Re: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: NLSF & OSM license check / comments needed

[Michael Collinson]

Hi Pekka,

Thanks for taking this on. I have put some comments in-line. The usual 
caveat, IANAL!



Dear Friends,

This legal-lists seem to be quite quiet. So, maybe you all have plenty 
of time to discuss about National Land Survey of Finland (NLSF) 
license vs. OSM licenses.


As you may know, NLSF has released all their topographic information 
for free use. Their license is open, more open than OSM (CC-BY-SA or 
ODbL). I think. You can read NLSF's license terms: 
http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/NLS_open_data_licence_version1_20120501


It seems that quite OSMers in Finland like to benefit NLSF data sets. 
We have good discussion going on about imports,  background 
map/imagery usage etc. Mainly discussions will be in Finnish on IRC, 
forums and mailing lists.


Now we have also some legal questions and I'd like to hear your comments:

· Is NLSF Open Data license compatible with OSM current and new license?

There is a problem wíth 2.2 "require third parties to provide the same 
information when granting rights to copies of dataset(s) or products and 
services containing such data and"


This should be theoretically OK under CC-BY-SA but does imply that any 
user of OSM data is going to have to check whether it contains it 
contains NLSF data and attribute, even on a map. The impracticability of 
this was a major reason for moving away from CC-BY-SA.


ODbL does not force map makers to attribute each and every contributor. 
This is by design but would violate this NLSF requirement.  We had the 
same problem with the Ordnance Survey in the UK. I can email you the 
text that I sent them to explain the issue.


· If we import NLSF data, we need to add link to their license into 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en. Right?


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution is the "official" place. 
 Merging the two together in some way is an LWG TODO.


· Contributors: we need to add NLSF to this page: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution. Is there any "format" 
what they should answer? Should this demand come from OSMF or can I do it?


You can do it.  The attribution given to the Ordance Survey can be used 
as a template.


· NLSF terms of use, section 2.2 last bullet:
/...remove the name of the Licensor from the product or service, if 
required to do so by the Licensor
/Some people think that this is barrier and OSM license won't accept 
this. Personally I don't see any problems with this. If we import NLSF 
data to OSM (and we have mentions in wiki about their copyright etc.) 
and in the future NLSF demands to remove their name, we can remove it 
from wiki pages. We don't include NLSF name in every single copy 
(digital and/or analog) and we don't clear NLSF names from OSM copies.


I agree with you.  The English version unambiguously talks about 
removing the "name" of the Licensor, not the "data" of the Licensor. 
Easy enough.


Mike


If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask in the list or 
directly. I also promise to act as contact person between OSM and 
NLSF, there is already some confusion and I will make separate email 
about that.


Rgs,

Pekka

--

Pekka Sarkola

Gispo Oy

pekka.sark...@gispo.fi    - GSM +358 
40 725 2042


www.gispo.fi  -- www.paikkatieto.com 




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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Best-Practise to use OSM data in games

[Thomas Trocha]

Thx for your reply and informative statements. Actually I thought the
data would have been released under ODbl since 1st April,... But I think
until any game would be ready to be released the new license will have
been activated. :D 

Btw, thx to Frederik for forwarding my posting from
help.openstreetmap.org to this much more appropriate place. Just to be
complete here his statement from the help-site:

Frederik Ramm:
"First off osm have not changed its license yet. It is still on CC
BY-SA.

Copyright is the rights of a work after it is published, you and your
users can have data derrived from osm data unpublished without any
problems. That means that any data your users generate based on osm data
that is not published does not have to be under any license, and you are
not forced to publish it.

CC BY-SA and ODbL does not require you to hand out the data on request,
or in a human readable format. But the data you do release in whatever
for or to whomever you release it to have to be released under an open
license. But we do love it if you use an open format when you release
it.
"




On Do, 2012-05-10 at 15:19 +0100, Jonathan Harley wrote:
> On 10/05/12 14:01, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > I am re-posting this from 
> > http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/12656/best-practise-to-use-osm-data-in-games.
> >  
> > The original author is "dertom95".
> >
> >  ---
> >
> > Is there really a way to use osm-data in games that comply the odbl?
> >
> 
> My replies below relate only to ODbL.
> (Under the current CC-BY-SA, the game itself would probably have to be 
> distributed as CC-BY-SA.)
> 
> > I will try to play this through using the example of a "virtual" 
> > game:"Simcity OSM" and Mark questions with Qn:
> >
> > Let's say the game should use only street,river and rail-data and the 
> > task of the game would be to build up a new city based on the given 
> > osm-data.
> >
> > Workflow: 1) I build a converter that takes osm-data and produces the 
> > reduced data (filtering streets,rails,rivers and mapping to my own 
> > coordinate-system). Since this already is a derivate this data is 
> > under odbl again. There seems to be two options:
> >
> > a)provide the data as data-files
> >
> > b)provide the converter that produces the filtered data in 
> > readable-form (e.g. xml)
> >
> > Q1) Is that right understood? If choosing b) The game itself can use a 
> > proprietary version of that data?
> 
> Yes. It doesn't even have to be human-readable, like XML; ODbL says 
> "machine readable". Binary is fine as long as there is information on 
> how a machine can read it.
> 
> >
> > 2) The game reads the data as created by the converter, meaning that I 
> > have something like a "live-version" of my new odbl derivate. When I 
> > now build a house at coordinate x/y I would have changed the 
> > database-again, meaning this need to be provided somehow!?
> >
> > Q2) Creating this live "fantasy-data" still creates a derivate, right? 
> > So would a live-export-function be ok, sufficent or even not 
> > necessary? (Actually it sounds like a quite cool idea :D)
> >
> 
> I think you're right that the "live data", including "fantasy data" 
> created by the user, is a derivative database, assuming the new fantasy 
> items are placed in locations that are influenced by the locations of 
> OSM features. But it's not necessary to provide a way of accessing it, 
> if that player's data is not published to anyone else.
> 
> > Q3) If there would be this "live-data" option, would be providing the 
> > converter still be necessary?
> 
> I think you would have to provide either the converter or the derived 
> database, because you're publishing it to players; but you can't 
> reasonably require someone to sign up as a player just to get your 
> derivative database. You have to make it available to anyone who asks, 
> player or not.
> 
> If one player's data is published to other players, ie if it's a 
> multi-player game, then you would have to make that data available along 
> with your starting database.
> 
> >
> >
> > 3) Of course inside the game it is mentioned (in the credits!?) that 
> > the data is a derivate of osm.
> >
> 
> Yes, and make it clear that it's available under ODbL.
> 
> > Conclusion: To be honest, while writing this, I don't see a problem 
> > anymore, as there wouldn't be a problem for me to provide something 
> > like "live-views" of the data. But it would be nice to hear some 
> > comments if I'm right, about the way to handle the data!?
> >
> 
> Hope this helps. (I have some PHP programming that I'm avoiding, so it 
> was a welcome diversion to write this commentary.)
> 
> Jonathan.
> 
> 



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Best-Practise to use OSM data in games

[Jonathan Harley]

On 10/05/12 14:01, Frederik Ramm wrote:
I am re-posting this from 
http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/12656/best-practise-to-use-osm-data-in-games. 
The original author is "dertom95".


 ---

Is there really a way to use osm-data in games that comply the odbl?



My replies below relate only to ODbL.
(Under the current CC-BY-SA, the game itself would probably have to be 
distributed as CC-BY-SA.)


I will try to play this through using the example of a "virtual" 
game:"Simcity OSM" and Mark questions with Qn:


Let's say the game should use only street,river and rail-data and the 
task of the game would be to build up a new city based on the given 
osm-data.


Workflow: 1) I build a converter that takes osm-data and produces the 
reduced data (filtering streets,rails,rivers and mapping to my own 
coordinate-system). Since this already is a derivate this data is 
under odbl again. There seems to be two options:


a)provide the data as data-files

b)provide the converter that produces the filtered data in 
readable-form (e.g. xml)


Q1) Is that right understood? If choosing b) The game itself can use a 
proprietary version of that data?


Yes. It doesn't even have to be human-readable, like XML; ODbL says 
"machine readable". Binary is fine as long as there is information on 
how a machine can read it.




2) The game reads the data as created by the converter, meaning that I 
have something like a "live-version" of my new odbl derivate. When I 
now build a house at coordinate x/y I would have changed the 
database-again, meaning this need to be provided somehow!?


Q2) Creating this live "fantasy-data" still creates a derivate, right? 
So would a live-export-function be ok, sufficent or even not 
necessary? (Actually it sounds like a quite cool idea :D)




I think you're right that the "live data", including "fantasy data" 
created by the user, is a derivative database, assuming the new fantasy 
items are placed in locations that are influenced by the locations of 
OSM features. But it's not necessary to provide a way of accessing it, 
if that player's data is not published to anyone else.


Q3) If there would be this "live-data" option, would be providing the 
converter still be necessary?


I think you would have to provide either the converter or the derived 
database, because you're publishing it to players; but you can't 
reasonably require someone to sign up as a player just to get your 
derivative database. You have to make it available to anyone who asks, 
player or not.


If one player's data is published to other players, ie if it's a 
multi-player game, then you would have to make that data available along 
with your starting database.





3) Of course inside the game it is mentioned (in the credits!?) that 
the data is a derivate of osm.




Yes, and make it clear that it's available under ODbL.

Conclusion: To be honest, while writing this, I don't see a problem 
anymore, as there wouldn't be a problem for me to provide something 
like "live-views" of the data. But it would be nice to hear some 
comments if I'm right, about the way to handle the data!?




Hope this helps. (I have some PHP programming that I'm avoiding, so it 
was a welcome diversion to write this commentary.)


Jonathan.


--
Dr Jonathan Harley   :Managing Director:   SpiffyMap Ltd

m...@spiffymap.com  Phone: 0845 313 8457 www.spiffymap.com
The Venture Centre, Sir William Lyons Road, Coventry CV4 7EZ, UK


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[OSM-legal-talk] Best-Practise to use OSM data in games

[Frederik Ramm]

I am re-posting this from 
http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/12656/best-practise-to-use-osm-data-in-games. 
The original author is "dertom95".


 ---

Is there really a way to use osm-data in games that comply the odbl?

I will try to play this through using the example of a "virtual" 
game:"Simcity OSM" and Mark questions with Qn:


Let's say the game should use only street,river and rail-data and the 
task of the game would be to build up a new city based on the given 
osm-data.


Workflow: 1) I build a converter that takes osm-data and produces the 
reduced data (filtering streets,rails,rivers and mapping to my own 
coordinate-system). Since this already is a derivate this data is under 
odbl again. There seems to be two options:


a)provide the data as data-files

b)provide the converter that produces the filtered data in readable-form 
(e.g. xml)


Q1) Is that right understood? If choosing b) The game itself can use a 
proprietary version of that data?


2) The game reads the data as created by the converter, meaning that I 
have something like a "live-version" of my new odbl derivate. When I now 
build a house at coordinate x/y I would have changed the database-again, 
meaning this need to be provided somehow!?


Q2) Creating this live "fantasy-data" still creates a derivate, right? 
So would a live-export-function be ok, sufficent or even not necessary? 
(Actually it sounds like a quite cool idea :D)


Q3) If there would be this "live-data" option, would be providing the 
converter still be necessary?


3) Of course inside the game it is mentioned (in the credits!?) that the 
data is a derivate of osm.


Conclusion: To be honest, while writing this, I don't see a problem 
anymore, as there wouldn't be a problem for me to provide something like 
"live-views" of the data. But it would be nice to hear some comments if 
I'm right, about the way to handle the data!?


--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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[OSM-legal-talk] FW: NLSF & OSM license check / comments needed

[Pekka Sarkola]

Sorry,

 

I think I choose first wrong email list.

 

Pekka

 

 Pekka Sarkola - pekka.sark...@gispo.fi - www.gispo.fi 

 

From: Pekka Sarkola [mailto:pe...@gispo.fi] 
Sent: 10. toukokuuta 2012 13:15
To: 'legal-gene...@openstreetmap.org'
Subject: NLSF & OSM license check / comments needed

 

Dear Friends,

 

This legal-lists seem to be quite quiet. So, maybe you all have plenty of
time to discuss about National Land Survey of Finland (NLSF) license vs. OSM
licenses.

 

As you may know, NLSF has released all their topographic information for
free use. Their license is open, more open than OSM (CC-BY-SA or ODbL). I
think. You can read NLSF's license terms:
http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/NLS_open_data_licence_version1_20120501

 

It seems that quite OSMers in Finland like to benefit NLSF data sets. We
have good discussion going on about imports,  background map/imagery usage
etc. Mainly discussions will be in Finnish on IRC, forums and mailing lists.

 

Now we have also some legal questions and I'd like to hear your comments:

. Is NLSF Open Data license compatible with OSM current and new
license?

. If we import NLSF data, we need to add link to their license into
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en. Right?

. Contributors: we need to add NLSF to this page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution. Is there any "format" what
they should answer? Should this demand come from OSMF or can I do it?

. NLSF terms of use, section 2.2 last bullet: 
.remove the name of the Licensor from the product or service, if required to
do so by the Licensor..
Some people think that this is barrier and OSM license won't accept this.
Personally I don't see any problems with this. If we import NLSF data to OSM
(and we have mentions in wiki about their copyright etc.) and in the future
NLSF demands to remove their name, we can remove it from wiki pages. We
don't include NLSF name in every single copy (digital and/or analog) and we
don't clear NLSF names from OSM copies.

 

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask in the list or
directly. I also promise to act as contact person between OSM and NLSF,
there is already some confusion and I will make separate email about that.

 

Rgs,

 

Pekka

 

--

Pekka Sarkola

Gispo Oy

  pekka.sark...@gispo.fi   - GSM +358 40 725
2042

www.gispo.fi - www.paikkatieto.com 

 

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