(Frederik's came in while I was drafting this.) What was the reason for you wanting to put that warning there? Do you know of actual problems that a warning like that would have prevented, or was it (as your email suggests) "Looks like others have done this; we should to" ?
With all due respect (if this reads fiercely, it's against the idea, not you) I would say the warning is unnecessary, paternalistic, and dangerous for OSM. Unnecessary: anyone in a country that makes it illegal to map military sites knows about it (or ought to know). eg, when visiting Syria I only had to reach for my camera within half a mile of a military base (some of which were "invisible", ha ha, as intelligence buildings) and my companions clamped my hands to my waist for safety. Also there's no need to remind each other to obey the law: the essence of the law is that it is to be obeyed - including laws on trespass, so I disagree with Frederik on that. Paternalistic: if, on the other hand, if someone has taken a conscious decision to map a military base in breach of their local laws, that is a decision for them, not for OSM. As Mateusz says, many countries have laws that (I would say sitting in the UK) go against the spirit of openness on which OSM is founded, and we shouldn't chill ourselves to the coldest setting out there. Dangerous: I think there's a risk that by saying, "please follow local laws" (rather than saying nothing), we open ourselves to accusations of not policing "our" mappers properly. You can imagine the military attaché of some country emailing OSMF to say, "That request is very weak. I think you should toughen it up. In fact, here is a list of mappers whose edits I want you to revert because, ***by your own policy***, they should not have made them in breach of our laws". A warning along the lines of "Mapping military sites is sometimes illegal under laws of that country" would be ok, but I would much prefer not even to do that. I haven't been on the lists long, but I don't recall anyone saying "I've just been interrogated for mapping this base without realising that was illegal - please don't do it!" On my information there's no problem to solve - just worries about "what ifs" - and so we should say nothing. On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 07:48, Mateusz Konieczny via legal-talk < legal-talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > I am strongly against anything that would imply that not following Chinese > law > is violating OSM rules. It is not, also for people under Chinese > juridistriction > > Though making people aware about such laws seems OK to me, > as long it is not done in way that suggests that OSM enforces or supports > this laws. > > Obviously, if such laws would be enacted in UK then OSMF would be legally > obligated to follow it - but we do not need to enforce Chinese or Russian > laws. > > I would propose to note that > > - mapping military installations may be dangerous, also for legal reasons > - mapping military installations is not against OSM rules > > Dec 22, 2020, 01:50 by graemefi...@gmail.com: > > Hi > > I have recently raised a proposal for mapping military bases > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Military_bases, & I > included a "warning" (*As always, if it is illegal in your country to map > military establishments, please do not do so)*, similar to warnings, & > discussions, that I have noticed on other military pages eg > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:military, > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:military#.22please.2C_please_do_not_mark_military_areas.22.3F > & > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dmilitary. > > My inclusion of this warning on my proposal has created some argument that > we shouldn't include such warnings, as while it may be illegal for > residents of any particular country to map military areas, it isn't illegal > for them to be added to OSM eg > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Military_bases#Remove_claim_that_not_respecting_mapping_ban_is_against_OSM_rules > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-December/057105.html > & following posts > > My claim is not that it is not illegal - but that it is not against OSM > rules. > > --------------------------------- > > For reference, China makes illegal to map China without special permission > ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China > ), > > India censors media with borders they dislike > > https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/map-of-kashmir-lands-economist-in-censor-trouble/story-0Dk3GPzysf2UhtI69cTS3K.html > > --------------------------------- > > But, as far as I know, violating this laws is not against any OSM rules, > also for people > within jurisdiction of this countries. > > What is not changed is that government may use their powers to punish > someone > for such cases of breaking law. > > --------------------------------- > > > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use#III._Unlawful_and_other_unauthorized_uses > is not listing compliance with local laws as one of forbidden activities > (in theory such laws > could be formulated in way that falls under first case, but AFAIK none of > them defines > such restrictions in terms of copyright or copyright like restrictions). > > There is "You are solely responsible for your compliance with all > applicable laws, regulations, > and third party agreements in your use of the Services." - I am not a > lawyer but it seems to > not imply that violating local law violates OSM rules. > > See also > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf > where OSMF refused to follow laws of specific countries/territories - > ("we cannot delete base data to suit a particular legal jurisdiction") > > openstreetmap.org displays line of control as boundary between Pakistan > and India, > no matter whatever India and Pakistan likes it or not and whatever they > made such > laws illegal in their country or not. > > OSM is not using GCJ-02 distortion in China, OSM map is displaying North > Korean > concentration camps > ( > https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.833486&mlon=129.725597&zoom=16#map=16/41.8335/129.7256 > ) > and so on. > _______________________________________________ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 at 09:06, Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I notice that you might have been expecting to email the legal working > group but ended up on a public mailing list. But why not, it's a matter > that deserves some attention. > > However I fail to see what the argument is about. You said that you > included a warning > > > As always, if it is illegal in your country to > > map military establishments, please do not do so > > which more or less equates to "please don't put yourself in danger while > mapping". There's nothing to be said against that. Now someone seems to > have misconstrued your wording as "it is against OSM's rules to map > stuff that is illegal to map in your country", which is (a) not correct > but crucially also (b) not what you said. > > > It was suggested that I approach you to get a definitive ruling of > > whether or not a warning should be included in these pages? > > I'm not in a position to give you a definitive ruling but I think your > warning is perfectly ok. I would even make it more explicit and explain > that even if something is visible on Bing it might *still* be illegal to > put it on the map. > > Just like we remind people not to trespass for mapping. Adding something > to OSM that has been surveyed while trespassing is not against OSM's > rules but we do ask people not to trespass. > > If push came to shove, such warnings could even prove that we do not > actively encourage people to do illegal things. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > _______________________________________________ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk >
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