[OSM-legal-talk] OSM data - Legal question about license agreement

[Mike Razis]

Hi,


My name is Mike and I have a legal question with regards to the usage of OSM 
data.


I'm an engineer who started a project with a few friends. Essentially, we're 
planning on creating scenes of various cities for fight simulators (and 
possible games later on).

We get data from various different sources to construct our scenes. From OSM, 
we use very little of the data, more specifically:

  *
BUILDINGS: We get the vector data for buildings, and we then model our own 
buildings partly based on this data.
 *
We essentially get the "way" information about the corners delimiting the 
building, so that we know where to place our buildings. In cases where the 
height information is available on OSM, sometimes we use it. But very often we 
invent our own (since the data is not available). We just make sure that it's 
somewhat realistic.
 *
We then apply our own textures to artistically draw and shade-in the sides of 
the buildings. We add random windows and doors (not based on anything from OSM).
 *
We also add our own buildings for locations where there are no OSM buildings 
found but we feel like we should add some more.
 *
We are definitely not re-packaging and selling the OSM data. What we do is 
really just use the information to generate our own scenes, and that's with a 
lot of modification and extrapolation, to make it looks artistically realistic.
  *
BRIDGES: We sometimes use OSM data in order to determine where there are 
bridges. Then we insert some generic models of 3D bridges that we've created 
into the scene at those locations.


We hope to one day sell our Scenes to be used by engines that make flight 
simulators. We wanted to make sure to cover our bases, and so we read the 
License Agreements, and we also got a lawyer to read it over. We know that we 
would have to credit OSM for the usage of the data, but the lawyer is asking us 
a lot of questions such as:

  *
Do we generate a "Derivative Database" or a "Collective Database"?
  *
Can we really sell this "Produced Work"? Do we have to make our "Produced Work" 
available for free?
 *
Our lawyer seems to think that perhaps we have to offer our "Produced Work" for 
free. He mentions that we are allowed to create works from the database as long 
as "Share-Alike" and "Keep open". We think that perhaps he's misinterpreting 
what it means, because it seems like there are many companies out there doing 
exactly what we plan on doing, and they sell the end-products for money.


This seems like a fairly straightforward use-case for us, but being engineers, 
we're having trouble with the legal lingo. And the lawyer we're dealing with 
seems to not understand technology...


We know there are several other companies out there that do almost exactly what 
we do. For example, the Polish company "Drzewiecki Design" creates scenes (such 
as New York) for the X-Plane simulator company. They use some OSM data to 
generate their scenes (which they sell to users who want to fly in those 
cities), and they credit you on their website. (example: 
http://store.x-plane.org/New-York-City-XP-_p_431.html).

Another example of a game that uses OSM data and sells their end-product would 
be "Monopoly City Streets" by Hasbro.


Can we assume that's all we would have to do is clearly credit OSM? Can you 
please confirm that what I described does not consist of a "Derived Database"? 
Or at least that we would not have to make available a free version of our 
"Produced Work"? (We only in part use OSM data, and then we render the rest 
based on our own assumptions and artistic creativity)


Thanks ahead of time!

Mike
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] wikidata cc0 <> odbl

[Jo]

For the sake of the argument, let's add that I may intend to make the
workflow easier by creating a JOSM plugin (or extending the wikipedia
plugin with the wikidata Toolki WDTK). So it may become substantial or
probably would be after enough time passes. So it's important to know what
is and what isn't acceptable. Direct transfer of names and translations in
either direction definitely isn't. That is clear. When comparing them and
noticing a difference another source is needed to fix one or the other.

I guess using JOSM to calculate the center of a point cloud (of
way/relation nodes' coordinates) is derived?

It's probably best to limit it to version 1 objects one adds oneself.

The other question is, whether backreferencing from Wikidata is a good
idea. Or whether it changes anything to the licensing issues?

Polyglot

2017-12-03 14:10 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole :

> Well IMHO none of this is relevant, as we do not claim any rights in
> individual elements in our database.
>
> As a result every single operation for itself is completely OK. The issues
> start when you (and I include any method of work splitting in that) do any
> of them systematically in a way that is no longer insubstantial.
>
> Any data you directly created yourself remains yours naturally and while
> there is a bit of fuzziness around the question of what applies to the copy
> in the OSM database itself, you can do with that what you want (assuming
> you weren't creating something that depended on already existing OSM data).
>
> IANAL
>
> Simon
>
> Am 03.12.2017 um 13:48 schrieb Jo:
>
> Time to open up a whole new fresh can of worms
>
> Call me werid, but I like the idea of cooperation between opendata
> projects, but differences in licensing don't make this exactly easy.
>
> So here goes.
>
> Let's start with a node.
>
> a)
> I add a node (say for a school) to OSM. Since it's coming from an import
> (or I surveyed it myself) I have more details and I'd like to add those
> details to wikidata as well.
>
> I look at the imagery and find the school grounds and place a node
> somewhere in the middle. So I'm the one who determined the coordinates. If
> I want to share them to wikidata that should be fine. In the reference
> field of wikidata I create a source reference "reference url" and set it to
> the url Ctrl-Shift-I sends me to www.openstreetmap.org/node/12345678
>
> b)
> Next case I draw a polygon around the school grounds and have JOSM
> determine the center point for the coordinates. This time I use
> www.openstreetmap.org/wat/12345678 as the reference url.
> Again, I'm the one who determined the coordinates at the time of creation
> of the object on OSM.
>
> c)
> I find a street on OSM and want to add/update its position to/on wikidata.
> I take the 2 end points and determine the center. This time I reference
> back to the way on OSM, or if the way was splt, to the way segment nearest
> to the center point. There is nothing there at this point in OSM, usually
> the coordinates also don't correspond to any OSM object. I was not the
> creator of this street or its end nodes. odbl states I need to state the
> source, that was done using the refernce url pointing back to
> openstreetmap.org. Is this enough?
>
> d)
> 2 streets join on a node. wikidata has a property "connects with". I'd
> like to use the url fo the node as the source for the connection between
> these 2 roads. This time it's not about the coordinates, but about the fact
> one can get from one of those roads to another using that node. Is that OK
> to do, or should I find anoher source for this 'knowledge'.
>
> e)
> wikidata also has properties "coordinate of northernmost point"
> (easternmost, southernmost, westernmost). Can those be sourced to OSM
> (nodes)?
>
> Polyglot
>
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] wikidata cc0 <> odbl

[Simon Poole]

Well IMHO none of this is relevant, as we do not claim any rights in
individual elements in our database.

As a result every single operation for itself is completely OK. The
issues start when you (and I include any method of work splitting in
that) do any of them systematically in a way that is no longer
insubstantial.

Any data you directly created yourself remains yours naturally and while
there is a bit of fuzziness around the question of what applies to the
copy in the OSM database itself, you can do with that what you want
(assuming you weren't creating something that depended on already
existing OSM data).

IANAL

Simon


Am 03.12.2017 um 13:48 schrieb Jo:
> Time to open up a whole new fresh can of worms
>
> Call me werid, but I like the idea of cooperation between opendata
> projects, but differences in licensing don't make this exactly easy.
>
> So here goes.
>
> Let's start with a node.
>
> a)
> I add a node (say for a school) to OSM. Since it's coming from an
> import (or I surveyed it myself) I have more details and I'd like to
> add those details to wikidata as well.
>
> I look at the imagery and find the school grounds and place a node
> somewhere in the middle. So I'm the one who determined the
> coordinates. If I want to share them to wikidata that should be fine.
> In the reference field of wikidata I create a source reference
> "reference url" and set it to the url Ctrl-Shift-I sends me to
> www.openstreetmap.org/node/12345678
> 
>
> b)
> Next case I draw a polygon around the school grounds and have JOSM
> determine the center point for the coordinates. This time I use
> www.openstreetmap.org/wat/12345678
>  as the reference url.
> Again, I'm the one who determined the coordinates at the time of
> creation of the object on OSM.
>
> c)
> I find a street on OSM and want to add/update its position to/on
> wikidata. I take the 2 end points and determine the center. This time
> I reference back to the way on OSM, or if the way was splt, to the way
> segment nearest to the center point. There is nothing there at this
> point in OSM, usually the coordinates also don't correspond to any OSM
> object. I was not the creator of this street or its end nodes. odbl
> states I need to state the source, that was done using the refernce
> url pointing back to openstreetmap.org . Is
> this enough?
>
> d)
> 2 streets join on a node. wikidata has a property "connects with". I'd
> like to use the url fo the node as the source for the connection
> between these 2 roads. This time it's not about the coordinates, but
> about the fact one can get from one of those roads to another using
> that node. Is that OK to do, or should I find anoher source for this
> 'knowledge'.
>
> e)
> wikidata also has properties "coordinate of northernmost point"
> (easternmost, southernmost, westernmost). Can those be sourced to OSM
> (nodes)?
>
> Polyglot
>
>
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[OSM-legal-talk] wikidata cc0 <> odbl

[Jo]

Time to open up a whole new fresh can of worms

Call me werid, but I like the idea of cooperation between opendata
projects, but differences in licensing don't make this exactly easy.

So here goes.

Let's start with a node.

a)
I add a node (say for a school) to OSM. Since it's coming from an import
(or I surveyed it myself) I have more details and I'd like to add those
details to wikidata as well.

I look at the imagery and find the school grounds and place a node
somewhere in the middle. So I'm the one who determined the coordinates. If
I want to share them to wikidata that should be fine. In the reference
field of wikidata I create a source reference "reference url" and set it to
the url Ctrl-Shift-I sends me to www.openstreetmap.org/node/12345678

b)
Next case I draw a polygon around the school grounds and have JOSM
determine the center point for the coordinates. This time I use
www.openstreetmap.org/wat/12345678 as the reference url.
Again, I'm the one who determined the coordinates at the time of creation
of the object on OSM.

c)
I find a street on OSM and want to add/update its position to/on wikidata.
I take the 2 end points and determine the center. This time I reference
back to the way on OSM, or if the way was splt, to the way segment nearest
to the center point. There is nothing there at this point in OSM, usually
the coordinates also don't correspond to any OSM object. I was not the
creator of this street or its end nodes. odbl states I need to state the
source, that was done using the refernce url pointing back to
openstreetmap.org. Is this enough?

d)
2 streets join on a node. wikidata has a property "connects with". I'd like
to use the url fo the node as the source for the connection between these 2
roads. This time it's not about the coordinates, but about the fact one can
get from one of those roads to another using that node. Is that OK to do,
or should I find anoher source for this 'knowledge'.

e)
wikidata also has properties "coordinate of northernmost point"
(easternmost, southernmost, westernmost). Can those be sourced to OSM
(nodes)?

Polyglot
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