Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
Jukka Rahkonen wrote on 19/08/2011 06:30:29 PM: > The blue sea is coming from one database, borders from another and red OSM > motorways from a third. All with one request and end user cannot separate the > sources from the png image. This use-case has been discussed many times on this list, and it may be worthwhile for you to look back through the archives to see the results of these discussions. Although most opinions are given by non-lawyer types, I would say that there is that a fair consensus of opinion that if the OSM data is maintained in a separate database, and presented as a separate layer (say using open layers) then it can be treated as separate. There is little definitive in the way of legal interpretation on this, and most people are applying their own interpretation of the licence, and yours may be as good as anyone else's. ODbL at least may simplify the situation with the resulting tiles when the licence is switched. It is, however, entirely within the bounds of possibility that the current licence may apply virally to any combined tile you could produce with OSM data on it, and if you will suffer loss if it does, then you should seek legal advice and not rely on this list. Even in your worst case you only have to licence what you distribute under CC BY-SA. That which is undistributed can remain unencumbered, and you are under no obligation to distribute it. In other words if you don't distribute your data except as rendered tiles you only need to apply the licence to the tiles, and the modified data or other databases can be kept secure and do not need to be shared. Ian.___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
On 19 August 2011 18:30, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: > James Livingston writes: > > If you can't produce separate tiles, because rendering requires > > accessing both databases at once, then you essentially have > > combined the two databases together into a new one and are then > > rendering based on that. So would assume in this case you'd have > > to distribute the combined database (or the non-OSM one and > > tell people to put them together as the "modification").-- James > > The blue sea is coming from one database, borders from another and red OSM > motorways from a third. All with one request and end user cannot separate > the > sources from the png image. Let's assume that sea and border data are not > allowed be added to OSM or delivered as ODbL. Should we tell WMS users that > they > are not allowed to do the WMS request as &LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_viivat but > they > must make three separate requests and combine the result > I probably didn't make it obvious enough in my post, but the word "can" in "If you can produce separate tiles" is very important to my point. I believe that producing a sea tile from one set of data, a borders tile from another set of data, and the motorsways tile from a third set of data, and then combining them together before sending them to the user would be fine. In this case, the motorway tile would be a Produced Work based on OSM data, so you can choose the license to be one that allows you to combine it with the other tiles. I think that simply overlaying the data should be fine since they are independent of the other data sources On the other hand, if you got road data from OSM, POI data from somewhere else, and then rendered them with an algorithm that hid POIs too close to the road (so the road wasn't hidden), then that would cause a Derivative Database to be created. The Produced Work would depend on both datasources to produce, so I think you'd need to distribute the derivative database and/or additional data. Going back to the original poster: > For the roads, we will update the attributes for additional info the org needs > (i.e. admin types, etc). For the river, we will also update > attributes (i. e. stream orders, etc.). [snipped] > For the other internal data, this will be on a separate db/layer but will probably be > integrated into the osm layers for simple map-based monitoring > reports. It sounds like they need to mix the two datasources before creating a Produced Work (rendering), which to me seems like it would create a derivative database - although it may just be a temporary one in the in-memory data structures of the renderer. In your example, you can mix it after creating the Produced Work(s), so it would be okay. Obviously that's my own opinion, IANAL, etc. -- James ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
James Livingston writes: > If you can't produce separate tiles, because rendering requires > accessing both databases at once, then you essentially have > combined the two databases together into a new one and are then > rendering based on that. So would assume in this case you'd have > to distribute the combined database (or the non-OSM one and > tell people to put them together as the "modification").-- James There is another world behind the tiles which is much more interesting and flexible. Look at the image http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMap&SERVICE=WMS&VERSION=1.1.1&WIDTH=563&HEIGHT=437&LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_viivat&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&FORMAT=image/png&BBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207&SRS=EPSG:3067&STYLES= The blue sea is coming from one database, borders from another and red OSM motorways from a third. All with one request and end user cannot separate the sources from the png image. Let's assume that sea and border data are not allowed be added to OSM or delivered as ODbL. Should we tell WMS users that they are not allowed to do the WMS request as &LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_viivat but they must make three separate requests and combine the result http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMap&SERVICE=WMS&VERSION=1.1.1&WIDTH=563&HEIGHT=437&LAYERS=sea&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&FORMAT=image/png&BBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207&SRS=EPSG:3067&STYLES= http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMap&SERVICE=WMS&VERSION=1.1.1&WIDTH=563&HEIGHT=437&LAYERS=borders&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&FORMAT=image/png&BBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207&SRS=EPSG:3067&STYLES= http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMap&SERVICE=WMS&VERSION=1.1.1&WIDTH=563&HEIGHT=437&LAYERS=osm_viivat&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&FORMAT=image/png&BBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207&SRS=EPSG:3067&STYLES= ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
On 19 August 2011 01:34, Robert Whittaker (OSM) < robert.whittaker+...@gmail.com> wrote: > * I think it's an open question as to whether it's permissible to > create a single layer of tiles from the two databases by overlaying > features from both. It could be argued that this is a collective work, > rather than a single produced work. > I would think this comes down to whether you could produce separate tiles or not. Can you use one database to produce a tile, the second database to produce another tile, and then combine the tiled together? If so, I'd say that it'd be a collective work which is equivalent to distributing the two tiles and merging them when rendered in the browser/gps device/etc. The two tiles you produce can be under any license you like (subject to the requirements of the other db of course), so you can merge them before distribution. If you can't produce separate tiles, because rendering requires accessing both databases at once, then you essentially have combined the two databases together into a new one and are then rendering based on that. So would assume in this case you'd have to distribute the combined database (or the non-OSM one and tell people to put them together as the "modification"). -- James ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
On 9 August 2011 03:17, maning sambale wrote: > I have a mapping project for an organization involved in conservation > and natural resources management. We are planning to create an > internal/local webmapping application to help the organization in > monitoring several projects in an area. We would like to to use a > subset of OSM data and mix the org's internal data in the application. > > We will download the osm data and create our own tiles/wms. For the > roads, we will update the attributes for additional info the org needs > (i.e. admin types, etc). For the river, we will also update > attributes (i. e. stream orders, etc.). We plan to add the additional > geometry to OSM whenever there are improvements, but I don't think the > other specific attributes are needed by OSM. For the other internal > data, this will be on a separate db/layer but will probably be > integrated into the osm layers for simple map-based monitoring > reports. > > Is this a legal use case of OSM data? Specifically, > 1. Is it OK not adding back to the main OSM db the modified > attributes of the OSM layers? > 2. Where should we include attribution requirements? (in the webmap > ala openlayers attribution js, in all map reports, etc.) > 3. What about the use of WMS/Tiles combining both osm and other > internal datasets? My understanding of ODbL is the following: * There's no requirement to contribute any data back to OSM directly, but there may be a requirement to provide some data to people who ask for it. (That's the "share-alike" aspect of the license.) People who request the data from you may then be able to add it back to OSM themselves. * If your use of the OSM data is internal to your organisation, I think that you don't need to worry about any of the attribution or share-alike provisions. * If you publish any data based on a database that's derived from OSM data, then you need to publish that data under the ODbL license (or a compatible one). * If you publish any map tiles that were produced using data from a database that was derived from OSM, then this is a "Produced Work" under ODbL. You can release them under any license (from public domain to all rights reserved) so you can restrict what people can do with the images as much or as little as you like. However, you must provide attribution as specified in 4.3 of the ODbL and also either: (a) Provide that database used to generate the tiles under the ODbL license (or a compatible one) to anyone who asks for it, or (b) Provide details of the modifications / extraction method used to create the database from the OSM data, including any additional data that you added. So publishing map tiles based on a combined OSM + external data database would mean you would have to release the external data you added. * The only way round this is not to combine the OSM data with your additional data in the same database, but to keep the two data-sets entirely separate (which means you can't filter one based on the other, or use one to change attributes in the other). You can then create two tile layers, one from each database, and then display them on top of each other to achieve the desired result. Only the OSM set of tiles comes under the ODbL rules, and so you only have to release the OSM database (or a description of how you obtained it). * I think it's an open question as to whether it's permissible to create a single layer of tiles from the two databases by overlaying features from both. It could be argued that this is a collective work, rather than a single produced work. Hope that helps, Robert. -- Robert Whittaker ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
Thanks Kate! >> Is this a legal use case of OSM data? Specifically, >> 1. Is it OK not adding back to the main OSM db the modified >> attributes of the OSM layers? > > I think since you are releasing the combined data as a product i.e. > WMS this is okay. If you were offering download of the data then you > would need to make everything available. When you mean "download offers" does it cover data use for internal purposes? For instance, a fieldworker gets a subset of the data (wms or vectors itself) for data updating in the field. The osm data (roads and rivers) will be used as a "basemap" but the other internal layers will be updated in the field. > >> 2. Where should we include attribution requirements? (in the webmap >> ala openlayers attribution js, in all map reports, etc.) > > I think you would do this in all of these cases. I am not sure the > most appropriate case for WMS though, Perhaps in the metadata > returned from the GetCapabilities request? Great! I think this is workable. >> 3. What about the use of WMS/Tiles combining both osm and other >> internal datasets? > > This should be fine, these are considered "products". You just need > to continue to attribute OSM appropriately. Thanks! -- cheers, maning -- "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
Hey Maning, I'm going to take a stab at answering this, since I'm trying to understand the implications myself. If I'm wrong hopefully someone will let me know. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:17 AM, maning sambale wrote: > I have a mapping project for an organization involved in conservation > and natural resources management. We are planning to create an > internal/local webmapping application to help the organization in > monitoring several projects in an area. We would like to to use a > subset of OSM data and mix the org's internal data in the application. > Basic data are as follows: > > 1. roads and waterways - from OSM > 2. landuse/landcover with very specific classes - internal org data > 3. project site and status - internal org data > > We will download the osm data and create our own tiles/wms. For the > roads, we will update the attributes for additional info the org needs > (i.e. admin types, etc). For the river, we will also update > attributes (i. e. stream orders, etc.). We plan to add the additional > geometry to OSM whenever there are improvements, but I don't think the > other specific attributes are needed by OSM. For the other internal > data, this will be on a separate db/layer but will probably be > integrated into the osm layers for simple map-based monitoring > reports. > > Is this a legal use case of OSM data? Specifically, > 1. Is it OK not adding back to the main OSM db the modified > attributes of the OSM layers? I think since you are releasing the combined data as a product i.e. WMS this is okay. If you were offering download of the data then you would need to make everything available. > 2. Where should we include attribution requirements? (in the webmap > ala openlayers attribution js, in all map reports, etc.) I think you would do this in all of these cases. I am not sure the most appropriate case for WMS though, Perhaps in the metadata returned from the GetCapabilities request? > 3. What about the use of WMS/Tiles combining both osm and other > internal datasets? This should be fine, these are considered "products". You just need to continue to attribute OSM appropriately. Hope this is helpful and someone corrects me if it doesn't make sense:). -Kate ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
