Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

> Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Dezember 2019 um 01:00 Uhr
> Von: "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
>
> it will contain a lot of postcode information from the original OpenStreetMap 
> database,
> in adapted/translated form. Whether the amount is sufficient to be considered 
> substantial
> will have to be evaluated based on the actual db that is created/the actual 
> numbers.
> To create an accurate postcode polygon from point features you will need a 
> lot of them,
> so probably already a handful of them would be considered substantial.

There are 5,650,789,072 nodes in OSM database. But the EU database directive 
wants to
protect the investment (in money). If it was damn hard to collect the nodes 
belonging
to the postcodes, only a few thousand nodes might be more substantial.

I think, that's a moralistic point of view. I'll neither collect a substantial 
part
of the whole OSM database, nor you could proof that there was big investment 
made to
collect the data. Since the users are working for free, the only investment are 
the
servers.

Like I said, that's a moralistic point of view.

I've got an offer today to get the data for about 3,500 Euro. This allows me to 
select
the data and even publish the postal code and the merged postal geometries with 
attribution.
It's another non-free dataset, but it solves my problem.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

> Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2019 um 17:03 Uhr
> Von: "Tom Lee via legal-talk" 
> 
> This is an admirable impulse, but it is worth emphasizing that those of
> us who participate on OSM listservs are a small and unrepresentative
> fraction of the project's 5.9 million registered users. Lists like this
> one are a great way to find the slice of users who are most interested
> and passionate about a particular issue, and who consequently can be
> expected to have well-informed (and often strongly held) opinions that
> reflect the gamut of possible answers.

I understand this, but the girls and guys here do already have some
knowledge about this topic. I know many OSM mappers, which would never
be able to discuss about this license questions. And many don't even
use a GIS to be able to intersect two different data sources :-)
  
> But if you are seeking consensus, the closest thing available is the
> text of the license itself and guidelines that have been approved by
> elected members of the OSMF board. Usually when there is broad agreement
> on an issue, the answer is memorialized in a wiki page that people find
> before they wind up here :-)_

Why doesn't the OSMF write about fundamental stuff then? I think,
ST_Intersects() is one of the main tools in GIS world. Why don't
give a clear statement on this?

Since the ODbL has never changed, it's fixed. So there could be
something like an FAQ or matrix to look up what triggers share-alike
and what not?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] distance calculations

[matthias . straetling]

> Von: "Nuno Caldeira" 
> it's a derivated, therefore share alike. I'm glad they trusted OSM data. 

So the distance calculations are derivated, of course.
But what about their points of interests? They've interacted with the roads.

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[OSM-legal-talk] distance calculations

[matthias . straetling]

Dear IANALs,

I'm sorry to ask an additional question.

A while ago, I've listened to a talk about navigation of pupils from their home 
to the school - it was used to decide whether the pupil gets a free bus ticket 
or not.

The distance calculation was done by a land registry office, which didn't have 
a route-able road & path network, but had trust in the OSM data, since they 
inspected it for quite a while. For completeness, they've used their own 
housing and school locations, but didn't use any from OSM.

They routed from the pupil's house to the school on the OSM network. Of course, 
the results were released in public.
Do such distance calculations also trigger share-alike on the non-free data 
(here: schools & houses).

Regards,
Matthias


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Christoph.

> Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2019 um 12:03 Uhr
> Von: "Christoph Hormann" 
>
> This is definitely a better approach than trying to find loopholes in
> the license with brute force and wishful thinking.  Even if that is
> possible and you can present an interpretation of the wording of the
> ODbL that supports your use case without share-alike this was clearly
> not the intention of the OSM community when adopting the ODbL to do so.

It never was my intention to brute force a hole. I just thought, OSM data can 
be used, as long I don't mix anything or fill my missing data. I thought, 
proper attribution like "selected by using OSM data ..." would be fine for your.

> > I didn't expected OpenStreetMap to be such non-free and permissive
> > :-(
>
> The usual view is that share-alike provisions do not make something
> non-free or non-open because they are meant to protect and extend the
> freedom and only constrain users of truly non-free data.  But anyone
> can have a different opinion on that of course.

Sorry to say this, but I don't feel like you want to protect your data. It 
feels like you want to grab all the data, your data comes into contact with. 
"Viral" is the right term here - do you know the Borg? :-)

> Both share-alike and attribution play an important role in OSM in the
> social contract between mappers and data users.  In return for being
> able to use the results of the work of the mappers for free, data users
> are required to share improvements of the data or the results of
> producing something of additional value in combination with other data
> under open license terms.

If attribution would pay a role, than "(c) Non-Free data, selected by using OSM 
data ..." would be possible.
That might be an idea for future license drafts.

Regards,
Matthias

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Simon,

> Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2019 um 13:33 Uhr
> Von: "Simon Poole" 
>
> Just to be clear: you asked a question on an unmoderated, publicly
> accessible mailing list on which everybody can voice their opinions
> however unfounded they are or not, and now you are unhappy with that you
> got a cacophony of conflicting opinions, which is exactly what you
> should have expected.

I was aware of this and just wanted to get a consensus by the data creators: 
the users.
Looking at the opinion of the mass it shows me, that my approach of using OSM 
as a source of selecting the data doesn't seem to be fine. More of you are 
saying "share-alike", so I have to deal with this.

Like I sad before:
I would have been fine at attributing OpenStreetMap as selection. Now, I 
neither can use OSM data, nor add my dataset to yours.
A lose-lose-situation :-(

> The official guidance on geo-coding from the OSMF can be found here
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Community_Guidelines/Geocoding_-_Guideline

I think that is what Kathleen tried to explain, but got confused by others.
I'm sad that paying a lawyer is more expensive than paying for other datasets 
:-)

Regards,
Matthias

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

I don't care about the money it costs, I even would pay for OpenStreetMap. I just wanted to use OSM, since the data quality is pretty high in the area I need it.

 

In a future license it would be better to allow attributions like "Data: (c) Non-Free, selected using (c) OpenStreetMap under ODbL...".

Now, I neither can use your data, nor add my dataset to yours. A lose-lose-situation :-(

 

Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2019 um 10:34 Uhr
Von: "Nuno Caldeira" 
An: "Licensing and other legal discussions." 
Betreff: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data






that's unfair, it is free, you don't have to pay for it. it just has a license, or else map companies would use our data 
 






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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

> Von: "Christoph Hormann" 
>
> The idea that your process of intersecting non-OSM data with OSM based
> admin polygons results in a collective database is not realistic.  To
> me this kind of operation would be a textbook example of something
> generating a derivative database - you combine OSM data with non-OSM
> data to generate something of additional value compared to either of
> these data sets alone.  This is exactly the kind of scenario
> share-alike is meant for and why it was chosen as license for OSM.  But
> there are of course fairly strong economic interests for this not being
> subject to share-alike so people think of ways to interpret the ODbL
> accordingly.

Okay, I'll canceld all plans to use OpenStreetMap for this task.
I've contacted several commercial data providers and hope to get offers 
tomorrow.

I didn't expected OpenStreetMap to be such non-free and permissive :-(

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

>
> existing OSMF community guidelines suggest spatial operations like
> ST_Difference() and ST_Intersection() yield Derivative Databases that
> are subject to share-alike.

Let's take the Collective Database Guideline, you've mentioned:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Community_Guidelines/Collective_Database_Guideline_Guideline

"Technically a reference between non-OSM and OSM data can be by a database key 
or any other method of identifying a specific OSM or non-OSM element that may 
be used with a database join."

So actually, I just need to create a collective database, put the non-free data 
in one table and OSM data in another.
For table joining, I'm using ST_Intersects() and I'm fine?

Confusing.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Hi Mateusz,

>> No, ODbL does not apply to any database that does not include OSM data.
> It is true but misleading to mention here as this database contains 
> transformed OSM data.
 
So if I don't merge the postcodes, it's fine?

>> There is no OSM data in the secondary list so it is not a Derivative 
>> Database.
> This is blatantly untrue. There is OSM data there, only transformed.

So as soon I'm selecting any data using OSM polygons, it gets transformed OSM 
data?
They're not even touching on the same layer, since it's a different feature 
type.

Regards,
Matthias


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Hi Lars-Daniel, yeah, same here.

 

I've read you tried to do similar work in the past. I think, you've merged postcodes with OSM data in a seperate column and didn't need to attribute it as share-alike.



 

What did you end up with?

 


Gesendet: Freitag, 13. Dezember 2019 um 19:25 Uhr
Von: "Lars-Daniel Weber" 
An: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data



Please stop constructing such cases. This case clearly would have the intention of reproducing the OSM database.

My intention is the trivial use of OpenStreetMap. A normal process in the GIS world.






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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Let me get into detail is this project to proof that this case isn't constructed.

 

We've purchased geodata with real estate prices (houses & flats) for Germany's federal state "Northrhine Westfalia". Each row has coordinates in WGS84. The TOS of the purchhased dataset state, that it's not allowed to relicense the pricing data or the coordinates under another license. So we can't go ODbL here.

 

We want to extract postcode areas (more than 100 nodes) from the OSM database and merge them into sensefull peaces, like market regions. Of course, we can release those new areas, since they're clearly ODbL.

 

Using this market regions, we would like to calculate the average housing and flat prices and display them on a map. We also would like to display the exact position on a new layer (not mixed with OSM data).

 

I've seen plenty of websites displaying such prices, especially newspapers. All were based on Mapbox or Carto.

 




Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. Dezember 2019 um 20:31 Uhr
Von: "Simon Poole" 
An: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data


Yes, if a Derivative Database was created in the first place, and that is not clear at all, see:

“Derivative Database” – Means a database based upon the Database, and
includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any
other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the
Contents. This includes, but is not limited to, Extracting or
Re-utilising the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents in a new
Database.

Essentially the question is if the envelopes of the extracted points are a substantial extract of our data (because they represent the residual information/data from OSM), while it is obviously possible to construct cases were this would be the case, in the typical relatively sparse POI scenario I don't quite see that.

 

I don't particularly like engaging in these discussion because they tend to end up being arguments about how many angels can stand on a pin and are not answerable outside of the detailed specifics of the actual use case (which are typically not available).

 

Simon

 

Am 12.12.2019 um 20:05 schrieb Nuno Caldeira:


https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/index.html

the license is quite clear and 4.2 applies to the case you mention. any use of OSM data (over 100 nodes) combined with proprietary data results in more open data under ODbL. 

we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than is lock under their TOS. 

 


On Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 18:53 ,  wrote:

> From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from surveys,
> you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source (most likely open data)
> which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the history and changeset
> source tags / object source tags).

But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to use it to
select points of my dataset.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

> we are here to create more open data, not to feed proprietary data than is 
> lock under their TOS.  

I want to apologize for my misunderstanding: my final product does not contain 
any OpenStreetMap data.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

> From a practical point of view, boundaries in OSM rarely originate from 
> surveys,
> you might be lucky to be able to identify the original source (most likely 
> open data)
> which may have a more liberal license than ODbL (check the history and 
> changeset
> source tags / object source tags).

But I neither want to merge OSM data or add it to my data. I just want to use 
it to
select points of my dataset.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Hi,

> when you write „number of boundaries“, you intend „boundary points“?

No, for example postcodes. I want to merge some of them to new polygons.

Regards,
Matthias

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Hi,

> In my NAL opinion, the result will be derived from OSM data and
> therefore inherits the ODbL license. This does, however, not mean that
> you have to publish it; but *if* you publish (or "publilcy use") it,
> then it has to be available under ODbL. If you just use it internally
> then it is still ODbL but that doesn't matter to you.

Oh wait. I don't want to publish the modified OpenStreetMap data.
I want to publish the proprietary dataset, which I've selected using the 
OpenStreetMap data.
For example, I want to select the non-free points using postcode polygons, 
derived from OpenStreetMap.

Regards,
Matthias

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[OSM-legal-talk] use OSM data to select proprietary data

[matthias . straetling]

Dear IANALs,

I want to use polygons (district boundaries) from OSM dataset to select points 
for a proprietary dataset.
The OSM dataset might be altered trivially (f.e. boundaries might be merged 
where needed).
The proprietary data isn't allowed to be used freely and is incompatible with 
ODBL.

The result of the intersections is a geodatabase, which doesn't contain any OSM 
data.

Is there some kind of share-alike? Does the resulting dataset need attribution 
like "selected with OSM data"?

Regards,
Matthias

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