to http://www.rentacoder.com and talked to a guy who helped me >> write an application that i use to make spirals and other designs >> using a designed interface and basically is a standalone program. >> I spent around $200.00 for this guys time to help me with about 15 >> different versions and upgrades till we got it right. >> Since this is run under mach3 and all you cnc guys with your legacys >> run mach3 then it seems like if you know what this om5 is supposed to >> do you can get one of these programmers to build you something from >> scratch as I did. >> Even if you spent $1000.00 to have it done then divvy it up between >> (X) number of you guys and it will cost less than you paid for those >> conversational forms (that don't work). >> Has anyone here bought one of those expensive routers they sell and >> gotten the software and does it work? I haven't heard of anyone who is >> a satisfied customer and is using it in the field has anyone here >> heard? >> > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: This is the plan
Art, I'm hoping to finish up my rotary axis for the hybrid within two weeks. Mine will be able to handle stock up to eight inches in diameter. I will be able to do this by rotating the router 90 degrees. Essentially the Y axis will be used as the Z axis. I have my axes setup differently then Joe's. My Y axis is the gantry and the X axis are the two non-moving 8020 extrusions. This is just the opposite of Joe's. I shortly will start work on a new wizard to be added to my indexer wizards package. This wizard will allow you to draw a profile in VCarvePro or another Cam program. It will then carve that profile into the stock. Think of making a drawing of a baseball bat (actually only drawing half of the profile since any profile on a rotary axis is symmetrical) and then using that drawing to carve the stock into a baseball bat. It should work with just about any profile. I have been thinking about how to do this for a long time and think that I finally have it figured out. I hope that you will be willing to test it when it's finished. As promised, once the profile wizard is finished all previous customers will get it as a free upgrade. - Original Message - From: akransom To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:16 PM Subject: This is the plan I will post details of the Hybrid on my site. Since I have router capabilities with the Evolution I will be milling the parts on it and some materials may varied since I have access to all sorts of things. The plans for the rotary axis is that it will be bolted to the table when needed and will be 6" by 48" capacity. Joe's designed so that the builder has very limted tools to work with. I will vary some because of the tools I have avaliable. The base will be welded instead of Unistrut. As to the wizards from Legacy, I believed they quoted $25 for the upgrade before they found out that I didn't have one of their machines and hung up. I will get back with them and see what can be worked out. Art Ransom Lancaster,Texas USA www.turningaround.org akran...@tx.rr.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: wizards
Yes, the rope was cut in two passes, but the form did not have a field for specifying the max depth of cut. - Original Message - From: "akransom" To: Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:48 PM Subject: Re: wizards > > Not realy sure. The rope was cut in two passes. Anyway I will call > tomorrow and see if I can get the free upgrade. > Art Ransom > Lancaster,Texas USA > www.turningaround.org > akran...@tx.rr.com > - Original Message - > From: "Rich Goldner" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:27 PM > Subject: Re: wizards > > >> >> I just watched the video. At least one of the original problems appears >> to >> still be in the conversational forms. It doesn't appear that you can >> specify >> a max depth of cut in order to take multiple cutting passes. >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "gregm" >> To: "Legacy Ornamental Mills" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:41 PM >> Subject: Re: wizards >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Wow! >>> its like legacy can read my mind!!! >>> they just sent out a video on the new rev 2.2 on there "conversational >>> Form, I Mean CAM" Cant wait for them to send it to me!! ;-) I did >>> notice a bug though in the smart tool, if you watch the video, they >>> cut to a new shot but look how hi the spindle is and how long it would >>> take the z to travel that far that slow, i still think a tool table >>> within mach3 w/ tool offsets is better and faster than the smart tool. >>> Greg >>> > >> >> >> > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: wizards
I just watched the video. At least one of the original problems appears to still be in the conversational forms. It doesn't appear that you can specify a max depth of cut in order to take multiple cutting passes. - Original Message - From: "gregm" To: "Legacy Ornamental Mills" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:41 PM Subject: Re: wizards > > > > Wow! > its like legacy can read my mind!!! > they just sent out a video on the new rev 2.2 on there "conversational > Form, I Mean CAM" Cant wait for them to send it to me!! ;-) I did > notice a bug though in the smart tool, if you watch the video, they > cut to a new shot but look how hi the spindle is and how long it would > take the z to travel that far that slow, i still think a tool table > within mach3 w/ tool offsets is better and faster than the smart tool. > Greg > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to legacy-ornamental-mills+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Trade show
Legacy is offering a service to convert your flat gcode to wrap around a cylinder. I believe they are charging $10 a pop. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon to have made a mistake in CAD and have to do this multiple times. That can get pretty expensive. My wrap wizard doesn't change gcode it makes Mach3 believe that the rotary axis is the Y axis and automatically makes the flat gcode work to wrap around the cylinder. My wizards only cost $75 and can do much more then just wrap code around a cylinder. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Re: Trade show Hi Curt Thanks for the reply. Converting a flat carving and doing it in the round I wonder if this is the same as Rich's wrap program. If Rich sees this reply please. Was Tracy comparing stepper motors versus servos? Since the unit was only 4 feet long, the play and twisting along the X axis due to only one lead screw would be less than the longer units. Was the CNC upgrade the performance or the standard upgrade? No mention of support for non CNC users? Regards, Ron -- One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com today! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Legacy Ornamental Mills" group. To post to this group, send email to Legacy-Ornamental-Mills@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Legacy-Ornamental-Mills -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
