Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Kathleen Lu via legal-talk 
No, ODbL does not apply to any database that does not include OSM data.
There are two reasons.

First, this example is analogous to the FAQ here:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#Can_I_use_OSM_data_and_OpenStreetMap-derived_maps_to_verify_my_own_data_without_triggering_share-alike.3F
Can I use OSM data and OpenStreetMap-derived maps to verify my own data
without triggering share-alike?

Yes, provided that you are only comparing and do not copy any OpenStreetMap
data. If you make any changes to your data after making the comparison, you
should be able to reasonably demonstrate that any such change was made
either from your own physical observation or comes from a non-OpenStreetMap
source accessed directly by you. I.e you can compare but not take!

   - Example 1: You notice that a street is called one name on your map and
   another in OpenStreetMap. You should visit the street and check the name,
   then you are free to put that name in your data as it is your own
   observation.


   - Example 2: You notice that a boundary is different in your data and
   OpenStreetMap. You should check back to original authoritative sources and
   make any correction required.


When someone does example #1 above, they compare OSM data and nonOSM data
and make a list of streets to check in the real world. Neither the nonOSM
data nor the list of streets needs to be licensed under ODbL. You may
*compare* freely.
If I understand your usecase correctly, Matthais, you are essentially
checking your list against OSM boundaries. If something is both on your
list and within the OSM boundary, then you say 'yes, this goes on the
secondary list.' Then you want to publish your secondary list. There is no
OSM data in the secondary list so it is not a Derivative Database.

Second, see the Geocoding Guidelines, which Martin also pointed out -
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Community_Guidelines/Geocoding_-_Guideline#The_Guideline
Your example is akin to using OSM polygons for certain areas to geocode.
You already have the lat/long for your points (houses and flats), so what
you are getting from OSM is equivalent to the name of the area you are
filtering against (e.g., all these points are in neighborhood X).
The Geocoding Guidelines specifically state "if only names are provided in
Geocoding Results from OSM -- in particular, latitude/longitude information
from OSM is not included in the Geocoding Results -- *a collection of such
results is not a substantial extract*."
Thus, no ODbL obligations attach.

-Kathleen






On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 11:55 AM Nuno Caldeira 
wrote:

> does contain derivate however,which means license applies
>
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 19:46 ,  wrote:
>
>> > we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than
>> is lock under their TOS.
>>
>> I want to apologize for my misunderstanding: my final product does not
>> contain any OpenStreetMap data.
>>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Nuno Caldeira 
does contain derivate however,which means license applies

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 19:46 ,  wrote:

> > we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than
> is lock under their TOS.
>
> I want to apologize for my misunderstanding: my final product does not
> contain any OpenStreetMap data.
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread matthias . straetling 
Let me get into detail is this project to proof that this case isn't constructed.

 

We've purchased geodata with real estate prices (houses & flats) for Germany's federal state "Northrhine Westfalia". Each row has coordinates in WGS84. The TOS of the purchhased dataset state, that it's not allowed to relicense the pricing data or the coordinates under another license. So we can't go ODbL here.

 

We want to extract postcode areas (more than 100 nodes) from the OSM database and merge them into sensefull peaces, like market regions. Of course, we can release those new areas, since they're clearly ODbL.

 

Using this market regions, we would like to calculate the average housing and flat prices and display them on a map. We also would like to display the exact position on a new layer (not mixed with OSM data).

 

I've seen plenty of websites displaying such prices, especially newspapers. All were based on Mapbox or Carto.

 




Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. Dezember 2019 um 20:31 Uhr
Von: "Simon Poole" 
An: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data


Yes, if a Derivative Database was created in the first place, and that is not clear at all, see:

“Derivative Database” – Means a database based upon the Database, and
includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any
other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the
Contents. This includes, but is not limited to, Extracting or
Re-utilising the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents in a new
Database.

Essentially the question is if the envelopes of the extracted points are a substantial extract of our data (because they represent the residual information/data from OSM), while it is obviously possible to construct cases were this would be the case, in the typical relatively sparse POI scenario I don't quite see that.

 

I don't particularly like engaging in these discussion because they tend to end up being arguments about how many angels can stand on a pin and are not answerable outside of the detailed specifics of the actual use case (which are typically not available).

 

Simon

 

Am 12.12.2019 um 20:05 schrieb Nuno Caldeira:


https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/index.html

the license is quite clear and 4.2 applies to the case you mention. any use of OSM data (over 100 nodes) combined with proprietary data results in more open data under ODbL. 

we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than is lock under their TOS. 

 


On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 18:53 ,  wrote:

> From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from surveys,
> you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source (most likely open data)
> which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the history and changeset
> source tags / object source tags).

But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to use it to
select points of my dataset.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread matthias . straetling 
> we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than is 
> lock under their TOS.  

I want to apologize for my misunderstanding: my final product does not contain 
any OpenStreetMap data.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Simon Poole 
Yes, if a Derivative Database was created in the first place, and that
is not clear at all, see:

/“Derivative Database” – Means a database based upon the Database, and//
//includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any//
//other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the//
//Contents. This includes, but is not limited to, Extracting or//
//Re-utilising the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents in a new//
//Database./

Essentially the question is if the envelopes of the extracted points are
a substantial extract of our data (because they represent the residual
information/data from OSM), while it is obviously possible to construct
cases were this would be the case, in the typical relatively sparse POI
scenario I don't quite see that.

I don't particularly like engaging in these discussion because they tend
to end up being arguments about how many angels can stand on a pin and
are not answerable outside of the detailed specifics of the actual use
case (which are typically not available).

Simon

Am 12.12.2019 um 20:05 schrieb Nuno Caldeira:
> https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/index.html
> the license is quite clear and 4.2 applies to the case you mention.
> any use of OSM data (over 100 nodes) combined with proprietary data
> results in more open data under ODbL. 
> we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data
> than is lock under their TOS. 
>
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 18:53 ,  > wrote:
>
> > From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely
> originate from surveys,
> > you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source
> (most likely open data)
> > which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the
> history and changeset
> > source tags / object source tags).
>
> But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just
> want to use it to
> select points of my dataset.
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
Am Do., 12. Dez. 2019 um 19:53 Uhr schrieb <
matthias.straetl...@buerotiger.de>:

> But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to
> use it to
> select points of my dataset.



then it may eventually fall under the geocoding guideline:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Community_Guidelines/Geocoding_-_Guideline

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Nuno Caldeira 
https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/index.html
the license is quite clear and 4.2 applies to the case you mention. any use
of OSM data (over 100 nodes) combined with proprietary data results in more
open data under ODbL.
we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than is
lock under their TOS.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 18:53 ,  wrote:

> > From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from
> surveys,
> > you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source (most
> likely open data)
> > which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the history and
> changeset
> > source tags / object source tags).
>
> But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to
> use it to
> select points of my dataset.
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread matthias . straetling 
> From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from 
> surveys,
> you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source (most likely 
> open data)
> which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the history and 
> changeset
> source tags / object source tags).

But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to use 
it to
select points of my dataset.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread matthias . straetling 
Hi,

> when you write „number of boundaries“, you intend „boundary points“?

No, for example postcodes. I want to merge some of them to new polygons.

Regards,
Matthias

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread matthias . straetling 
Hi,

> In my NAL opinion, the result will be derived from OSM data and
> therefore inherits the ODbL license. This does, however, not mean that
> you have to publish it; but *if* you publish (or "publilcy use") it,
> then it has to be available under ODbL. If you just use it internally
> then it is still ODbL but that doesn't matter to you.

Oh wait. I don't want to publish the modified OpenStreetMap data.
I want to publish the proprietary dataset, which I've selected using the 
OpenStreetMap data.
For example, I want to select the non-free points using postcode polygons, 
derived from OpenStreetMap.

Regards,
Matthias

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
Am Do., 12. Dez. 2019 um 08:01 Uhr schrieb <
matthias.straetl...@buerotiger.de>:

> I want to use polygons (district boundaries) from OSM dataset to select
> points for a proprietary dataset.



>From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from
surveys, you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source
(most likely open data) which may have a more liberal license than ODbL
(check the history and changeset source tags / object source tags).

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

2019-12-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 12. Dec 2019, at 08:19, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> As an exception to the above, if the number of boundaries you use is
> less than 100 - an crucially this could be after the trivial alterations
> you mention - then the extract you are making is considered not to be
> substantial (see
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Community_Guidelines/Substantial_-_Guideline)
> and therefore does not have to be under ODbL.


when you write „number of boundaries“, you intend „boundary points“?

Cheers Martin 
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