Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight (Fwd from Louis Proyect)
>I dont want to speculate much about the 'ifs' in history, but I doubt there >would have been an October uprising without thr previous split of Bolsheviks >and Mensheviks. By the same token I think its the tragedy of the German >revolution that the forces around Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg stayed >too long inside the SPD. > >Johannes Yeah, this is just what I was talking about. Lenin's central committee voted against overthrowing Kerensky in October because it went against Bolshevik orthodoxy. The only top leader who backed the April Theses was Trotsky, a career Menshevik. Meanwhile, the Comintern expelled Paul Levi, a disciple of Rosa Luxemburg for opposing Bela Kun's ultraleftism. Then they turned around and renounced the ultraleftism that they were responsible for in the first place. And what happened to Levi? He continued to be excluded from the German CP, which kept going downhill from that point. Louis Proyect The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight (Fwd from Louis Proyect)
Louis Proyect: > What you call consciousness I regard as socialist ideology. In > point of fact, revolutions generally take place in advance of acceptance of > socialist ideology by the great majority. Louis, I dont think that fact is contested at all. > The common misconception of > Marxists idealists is that a decisive majority of a population will become > committed socialists (more specifically, committed to a particular > interpretation of the "Russian questions") prior to a revolution. Average > working people only make revolutions when the old system is seen as > intolerable. I think we have to differ here between 'average working people' and the more advanced sections of the working class. In my understanding of Lenin the different level of conciousness within the working class is the main reason for needing a party. I dont want to speculate much about the 'ifs' in history, but I doubt there would have been an October uprising without thr previous split of Bolsheviks and Mensheviks. By the same token I think its the tragedy of the German revolution that the forces around Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg stayed too long inside the SPD. Johannes ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight (Fwd from Louis Proyect)
>Who has ever claimed that ideological exposure from the sidelines of the class >struggle is enough? Of course the Bolsheviks did take an active and leading >part in the day to day class struggle, but they were not economists, and they >knew that consciousness was the key to a proletarian revolution. Not really. What you call consciousness I regard as socialist ideology. In point of fact, revolutions generally take place in advance of acceptance of socialist ideology by the great majority. The common misconception of Marxists idealists is that a decisive majority of a population will become committed socialists (more specifically, committed to a particular interpretation of the "Russian questions") prior to a revolution. Average working people only make revolutions when the old system is seen as intolerable. Although the Cuban revolution is widely regarded as being vastly inferior to the Russian revolution in terms of the level of consciousness, it is doubtful that there is much difference between the two. Keep in mind that overwhelming majority of the participants in 1917 were peasants who sought an end to the war and land reform, you can even argue that more Cubans were ideologically committed to socialism in 1959. >This is why >while actively fighting and organizing wherever the masses and the working class >in particular were and fought the Bolsheviks led an ideological struggle against >the misleaders and/or all other political forces. You however seem to think that >taking part in ongoing class struggles will lead to a revolution (we are >talking here about a socialist revolution!) by itself. This is the kind of >spontaneism which Lenin always and ardently fought against. Already in 1905 he >wrote in "The Reorganization of the Party" (LW Vol.10, p.32): "The working class >is instinctively, spontaneously Social Democratic, and more than ten years of >work put in by Social Democracy has done a great deal t o t r a n s f o r m >t h i s s p o n t a n e i t y i n t o c o n s c i o u s n e s s." I don't >know how much Lenin took part in demonstrations or strikes when in Switzerland, >but I know that he wrote lots of polemics. What is if not outright idealist so >at least mechanical materialist ans metaphysical in reality is to neatly >separate thinking from 'the living class struggle'. Ever heard about dialectics? > >A.Holberg Mr. Holberg, I have never read anything in your posts except this kind of abstract theorizing. Lenin most certainly did not write and think this way. When you do descend into the concrete, it is to write truly reactionary garbage like this: "On the other hand we might argue that since there is such a lot of money in Germany (albeit not in the right hands) this country should offer medical help without thinking about the costs. If however the costs are an important argument the point that over 50% of those who don't know the language sufficiently die soon after the transplantation seems to be important. The article does not say what has happened to the ones who had transplantation in the US and did not speak English. If it was proved that the argument of the hospital is not true the discussion ought to begin anew. Up to that point however I would reject the racism-'argument' (not that racism isn't widespread in German society, but it is also used as a cheap argument by by a certain number of foreigners who are treated like they are because OF THEIR VERY PERSONAL FAULTS), let alone the 'Nazi'-accusation. We should not let devaluate the notion of 'racism' or 'enemity towards foreigners'." Louis Proyect The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight (Fwd from Louis Proyect)
Who has ever claimed that ideological exposure from the sidelines of the class struggle is enough? Of course the Bolsheviks did take an active and leading part in the day to day class struggle, but they were not economists, and they knew that consciousness was the key to a proletarian revolution.This is why while actively fighting and organizing wherever the masses and the working class in particular were and fought the Bolsheviks led an ideological struggle against the misleaders and/or all other political forces. You however seem to think that taking part in ongoing class struggles will lead to a revolution (we are talking here about a socialist revolution!) by itself. This is the kind of spontaneism which Lenin always and ardently fought against. Already in 1905 he wrote in "The Reorganization of the Party" (LW Vol.10, p.32): "The working class is instinctively, spontaneously Social Democratic, and more than ten years of work put in by Social Democracy has done a great deal t o t r a n s f o r m t h i s s p o n t a n e i t y i n t o c o n s c i o u s n e s s." I don't know how much Lenin took part in demonstrations or strikes when in Switzerland, but I know that he wrote lots of polemics. What is if not outright idealist so at least mechanical materialist ans metaphysical in reality is to neatly separate thinking from 'the living class struggle'. Ever heard about dialectics? A.Holberg PS. I agree with Johannes. If you think that my historical arguments (PCC and Batista etc.)are wrong, please explain why. Are the facts wrong, or is my interpretation of the facts wrong? With another method of discussion we will surely not get anywhere. x Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky schrieb: > Date sent:Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:10:16 -0400 > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight > > >Louis, > > > >I do not think one-liners like this advance the discussion at all. > > > >If you feel Anton is wrong or using stereotypes, explain it. > >Otherwise keep quiet, please. > > > >Johannes > > Anton is wrong because he is using the methodology common to all > idealist deviations from Marxism. It opposes a mental construct to > the > living class struggle. In this mental construct all that is needed to > fight opportunism and reformism is exposure to the truth. So to make > a socialist revolution in Chile it is necessary to explain the > treachery of the popular front. To make a socialist revolution in > Venezuela it is necessary to wake the masses up to the dangers of > populism. > > What's wrong with this methodology? > > It assumes that ideas are the driving force of history rather than > the class struggle. When the Bolsheviks toppled Kerensky, it was not > the result of an ideological debate. It was because they had > participated in every step of the class struggle as leaders from the > 1905 revolt. Workers had confidence in them. In October 1917 an > assault was mounted on the bourgeois government because that > government was seen as violating the democratic rights of working > people and prolonging a miserable war. But to reach that point, the > Bolsheviks had to have accumulated political capital over decades. > > A fool once said that as soon as he accumulated one million dollars, > he would become a capitalist. The same kind of foolishness exists in > revolutionary politics unfortunately. Revolutionary credentials are > accumulated through action in the class struggle that produces > positive results. To attack the reformist enemies of the > revolutionary movement is not sufficient. > > Louis Proyect > > The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org > > Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > Leninist-International mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight (Fwd from Louis Proyect)
Date sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:10:16 -0400 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject:Re: [L-I] What to do if the KLA and NATO fight >Louis, > >I do not think one-liners like this advance the discussion at all. > >If you feel Anton is wrong or using stereotypes, explain it. >Otherwise keep quiet, please. > >Johannes Anton is wrong because he is using the methodology common to all idealist deviations from Marxism. It opposes a mental construct to the living class struggle. In this mental construct all that is needed to fight opportunism and reformism is exposure to the truth. So to make a socialist revolution in Chile it is necessary to explain the treachery of the popular front. To make a socialist revolution in Venezuela it is necessary to wake the masses up to the dangers of populism. What's wrong with this methodology? It assumes that ideas are the driving force of history rather than the class struggle. When the Bolsheviks toppled Kerensky, it was not the result of an ideological debate. It was because they had participated in every step of the class struggle as leaders from the 1905 revolt. Workers had confidence in them. In October 1917 an assault was mounted on the bourgeois government because that government was seen as violating the democratic rights of working people and prolonging a miserable war. But to reach that point, the Bolsheviks had to have accumulated political capital over decades. A fool once said that as soon as he accumulated one million dollars, he would become a capitalist. The same kind of foolishness exists in revolutionary politics unfortunately. Revolutionary credentials are accumulated through action in the class struggle that produces positive results. To attack the reformist enemies of the revolutionary movement is not sufficient. Louis Proyect The Marxism mailing-list: http://www.marxmail.org Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
