Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Matt Wilkie]

What a richness of thoughts and links in this thread. Another project to 
draw inspiration from: *Glitch Rewind*.
https://medium.com/glitch/reinventing-version-control-with-glitch-rewind-914c350da442

"...with Rewind, you can see *every* change, every commit, and walk 
backwards in time through all those edits, just by scrolling back on the 
timeline. It’s as easy as rewinding a video on YouTube"

matt

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Of course, the advantage of Joe Orr's Leo Vue demo is that it provides a
single link to follow, which is what happens with most of the web native
apps, with nothing to install, just a link and you're done (provided
that you have good connectivity, which doesn't happen in a lot of places
of the world, for example just two hours away of here or even in some
parts of capital cities in the Global South).

But neither Leo or Grafoscopio can provide a single link experience.
Demos are just full of text, instructions to follow and software to
install and update, as happens with most of desktop apps, that works
well without connectivity. Fortunately not having a single link to
experience Leo (without reading, downloading, installing, executing and
going to the community for more learning) was not a prerequisite for
current users to experience Leo. We would never know about it, with such
prerequisite.

Cheers,

Offray


On 20/03/18 10:30, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> On 20/03/18 04:02, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>> Comparing the fluency and momentum I get with Pharo with Python
>> or Javascript or similar file based and indirect techs, is
>> difficult to invest time in learning them deeply
>>
>>
>> ​I'm glad you are exploring the Pharo world.  The world doesn't
>> especially need more Python or Javascript programmers ;-)
>> ​
>
> I totally agree :-).
>
>>  
>>
>> I really like the idea of live coding and making code talk being
>> explored in different technologies. I think there is a lot to
>> learn from cross
>> ​ ​
>> pollination of ideas and communities.
>>
>> At least, that's what I'm trying with Grafoscopio, mixing ideas
>> from Leo, IPython, Smalltalk and some of my own harvest.
>>
>>
>> ​Please continue to keep us informed. What I would like to see from
>> you is a demo as thrilling as Joe Orr's LeoVue demo
>> .  Make that only link you
>> send us, so we will be sure to follow it ;-)
>>
>
> I don't have such demo, at least not easily consumable as just
> pointing to a web page, like in Joe's case, because web is not my
> primary focus now (I think that web kind of sucks as a programming
> platform and is really convoluted as a publishing one, but has the big
> advantage of ubiquity). But we have some demos.
>
>   * A short video[1] of what is possible mixing live coding and
> outlining for the case of the Panama Papers[2]
>
> [1]
> 
> http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/dataweek/doc/tip/wiki/grafoscopio/video.html
> [2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1
>
>   * Complete books/manuals done or opened with Grafoscopio, like the
> Grafoscopio Manual[3], The Data Journalism Manual[4][5]
>
> [3]
> 
> http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/doc/tip/Docs/En/Books/Manual/manual.pdf
> [4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/uv/mapeda.pdf
> [5] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/intro.md
>
>   * Customized agile data visualization for a comparative study on
> released medicine information on 16 countries[6].
> [6] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/sdv-infomed
>
> And this semester we are preparing some Twitter Data Selfies
> project... so yes, I will keep you informed. At least with some ideas
> I can give back to a community that has been so welcoming and
> inspiring like this one.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
>
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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,


On 20/03/18 04:02, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> Comparing the fluency and momentum I get with Pharo with Python or
> Javascript or similar file based and indirect techs, is difficult
> to invest time in learning them deeply
>
>
> ​I'm glad you are exploring the Pharo world.  The world doesn't
> especially need more Python or Javascript programmers ;-)
> ​

I totally agree :-).

>  
>
> I really like the idea of live coding and making code talk being
> explored in different technologies. I think there is a lot to
> learn from cross
> ​ ​
> pollination of ideas and communities.
>
> At least, that's what I'm trying with Grafoscopio, mixing ideas
> from Leo, IPython, Smalltalk and some of my own harvest.
>
>
> ​Please continue to keep us informed. What I would like to see from
> you is a demo as thrilling as Joe Orr's LeoVue demo
> .  Make that only link you
> send us, so we will be sure to follow it ;-)
>

I don't have such demo, at least not easily consumable as just pointing
to a web page, like in Joe's case, because web is not my primary focus
now (I think that web kind of sucks as a programming platform and is
really convoluted as a publishing one, but has the big advantage of
ubiquity). But we have some demos.

  * A short video[1] of what is possible mixing live coding and
outlining for the case of the Panama Papers[2]

[1]
http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/dataweek/doc/tip/wiki/grafoscopio/video.html
[2] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/panama-papers-1

  * Complete books/manuals done or opened with Grafoscopio, like the
Grafoscopio Manual[3], The Data Journalism Manual[4][5]

[3]

http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/doc/tip/Docs/En/Books/Manual/manual.pdf
[4] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/uv/mapeda.pdf
[5] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/intro.md

  * Customized agile data visualization for a comparative study on
released medicine information on 16 countries[6].
[6] http://mutabit.com/offray/blog/en/entry/sdv-infomed

And this semester we are preparing some Twitter Data Selfies project...
so yes, I will keep you informed. At least with some ideas I can give
back to a community that has been so welcoming and inspiring like this one.

Cheers,

Offray


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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Edward K. Ream]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

I still remember the day when, just three months after using Pharo and its
> ecosystem, I was able to prototype an outliner with live coding [8] nodes,
> something I was proposing/trying with Leo + IPython without much
> advancements for years
>

​Excellent. Such memories extremely rare.  There are really only three or
four similar memories in Leo's entire history.​


Comparing the fluency and momentum I get with Pharo with Python or
> Javascript or similar file based and indirect techs, is difficult to invest
> time in learning them deeply
>

​I'm glad you are exploring the Pharo world.  The world doesn't especially
need more Python or Javascript programmers ;-)
​


> I really like the idea of live coding and making code talk being explored
> in different technologies. I think there is a lot to learn from cross
> ​ ​
> pollination of ideas and communities.
>
At least, that's what I'm trying with Grafoscopio, mixing ideas from Leo,
> IPython, Smalltalk and some of my own harvest.
>

​Please continue to keep us informed. What I would like to see from you is
a demo as thrilling as Joe Orr's LeoVue demo
.  Make that only link you send
us, so we will be sure to follow it ;-)

Edward

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

On "talking code", I have not found nothing better that Smalltalk,
specially current incarnations (like Pharo[1]) that feed on a long
tradition of live coding[1a], mainly because you can create custom tools
with custom presentations that can accommodate to your work flows and
needs investing just half and hour or less. See for example a moldable
objects inspector in [2][3], a customized and powerful playground with
live objects preview[4], where you play with objects[5] or see your
whole software project as a graph[6]. Other examples, about such
moldable environment that made the "code talk" can be found at [7]

[1] http://pharo.org/
[1a]
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-essence-of-Smalltalk/answer/Dimitris-Chloupis
[2] http://scg.unibe.ch/research/moldableinspector
[3]
http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/the-moldable-gtinspector-deconstructed
[4] http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/introducing-the-gtplayground/
[5] https://vimeo.com/channels/ndc2014/97315968
[6] https://vimeo.com/94724841
[7] https://feenk.com/

I still remember the day when, just three months after using Pharo and
its ecosystem, I was able to prototype an outliner with live coding [8]
nodes, something I was proposing/trying with Leo + IPython without much
advancements for years [9] (that post is older that the original idea).

[8] https://twitter.com/offrayLC/status/500803908424712192
[9]
http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/on-deepness-and-complexity-of-ipython-documents.html

Comparing the fluency and momentum I get with Pharo with Python or
Javascript or similar file based and indirect techs, is difficult to
invest time in learning them deeply (I was kind of an ethernal newbie on
them). But I really like the idea of live coding and making code talk
being explored in different technologies. I think there is a lot to
learn from crosspollination of ideas and communities. At least, that's
what I'm trying with Grafoscopio, mixing ideas from Leo, IPython,
Smalltalk and some of my own harvest.

Cheers,

Offray

On 18/03/18 03:15, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) wrote:
> Great! Many thanks for your encouraging words. 
>
> So I think I should try to explain first what I mean by "talking
> code". The idea is simple: when someone tells you that he is a
> programmer, he's telling you what he DOES. But that's not, by far, all
> he IS. There's much more he can *tell* you about him: how are his
> parents, where does he live, what's his recent history of life events,
> his preferences...
>
> Well, any code we see is normally telling us what it DOES (at least in
> imperative programming languages). Sometimes, if the programmer has
> taken the care and time to add comments, it will tell you WHY it does
> it, it's INTENT and maybe even some reasons WHY it does it in the way
> it does. But I want it to tell me also about it's recent past history
> (git commits), all it's parents (commit authors), who is using it
> (callers), how well is it doing what it does (profiling), what kind of
> data it uses to handle and so on. We have tools to gather all that
> info, but the point is that I want the code itself to *tell me *this
> all the time, in a natural way.
>
> OK, enough poetry. Let's go to the Vision: my ideal IDE is the one
> that tells you all the info related to the code at hand in a
> non-intrusive, expressive, a click-away manner, all the time. The main
> info I would like to have "shown around the code" includes, amongst
> others:
>
>   * Comments, by author
>   * Git info (git log, git blame)
>   * Tests that test that code
>   * Examples of input and output data
>   * Type info
>   * Callers and uses
>   * Bugs that have impacted the code, by severity, date
>   * Benchmarks
>   * Profiling
>
>  (the list above is in no particular order of preference)
>
> The IDE should have to handle the different levels of granularity
> needed (module, class, method, function) and show the info accordingly.
>
> The key feature here is the *density of information without cluttering
> up the visual space*. That's probably the most tricky part. And that's
> the "visual side" of the question: the best the IDE can show all this
> info in a visual expressive way, the better. My idea is that the IDE
> shows summaries of the relevant info (visually or textually) around
> the code and a hover and/or click takes you to the details. Of course,
> the idea is not "new" in any sense. IDEs are already doing some of the
> above with mixed success, but I would like to bring it to Leo.
>
> Do you think that something like this will be possible with Leo? 
>
> Please, your comments Amigos! ;-)
>
> Xavier
>
> On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:36:56 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> ​An exciting goal.  I'll help you any way I can.
>
> Edward
>
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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

Great Terry! For me it's a meaningful first step, just in the perfect 
moment! Thanks a lot for sharing. Amongst all the infos I would like to 
"have close", it is probably one of the most importants.

What I would like to have for tests would be something like this (but 
nicer, of course):



So when the drop-box is clicked, it will show something like this:




And selecting one test from the list will take you to the test code or 
whatever we define.

What do you think? Is something like this possible in any way?

As you probably remember, I already asked for something similar in the past 
related to an easy way to visualize node tags in the headlines. Well, this 
goes in the same direction regarding the "extension of Leo's outline 
rendering capabilities"... or how would you call that to give it a proper 
name?

Xavier

On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 11:28:53 AM UTC-3, Terry Brown wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:15:04 -0700 (PDT) 
> "Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)" > wrote: 
>
> https://github.com/leo-editor/snippets/blob/master/utils/pytest_switch.py 
>
> is an example of how Leo can help bring a function and its unit test 
> closer together.  That code could be made smarter, in particular it 
> should search upwards for an existing tests folder better, but just 
> pointing it out. 
>
> You do feel very virtuous when you write the test for a function before 
> the function :-) 
>
> Cheers -Terry 
>

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Terry Brown]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
"Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)"  wrote:

> OK, enough poetry. Let's go to the Vision: my ideal IDE is the one
> that tells you all the info related to the code at hand in a
> non-intrusive, expressive, a click-away manner, all the time. The
> main info I would like to have "shown around the code" includes,
> amongst others:
> 
>- Comments, by author
>- Git info (git log, git blame)
>- Tests that test that code

https://github.com/leo-editor/snippets/blob/master/utils/pytest_switch.py

is an example of how Leo can help bring a function and its unit test
closer together.  That code could be made smarter, in particular it
should search upwards for an existing tests folder better, but just
pointing it out.

You do feel very virtuous when you write the test for a function before
the function :-)

Cheers -Terry

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

Great! Many thanks for your encouraging words. 

So I think I should try to explain first what I mean by "talking code". The 
idea is simple: when someone tells you that he is a programmer, he's 
telling you what he DOES. But that's not, by far, all he IS. There's much 
more he can *tell* you about him: how are his parents, where does he live, 
what's his recent history of life events, his preferences...

Well, any code we see is normally telling us what it DOES (at least in 
imperative programming languages). Sometimes, if the programmer has taken 
the care and time to add comments, it will tell you WHY it does it, it's 
INTENT and maybe even some reasons WHY it does it in the way it does. But I 
want it to tell me also about it's recent past history (git commits), all 
it's parents (commit authors), who is using it (callers), how well is it 
doing what it does (profiling), what kind of data it uses to handle and so 
on. We have tools to gather all that info, but the point is that I want the 
code itself to *tell me *this all the time, in a natural way.

OK, enough poetry. Let's go to the Vision: my ideal IDE is the one that 
tells you all the info related to the code at hand in a non-intrusive, 
expressive, a click-away manner, all the time. The main info I would like 
to have "shown around the code" includes, amongst others:

   - Comments, by author
   - Git info (git log, git blame)
   - Tests that test that code
   - Examples of input and output data
   - Type info
   - Callers and uses
   - Bugs that have impacted the code, by severity, date
   - Benchmarks
   - Profiling

 (the list above is in no particular order of preference)

The IDE should have to handle the different levels of granularity needed 
(module, class, method, function) and show the info accordingly.

The key feature here is the *density of information without cluttering up 
the visual space*. That's probably the most tricky part. And that's the 
"visual side" of the question: the best the IDE can show all this info in a 
visual expressive way, the better. My idea is that the IDE shows summaries 
of the relevant info (visually or textually) around the code and a hover 
and/or click takes you to the details. Of course, the idea is not "new" in 
any sense. IDEs are already doing some of the above with mixed success, but 
I would like to bring it to Leo.

Do you think that something like this will be possible with Leo? 

Please, your comments Amigos! ;-)

Xavier

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:36:56 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> ​An exciting goal.  I'll help you any way I can.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 7:11 AM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
xgdomi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to admit that we are on the same boat here! After 30 years of
> programming, with 20+ programming languages including rare gems like
> CLIPPER and CHILL, I knew I was at home when I found Python. And I'm not
> going to change this, at least on this life! But I know that we *can get
> the goal with Python* (maybe with some help from the javascript world,
> but under control :-) ). My focus is NOT so much on the data visualization
> side of the question, but on the "talking code" side of it, to say it in
> some way.
>

​An exciting goal.  I'll help you any way I can.

Edward

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

I have to admit that we are on the same boat here! After 30 years of 
programming, with 20+ programming languages including rare gems like 
CLIPPER and CHILL, I knew I was at home when I found Python. And I'm not 
going to change this, at least on this life! But I know that we *can get 
the goal with Python* (maybe with some help from the javascript world, but 
under control :-) ). My focus is NOT so much on the data visualization side 
of the question, but on the "talking code" side of it, to say it in some 
way.

The main limits to this goal are ourselves. Always!

I will be glad to have you in this journey for the live code! Do we start?

Xavier

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 6:50:28 AM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
>
> ​As I understand him, Offray would agree with you.  It's a highly laudable 
> goal.  I just don't want to give up python to accomplish it.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Xavier G. Domingo (xgid) <
xgdomi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Matt, thanks for sharing this!
>
> It seems that Bostock is a strong follower of Bret Victor, which I've
> found always quite inspiring on better ways of programming. The work at
> observablehq.com  seems strongly focused
> on intensive data manipulation and visualization, but the general idea of
> "live code" it's something I think we all should be after in some way, to
> make someday programming be a real joy for anyone. I'm on this quest also!
>

​As I understand him, Offray would agree with you.  It's a highly laudable
goal.  I just don't want to give up python to accomplish it.

Edward

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

Hi Matt, thanks for sharing this! 

It seems that Bostock is a strong follower of Bret Victor, which I've found 
always quite inspiring on better ways of programming. The work at 
observablehq.com  seems strongly focused on 
intensive data manipulation and visualization, but the general idea of 
"live code" it's something I think we all should be after in some way, to 
make someday programming be a real joy for anyone. I'm on this quest also!

Xavier

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 1:02:17 PM UTC-3, Matt Wilkie wrote:
>
> I'm continually in awe of Mike Bostock's work, c.f. Data Driven Documents (
> d3.org). Impressive as that is, it's his power to clearly explain data, 
> visualization and programming in cohesive bundle that transforms my 
> thinking which impresses me most. I've not yet learned to do anything 
> substantive in javascript, but reading Bostock's material has given me 
> insight into own python projects. And a thirst to do more!
>
> https://medium.com/@mbostock/a-better-way-to-code-2b1d2876a3a0
>
> Just, wow.
>
> Matt
>
>
>

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:44 PM, Matt Wilkie  wrote:

>
> I'm continually in awe of Mike Bostock's work, c.f. Data Driven Documents (
>> d3.org). ...
>>
>
> should have been https://d3js.org/
>

​Yes, d3 is cool.

Edward

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Matt Wilkie]

> I'm continually in awe of Mike Bostock's work, c.f. Data Driven Documents (
> d3.org). ...
>

should have been https://d3js.org/

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Matt Wilkie]

> ​I'm wary of flashy demos that don't actually involve programming.
>

Wariness on the internet is justified! Here's the real thing: 
https://beta.observablehq.com/

matt

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Re: OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Matt Wilkie  wrote:

> I'm continually in awe of Mike Bostock's work, c.f. Data Driven Documents (
> d3.org). Impressive as that is, it's his power to clearly explain data,
> visualization and programming in cohesive bundle that transforms my
> thinking which impresses me most. I've not yet learned to do anything
> substantive in javascript, but reading Bostock's material has given me
> insight into own python projects. And a thirst to do more!
>
> https://medium.com/@mbostock/a-better-way-to-code-2b1d2876a3a0
>
> Just, wow.
>

​I'm wary of flashy demos that don't actually involve programming.

Edward

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OT: A better way to code, by Mike Bostock

[Matt Wilkie]

I'm continually in awe of Mike Bostock's work, c.f. Data Driven Documents (
d3.org). Impressive as that is, it's his power to clearly explain data, 
visualization and programming in cohesive bundle that transforms my 
thinking which impresses me most. I've not yet learned to do anything 
substantive in javascript, but reading Bostock's material has given me 
insight into own python projects. And a thirst to do more!

https://medium.com/@mbostock/a-better-way-to-code-2b1d2876a3a0

Just, wow.

Matt


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