Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On 09/16/2010 02:19 AM, Dave F. wrote: On 16/09/2010 01:12, John Smith wrote: This happens all the time, new CDs are released of out of copyright music that copy is then re-protected. Would that protection only apply to the physical characteristics of the CD, such as printed inlay sleeves? Sometimes, although the copyright notice will carefully never say this. A copyright might be claimed on the collection, or (in jurisdictions with low originality thresholds) on the clean-up or re-mix of the old recordings. Does the music not remain in the public domain? The original, individual, unmodified pieces of music remain in the public domain. (IANAL, TINLA.) - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On 09/16/2010 01:07 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: The question is, how much do I have to do with that file before I can legally (or, if someone fancies going into that, morally) claim a copyright. What if I convert line endings or use an automated process to convert from one character set to another - does that give rise to copyright? Or is it too trivial an action? That should be too trivial IMO, although the standard of originality is getting ridiculously low in some jurisdictions. What if the action I do on the file is highly complex (such as converting from a shape file to OSM format or compiling from C source code to binary), but the action is done by a program where my only input is pressing a button and naming a file? If you've created something original that might qualify, although it might only qualify for a lesser computer generated copyright in the UK (for example). Does copyright then lie with the author of the complex program, No. Copyright goes to the person who presses the button. Unless there is a copyright on the original work that the program is transforming, in which case the new work is a derivative and in the absence of a licence is an infringing work under the original author's copyright. (The only reason this wouldn't be the case would be if there was no copyright on the original work and the program combined a piece of copyrighted work by the program's author with the output, e.g. a code table or style sheet. This would then make the output a derivative of the program author's work, but it would still *not* be just because it has been produced by the program.) or is actually pushing the button on the software in this case non-trivial enough to warrant copyright? It's not pushing the button, it's producing the original new work however you might do it. No other human being has intervened between you pressing the button and the output, so if there is a copyright, it's yours. (IANAL, TINLA.) - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
Dave Hanson relicensed the TIGER data under CC-BY-SA when he contributed it to OSM. If you received it from him you have to comply with his license terms. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, with my eyes firmly on the upcoming license change, I wonder how we are going to deal with people who have imported data which is suitable from a license point of view, but whom we cannot reach or who do not agree to the CT. For the sake of argument, let's assume that Dave Hansen (who ran the TIGER import) wouldn't agree to the CT. I know he has agreed already, I'm just using this as a what-if example. The original TIGER data is PD, so there's no license problem with keeping it. But Dave certainly has invested a lot of time in planning and executing the import, and he has certainly created copyrightable software in the process, thinking of how to match features in the original data to OSM tags and so on. We know that facts are very unlikely to be protected by CC-BY-SA in the US, no matter how many times you convert them into something else, but let's assume for a moment that Dave was operating out of Europe. Would his act of converting and uploading public domain data to OSM give him rights in that data, so that we'd have to remove it if he does not agree to the CT? Or do we say PD data is PD data, no matter what the person uploading it to OSM says? It may be even easier to think about this if one splits the process into two steps - person A masterfully creates a piece of data conversion software, then person B installs that software, grabs a PD dataset, and hits a button on the software. Who owns the resulting data in OSM? A, who devised the algorithms? B, who pushed the button and used his computing time and network bandwidth? Both? Neither? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
80n, 80n wrote: Dave Hanson relicensed the TIGER data under CC-BY-SA when he contributed it to OSM. If you received it from him you have to comply with his license terms. Just to be clear again, we're only using Dave as an example here; the real Dave Hansen has already agreed to the contributor terms so we're not worrying about him. Generally, CC-BY-SA is a license based on copyright. I can only license something CC-BY-SA if I have a copyright in the first place. Since I do not automatically have a copyright on everything I touch, I'm afraid things are not as easy as you make it sound. If I cut and paste a page of a Shakespeare play and put it on my web page, and write CC-BY-SA 2.0 below it, that's null and void. Copying a page of text doesn't give me a copyright on it, and where I don't have a copyright I cannot license it CC-BY-SA. (I can perhaps say it but it isn't legally binding.) If I download a TIGER file from the US government and mirror it on my web site, I cannot claim copyright or relicense it. Anyone who receives that data through me can do whatever he pleases with it, just as he can if he downloads the file from the government. The question is, how much do I have to do with that file before I can legally (or, if someone fancies going into that, morally) claim a copyright. What if I convert line endings or use an automated process to convert from one character set to another - does that give rise to copyright? Or is it too trivial an action? What if the action I do on the file is highly complex (such as converting from a shape file to OSM format or compiling from C source code to binary), but the action is done by a program where my only input is pressing a button and naming a file? Does copyright then lie with the author of the complex program, or is actually pushing the button on the software in this case non-trivial enough to warrant copyright? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: 80n, 80n wrote: Dave Hanson relicensed the TIGER data under CC-BY-SA when he contributed it to OSM. If you received it from him you have to comply with his license terms. Just to be clear again, we're only using Dave as an example here; the real Dave Hansen has already agreed to the contributor terms so we're not worrying about him. Understood. I was using Dave as an example in the same spirit. Generally, CC-BY-SA is a license based on copyright. I can only license something CC-BY-SA if I have a copyright in the first place. Since I do not automatically have a copyright on everything I touch, I'm afraid things are not as easy as you make it sound. If I cut and paste a page of a Shakespeare play and put it on my web page, and write CC-BY-SA 2.0 below it, that's null and void. Copying a page of text doesn't give me a copyright on it, and where I don't have a copyright I cannot license it CC-BY-SA. (I can perhaps say it but it isn't legally binding.) If I download a TIGER file from the US government and mirror it on my web site, I cannot claim copyright or relicense it. Anyone who receives that data through me can do whatever he pleases with it, just as he can if he downloads the file from the government. The question is, how much do I have to do with that file before I can legally (or, if someone fancies going into that, morally) claim a copyright. What if I convert line endings or use an automated process to convert from one character set to another - does that give rise to copyright? Or is it too trivial an action? What if the action I do on the file is highly complex (such as converting from a shape file to OSM format or compiling from C source code to binary), but the action is done by a program where my only input is pressing a button and naming a file? Does copyright then lie with the author of the complex program, or is actually pushing the button on the software in this case non-trivial enough to warrant copyright? If the author of the complex program made that available (under GPL or whatever) then you can just press the button again. If they didn't share the program with you then you have some code to write. You can't just argue that you *could* have written the code if you wanted to, and so take the output anyway. Doing the right thing is often a matter of understanding the spirit of the law, not trying to twist the letter of the law. Certainly when it comes to OSM contributions this should be the prevailing attitude. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On 16/09/2010 01:12, John Smith wrote: This happens all the time, new CDs are released of out of copyright music that copy is then re-protected. Would that protection only apply to the physical characteristics of the CD, such as printed inlay sleeves? Does the music not remain in the public domain? Similar for Fredrik's web page. The format/decoration that he applied would be copyrightable, but I could freely copy-paste the Shakespeare text from it. Cheers Dave F. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: with my eyes firmly on the upcoming license change, I wonder how we are going to deal with people who have imported data which is suitable from a license point of view, but whom we cannot reach or who do not agree to the CT. My understanding was that the OSMF position is that all contributions fall into that category, and that the request to relicense was merely out of courtesy. On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: The question is, how much do I have to do with that file before I can legally (or, if someone fancies going into that, morally) claim a copyright. This basically boils down to the same question of when, if ever, and to what extent, is OSM copyrightable. My answer being sometimes, to some extent, in some jurisdictions, probably. As I've said before, I think the only way this relicensing can be done cleanly and universally is by starting over with a blank database. Then you can go directly to the sources of the imports. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Does importing data give you a copyright?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 9:19 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 16/09/2010 01:12, John Smith wrote: This happens all the time, new CDs are released of out of copyright music that copy is then re-protected. Would that protection only apply to the physical characteristics of the CD, such as printed inlay sleeves? Does the music not remain in the public domain? I can only quote US law (and Frederick's question is specifically addressed to non-US law), but: The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
