Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
Hi, It's not like the current Creative Commons license for OSM forbids commercial use. This is true but some commercial uses might become un-viable because of the SA license. My standard example is this: Assume you spend half a year making a nice hiking atlas from OSM data, putting a lot of manual work into improving the auto-generated base map. In the process you also collect a lot of data which you contribute to OSM of course (although the license wouldn't even force you to!). Your final product is a printed book that you want to sell for 50$. Which you may - as long as it is CC-BY-SA. This again means that any publisher from, say, China can take your atlas, create a thousand cheap copies of it, and sell them for $19.99. This situation will make it very difficult for you to find a publisher for your original work. So, business models that work around consulting or services in connection with OSM will work, but those built around creating and selling a product less so. I view this as unfortunate because I think that if someone uses his own time and labor to create something on top of OSM then he should be entitled to revenues coming from his time and labor. Of course it is hard to tell which part of the revenue is due to *his* time and labor and which is due to the OSM material that he has built on, and the proportions will surely vary across projects. But still - currently we basically say you own *nothing* of what you create on top of OSM, or more precisely, you do own a part of it but you're not allowed to exercise rights that would normally come with ownership. The new license that is being discussed will probably address this problem by trying to constrain the viral aspect to the data or the database, and granting you more freedom to exercise rights on a non-database derived product. Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
El Jueves, 4 de Septiembre de 2008, Joseph Gentle escribió: [...] There's a bunch of ways even pretty reasonable uses of OSM could leave you legally liable: - You don't acknowledge _everyone_ The CC-by-sa explicitly says that you have to contribute the authors in a reasonable way. There is absolutely no problem if you don't acknowledge everyone. - You don't share-alike the whole webpage your map is embedded in, or the book in which the map exists. Again, derivative work vs. collective work. No problems here either. Cheers, -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Sys Admins paranoia isn't a mental health problem, its a marketable job skill. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
I seemed to have immersed myself in the depths of a healthy debate for which I was not prepared. I don't yet have a full understanding of all the issues, but I think some statements of Richard give a nice summary: Yes, the new licence fixes 1 and 3. It also goes a long way to defining what is permissible under 2 in such a way that is likely to be acceptable to the largest number of people. A public domain-style licence could of course fix everything, but the community ain't gonna agree on it (see legal-talk passim ad infinitum), and OSM is all about the art of the possible. It seems like Joseph and some others are proponets of a putting OSM data in the public domain. While I can understand this as the cleanest or most string free solution, I think it may underestimate the potential for corporate abuse. There are a lot of people out there willing to leech of a community like OSM without making any positive contributions. It happens in the software world a lot. Disclaimer: Im one of those people who have yet to make significant contributions to OSM, so I don't get to have an opinion yet. :] On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 7:32 AM, Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: El Jueves, 4 de Septiembre de 2008, Joseph Gentle escribió: [...] There's a bunch of ways even pretty reasonable uses of OSM could leave you legally liable: - You don't acknowledge _everyone_ The CC-by-sa explicitly says that you have to contribute the authors in a reasonable way. There is absolutely no problem if you don't acknowledge everyone. - You don't share-alike the whole webpage your map is embedded in, or the book in which the map exists. Again, derivative work vs. collective work. No problems here either. Cheers, -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Sys Admins paranoia isn't a mental health problem, its a marketable job skill. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
Hi, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: I think it may underestimate the potential for corporate abuse. There are a lot of people out there willing to leech of a community like OSM without making any positive contributions. It happens in the software world a lot. Yes - but frankly, I don't care whether TeleAtlas or whoever use my data for their commercial gain, as long as I have full access freedom myself. Sure, Google could pull all our PD data into their Map Maker... but I'd read that as a compliment. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 5:06 AM, Frederik Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: I think it may underestimate the potential for corporate abuse. There are a lot of people out there willing to leech of a community like OSM without making any positive contributions. It happens in the software world a lot. Yes - but frankly, I don't care whether TeleAtlas or whoever use my data for their commercial gain, as long as I have full access freedom myself. Sure, Google could pull all our PD data into their Map Maker... but I'd read that as a compliment. Likewise. Further, I am appauled at the idea that, in the process of punishing TeleAtlas we would also stifle other map-related innovations which people could potentially do if only they could use our maps. -J Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Public Domain versus CC Attribution Share Alike License
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 5:29 AM, spaetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 11:51:36AM -0700, Sunburned Surveyor wrote: What can't you do with OSM data under the Creative Commons license that you couldn't do with data in the Public Domain? To me it seems like the only two (2) major differences are sharing your improvements to the data and attributing the work of OSM. That's basically it, correct? A bit more tricky, but I am not a lawer. 1) It's unclear how to attribute data. Theoretically every contributor to OSM data can request that he is to be attributed. I can just see the credits screen scrolling past before you can get to see any map. For this exact reason OSM can not even take any other data that is published under the same license as OSM. We just cannot guarantee proper attribution. Which is different from public domain and is different from the GPL. and sucks majorly. Similar as in software the question remains unclear of what a derived and what a combined work constitutes. If I work at some secret agency and print the locations of the secret nuclear facilities on an OSM map, I can't prevent the Mossad from publishing the thing after I've given it to them over the weekend. The combined work is CC_BY_SA now. Or let me print a book with hiking routes and put lots of OSM maps in there. I want to see the lawyer that guarantees you that you won't be sued as not the whole book is being given away under a CC-BY-SA license. He won't. Part of the problem is that the data is currently owned by the contributors. The problem with this is that, even if most of the OSM people are nice and reasonable, nobody can guarantee that one guy with a vendetta against your project won't try to sue you. There's a bunch of ways even pretty reasonable uses of OSM could leave you legally liable: - You don't acknowledge _everyone_ - You don't share-alike the whole webpage your map is embedded in, or the book in which the map exists. I'm not sure if they would win such a lawsuit (nobody does!!) But even the open possibility means heaps and heaps of potential OSM users / contributors shy away from our lovely maps simply for legal reasons. To be perfectly honest, thats totally crap. -J Is showing additional data on an overlay that can be turned off creating a derivative? Is printing it on a OSM paper map a derivative? Not impossible to answer but no definitive. People will always tell you, ask your lawyer or wait for the judge to decide :-). It's not like the current Creative Commons license for OSM forbids commercial use. So the only organizations that would benefit from mapping data in the public domain would be organizations that can't share data improvements because of security or competition concerns, or those that don't want to attribute OSM as a source. Is that correct? commerical use is fine. but theoretically you need to attribute the whole chain of users in CC-BY-SA. Which can get pretty unwieldy if you want to print a map and you have to credit 500 agencies and 5 mappers and everyone else who ever touched the thin. Note that these views and opiniions are entirely my own and private ones and not OSM view points. And I am not a lawyer either :-). spaetz ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
